Twilight II Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. Something visible happens when people receive the Holy Spirit. Simon did not ask for the ability to do other miracles, he asked to be able to give the Holy Spirit. What did Simon see? That the Holy Spirit was given by the disciples, through the laying on of hands. It does not say that there was a "specific" visible manifestation. "saw" here, could just as easily mean "comprehended". There is no mention of a specific "sign" in this verse, although there were many signs of the receipt of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during that time. But I am not talking about the "outpouring" of the Holy Spirit. I am talking about the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. The "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit was given before Pentecost. The "outpouring" was given for evangelism. But the point is this, the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit is received by faith. It may be accompanied by signs, but it is not "required" to do so. Mark :-)
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. Something visible happens when people receive the Holy Spirit. Simon did not ask for the ability to do other miracles, he asked to be able to give the Holy Spirit. What did Simon see? That the Holy Spirit was given by the disciples, through the laying on of hands. It does not say that there was a "specific" visible manifestation. "saw" here, could just as easily mean "comprehended". There is no mention of a specific "sign" in this verse, although there were many signs of the receipt of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during that time. But I am not talking about the "outpouring" of the Holy Spirit. I am talking about the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. The "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit was given before Pentecost. The "outpouring" was given for evangelism. But the point is this, the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit is received by faith. It may be accompanied by signs, but it is not "required" to do so. Mark :-) Where does the Bible differentiate between the two ? How long before Pentecost are we talking, because Jesus said the Spirit could not be given until after His death. Where does the Bible tell us how to receive the indwelling and how to go on to receive the outpouring, and explain how they differ ? You're saying that he saw people get healed, but he offered money to be able to give something that had no visible signs, no evidence, and no change beyond the fact that he somehow 'comprehended' it had happened ? Why does that make more sense than the obvious, that something happened that impressed him ?
Twilight II Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Where does the Bible differentiate between the two ? How long before Pentecost are we talking, because Jesus said the Spirit could not be given until after His death. Where does the Bible tell us how to receive the indwelling and how to go on to receive the outpouring, and explain how they differ ? You're saying that he saw people get healed, but he offered money to be able to give something that had no visible signs, no evidence, and no change beyond the fact that he somehow 'comprehended' it had happened ? Why does that make more sense than the obvious, that something happened that impressed him ?
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Where does the Bible differentiate between the two ? How long before Pentecost are we talking, because Jesus said the Spirit could not be given until after His death. Where does the Bible tell us how to receive the indwelling and how to go on to receive the outpouring, and explain how they differ ? You're saying that he saw people get healed, but he offered money to be able to give something that had no visible signs, no evidence, and no change beyond the fact that he somehow 'comprehended' it had happened ? Why does that make more sense than the obvious, that something happened that impressed him ? The "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit was given in the "upper room". Jesus went to heaven, received the Holy Spirit to give as a gift and then "gave" it to the disciples: Quote: Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: The disciples were given the "indwelling" of the Holy Ghost here. Notice that Jesus "breathed" on them. Exactly as He did in the garden of Eden with Adam. This was "new life" that was given. Then there were 40 days where they were taught about the "kingdom of God". But I do not want to give you too much information at once. This does not say they received the Spirit then, it says He told them to. Thomas was not there at the time, did he then miss out ? Where does the New Testament explain how to receive the Spirit in this way, that is, what pattern do people follow to go along with what happened when the Apostles had Jesus there to breathe on them ? When Peter says in Acts 10 that Cornelius has received the Spirit, the same as happened to them 'in the beginning', why is he referring to Acts 2 and not John 20 as the 'beginning' ? I can see how you're reading this one verse. I don't see how it establishes something that follows on through the rest of the Bible record, and can therefore be used to describe the experience of Christians today. I guess the bigger question is, if nothing happened in Acts 8, how did they know they DIDN'T have the Spirit, when they were baptised believers who had experienced miracles ?
