BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 "except for the Study Bible with EGW Comments. " Well, I guess if your church publishes a Bible, you may well feel you're more likely to agree with the comments. I would still say if my church published a Bible, I would not assume I agreed with it all, I'd still keep a separation between scripture and the ideas of men, even men whose views I respect.
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Wow - I did not know that. I keep a JW bible in the house, to show JWs when they come to the door that their translation supports my view and contradicts theirs. I don't see Mormons at the door too often, but I should get one and look at it, just in case.
Twilight II Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Someone who speaks in tongues speaks not to men, but God. They do not edify anyone else. They do not understand what they are saying. No man does. 1 Cor 14:2 is really enough to prove this, the other verses just expand on it. 14:5 is the conclusion. That prayer should be spiritual and understandable. And singing should be spiritual and understandable. So Pauls conclusion is completely different to how you are painting it. You are disagreeing with the bible, but you cannot see it. I suspect because you are addicted to the emotional pull of speaking in "tongues". Did you know many pagan cultures dance around fires and sing "in tongues"? This heresy has tried to come into the church many times, as indeed it has now.
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 14:5 is the conclusion. That prayer should be spiritual and understandable. And singing should be spiritual and understandable. So Pauls conclusion is completely different to how you are painting it.
Lysimachus Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Well said Twilight II. That settles it. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article,Β Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic InterpretationΒ (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book,Β Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook,Β Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 ROTFL!!! Of course it is. You need to be wary of thinking that just because someone agrees with you, that proves you are right. When in the Bible were those who followed God, in any sort of majority ?
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 14:5 is the conclusion. That prayer should be spiritual and understandable. And singing should be spiritual and understandable. So Pauls conclusion is completely different to how you are painting it.
Gibs Posted December 4, 2011 Author Posted December 4, 2011 There is false tongues of another spirit and then there is true intelligible tongues, AcΒ 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. AcΒ 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? AcΒ 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? With the TRUE gift comes purpose. 1JoΒ 4:4 ΒΆ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 There is false tongues of another spirit and then there is true intelligible tongues, AcΒ 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. AcΒ 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? AcΒ 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? With the TRUE gift comes purpose. 1JoΒ 4:4 ΒΆ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. You are wrong. The Bible never says that, not once. Only one thing you said was true: "With the TRUE gift comes purpose." The purpose of tongues, taken from the same chapter that explains that only God understands tongues, is as a sign to unbelievers. Other verses tell us that in our prayer, the purpose of tongues is to give us the words, as we don't know what to pray for. Other verses tell us that this is how we build ourself in the faith and keep ourselves in God's love. I already said, tongues were understood in Acts 2, I know that. But, you can't tell a long story based on one verse and disregard what other, more detailed passages say. 1 Cor 12-14 is the longest passage on tongues in the Bible. It NEVER talks about 'false tongues', nor does the Bible anywhere suggest that Satan can answer to corrupt people calling on God. It does say that only God understands speaking in tongues. You can't just ignore the Bible on the basis that you have something to prove, that is to say, on the basis that if tongues are not false, you have to explain why tongues do not occur in your church.
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gibs There is false tongues of another spirit and then there is true intelligible tongues, AcΒ 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. AcΒ 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? AcΒ 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? With the TRUE gift comes purpose. 1JoΒ 4:4 ΒΆ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. You are wrong. The Bible never says that, not once. Only one thing you said was true: "With the TRUE gift comes purpose." The purpose of tongues, taken from the same chapter that explains that only God understands tongues, is as a sign to unbelievers. Other verses tell us that in our prayer, the purpose of tongues is to give us the words, as we don't know what to pray for. Other verses tell us that this is how we build ourself in the faith and keep ourselves in God's love. I already said, tongues were understood in Acts 2, I know that. But, you can't tell a long story based on one verse and disregard what other, more detailed passages say. 1 Cor 12-14 is the longest passage on tongues in the Bible. It NEVER talks about 'false tongues', nor does the Bible anywhere suggest that Satan can answer to corrupt people calling on God. It does say that only God understands speaking in tongues. You can't just ignore the Bible on the basis that you have something to prove, that is to say, on the basis that if tongues are not false, you have to explain why tongues do not occur in your church. So if a non-believer saw a pagan ceremony where they engaged in "vain babblings" and then watched a Christian ceremony, where they engaged in "vain babblings", they would know that the Christian version is a benefit to them? How so?
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Quote: So if you do it, it is inspired, if a tribal witch doctor does it, exactly the same thing, it is not inspired? I am sorry, your post looks to me like my post reposted with only this comment added. I can't work out why you posted exactly what I did, without extra quotes, and just added this ? It's only the same to the natural mind. If you don't understand spiritual things, then you only see the flesh. But, a tribal witch doctor does not speak in a language God gave him because he doesn't know what to pray for. If he spoke in tongues, the Bible says that he could not curse God. If he does not have the Holy Spirit, odds are that he's not speaking a spiritual language, but gibberish. Odds are that Christ is the last thing on his mind. THIS is Satan's counterfeit to confuse unspiritual people, not tongues in the church. Note that you claim that Satan has healed me of my diseases, delivered me from my addictions and taken away all the things that held me back from being happy in life. I pointed out already what Jesus said to people who make such claims, a house divided against itself cannot stand. The witch doctor does not deliver anyone from anything. That is the nature of sin