Twilight II Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II The "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit was given in the "upper room". Jesus went to heaven, received the Holy Spirit to give as a gift and then "gave" it to the disciples: Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: The disciples were given the "indwelling" of the Holy Ghost here. Notice that Jesus "breathed" on them. Exactly as He did in the garden of Eden with Adam. This was "new life" that was given. Then there were 40 days where they were taught about the "kingdom of God". But I do not want to give you too much information at once. This does not say they received the Spirit then, it says He told them to. Thomas was not there at the time, did he then miss out ? Where does the New Testament explain how to receive the Spirit in this way, that is, what pattern do people follow to go along with what happened when the Apostles had Jesus there to breathe on them ? When Peter says in Acts 10 that Cornelius has received the Spirit, the same as happened to them 'in the beginning', why is he referring to Acts 2 and not John 20 as the 'beginning' ? I can see how you're reading this one verse. I don't see how it establishes something that follows on through the rest of the Bible record, and can therefore be used to describe the experience of Christians today. I guess the bigger question is, if nothing happened in Acts 8, how did they know they DIDN'T have the Spirit, when they were baptised believers who had experienced miracles ?
Twilight II Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I will be back later to read your response. Are you an Adventist by the way?
ClubV12 Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I won't be looking for any particular "miracle", like tongues, as "proof" of anything. We are told the devil WILL be working miracles that will fool many, if possible, even the very elect. The "proof" will be in a spiritual form, based on principles, not what we see or hear. God's people WILL know each other. Some may indeed be given the gift to speak literally in other languages if that is needed to proclaim the gospel in a foreign land. But it would be a mistake to look for miracles in general.
Gibs Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 I wonder if the trouble is that the "lying" spirit is far more prevelent than the the Spirit of Truth of God these last days. There is no doubt that the spirit in many believe it is the Spirit of God and is not. Who then can convince that one of that? 1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 It seems you have some preconceived ideas that do not allow you to read this text plainly.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I will be back later to read your response. Are you an Adventist by the way? No. I am someone trying to understand the SDA because a friend of mine won't talk to me anymore because she kept wanting to discuss SDA doctrine and was upset when I asked questions from the Bible which she and her friends could not answer.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I won't be looking for any particular "miracle", like tongues, as "proof" of anything. We are told the devil WILL be working miracles that will fool many, if possible, even the very elect. The "proof" will be in a spiritual form, based on principles, not what we see or hear. God's people WILL know each other. Some may indeed be given the gift to speak literally in other languages if that is needed to proclaim the gospel in a foreign land. But it would be a mistake to look for miracles in general. None of this is scriptural except the reference to Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. Although this does not refer to the devil directly. None of this means that the devil can do wonders and God will not do anything. Proof that is not visible makes Acts 8 make no sense at all. It also is incompatible with Acts 2, 10 and 19. It's also incompatible with the body of scripture that explains why all Christians speak in tongues, or the other miracles that are seen in the church. The idea that tongues is used to preach the Gospel is also unbiblical. There is no record of anyone hearing a message in their language, having no other way to talk to the members of the church, and just going off and starting their own church without any support from the body of believers. The bible also says: 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 I wonder if the trouble is that the "lying" spirit is far more prevelent than the the Spirit of Truth of God these last days. There is no doubt that the spirit in many believe it is the Spirit of God and is not. Who then can convince that one of that? 1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Is 'the lying spirit', the devil ? Does this mean you believe that when I asked God to save my soul, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the devil answered me ?
Gibs Posted November 29, 2011 Author Posted November 29, 2011 BibleOnly, You asked, Is 'the lying spirit', the devil ? Does this mean you believe that when I asked God to save my soul, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the devil answered me ? It could be I suppose if you went with known sin without repentance of it. That would be presumption and not true faith. When one does go with repentance of all his known sin, yes He is true and faithful to forgive and then He keeps bringing more to you to repent of one after another and it is a growing process called sanctification by many. Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. So it behoves each faithful one to be on his toes so to speak. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
BibleOnly Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 BibleOnly, You asked, Is 'the lying spirit', the devil ? Does this mean you believe that when I asked God to save my soul, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the devil answered me ? It could be I suppose if you went with known sin without repentance of it. That would be presumption and not true faith. When one does go with repentance of all his known sin, yes He is true and faithful to forgive and then He keeps bringing more to you to repent of one after another and it is a growing process called sanctification by many. Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. So it behoves each faithful one to be on his toes so to speak. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. So, repentance means in your mind having a list of all your specific sins and being specifically sorry for each one ? And, if I forget a sin, Satan can answer when I call on God faithfully ?
Twilight II Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II I will be back later to read your response. Are you an Adventist by the way? No. I am someone trying to understand the SDA because a friend of mine won't talk to me anymore because she kept wanting to discuss SDA doctrine and was upset when I asked questions from the Bible which she and her friends could not answer. I suspect that because you "want" tongues to be a sign possibly, that it stops you understanding the text we have opened up for discussion. There are only 2 instances of God breathing on man. Creation in Eden. Jesus in the upper room. Both times the gift of the Spirit are given. But if you are expecting the bible to fit your ideas about tongues, then of course this text will not be clear to you. You will not be able to receive it plainly. Thank you for your confirmation about your beliefs, it helps in the discussion. I am SDA, to the core. I am also a Christian that has received the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the merits of Jesus Christ. Just to let you know where I come from. :-)
BibleOnly Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 I suspect that because you "want" tongues to be a sign possibly, that it stops you understanding the text we have opened up for discussion. There are only 2 instances of God breathing on man. Creation in Eden. Jesus in the upper room. Both times the gift of the Spirit are given.
Twilight II Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 Jesus said: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost", at the very same time He breathed on the disciples. And you do not think that they received the Holy Ghost right then? I am sorry, but I will not waste time argue with someone who cannot see the obvious just because they want "tongues" to be "the" test. Tongues (gobbledegook) is not the test of the receipt of the Holy Spirit and never has been.
BibleOnly Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 OK, well, you're welcome to refuse to talk to me, obviously. But, my questions remain: 1 - what happened in Acts 2 2 - why is tongues the sign of the Spirit in Acts 2, 10 and 19 ? 3 - why do Acts 8 and 19 indicate that it's possible for someone to be a baptised believer and not have the Holy Spirit ? 4 - if this is possible, how do we know we have the Spirit ? 5 - what does it mean to worship in the Spirit ? 6 - how does the verse you're talking about indicate they received the Spirit, then went on to receive it again in Acts 2 ? How does the Bible differentiate between the two, and explain how they differ ? How does the example of Jesus breathing on them, provide a pattern or a lesson we can apply to the question of how we are to receive the Holy Spirit ? If Jesus is not appearing and breathing on us, is it reasonable to apply the lessons throughout Acts instead as a pattern we can follow ?
Twilight II Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 OK, well, you're welcome to refuse to talk to me, obviously. But, my questions remain: 1 - what happened in Acts 2 2 - why is tongues the sign of the Spirit in Acts 2, 10 and 19 ? 3 - why do Acts 8 and 19 indicate that it's possible for someone to be a baptised believer and not have the Holy Spirit ? 4 - if this is possible, how do we know we have the Spirit ? 5 - what does it mean to worship in the Spirit ? 6 - how does the verse you're talking about indicate they received the Spirit, then went on to receive it again in Acts 2 ? How does the Bible differentiate between the two, and explain how they differ ? How does the example of Jesus breathing on them, provide a pattern or a lesson we can apply to the question of how we are to receive the Holy Spirit ? If Jesus is not appearing and breathing on us, is it reasonable to apply the lessons throughout Acts instead as a pattern we can follow ? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was given to prepare the disciples for the outpouring. It also signifies the "born again" experience. It is also the promise of the New Covenant. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was given for the specific purpose of spreading the gospel. The gift of tongues (languages) was one of the gifts given for the spread of the gospel. The gift of "languages" is not "evidence" of the gift of either the indwelling or outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It was a functional gift to aid the spread of the gospel. Nothing more. But many get confused by the "false" gift of "tongues" because they are looking for evidence by experience, rathern than by faith. Emotion becomes the test... And so many are then deceived because they get high on emotion and think that ecstatic experience is something from God. But it isn't.
BibleOnly Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly OK, well, you're welcome to refuse to talk to me, obviously. But, my questions remain: 1 - what happened in Acts 2 2 - why is tongues the sign of the Spirit in Acts 2, 10 and 19 ? 3 - why do Acts 8 and 19 indicate that it's possible for someone to be a baptised believer and not have the Holy Spirit ? 4 - if this is possible, how do we know we have the Spirit ? 5 - what does it mean to worship in the Spirit ? 6 - how does the verse you're talking about indicate they received the Spirit, then went on to receive it again in Acts 2 ? How does the Bible differentiate between the two, and explain how they differ ? How does the example of Jesus breathing on them, provide a pattern or a lesson we can apply to the question of how we are to receive the Holy Spirit ? If Jesus is not appearing and breathing on us, is it reasonable to apply the lessons throughout Acts instead as a pattern we can follow ? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was given to prepare the disciples for the outpouring. It also signifies the "born again" experience.
Twilight II Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 I could show you, but let me ask you a question. Are you currently "practicing" tongues?
Gibs Posted November 29, 2011 Author Posted November 29, 2011 A general reply, Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Ac 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Ac 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Ac 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Ac 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Members phkrause Posted November 29, 2011 Members Posted November 29, 2011 This is obviously not true for three reasons. 1 - there is no record in the Bible of tongues ever being used to preach So what is this? Acts 2:1 The festival of Shavu'ot arrived, and the believers all gathered together in one place. 2 Suddenly there came a sound from the sky like the roar of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then they saw what looked like tongues of fire, which separated and came to rest on each one of them. 4 They were all filled with the Ruach HaKodesh and began to talk in different languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak. 5 Now there were staying in Yerushalayim religious Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd gathered; they were confused, because each one heard the believers speaking in his own language. 7 Totally amazed, they asked, "How is this possible? Aren't all these people who are speaking from the Galil? 8 How is it that we hear them speaking in our native languages? 9 We are Parthians, Medes, Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Y'hudah, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, 10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome; 11 Jews by birth and proselytes; Jews from Crete and from Arabia. . . ! How is it that we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great things God has done?" 12 Amazed and confused, they all went on asking each other, "What can this mean?" 13 But others made fun of them and said, "They've just had too much wine!" 14 Then Kefa stood up with the Eleven and raised his voice to address them: "You Judeans, and all of you staying here in Yerushalayim! Let me tell you what this means! Listen carefully to me! 15 "These people aren't drunk, as you suppose - it's only nine in the morning. 16 No, this is what was spoken about through the prophet Yo'el: 17 'ADONAI says: "In the Last Days, I will pour out from my Spirit upon everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my slaves, both men and women, will I pour out from my Spirit in those days; and they will prophesy. If its not the 12 preaching? Than what do you think they are doing? Talking to each other? This is what Jesus means when he says speaking in tongues. So when you talk to others that don't speak your language, they understand what your saying to them, not some jibberish that no one understands. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 I could show you, but let me ask you a question. Are you currently "practicing" tongues? I am not sure what you mean. What do you mean by 'currently' and what do you mean by 'practicing' ?
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 A general reply, Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Ac 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Ac 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Ac 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Ac 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Yes, I am well aware of what Acts 2 says. This does not answer anything I said, I never pretended it did not say this. I said, rather, that Peter still needed to get up and preach in the known language of the area, and people needed to speak that language also, to report that they felt they had understood tongues. This does not explain why Paul said that no man understands tongues, but only God, and that it is God we speak to when we speak in tongues, not men. You can't take a passage that proves one point that I agreed on, and suggest that this invalidates other passages of the Bible that contradict your interpretation of it.
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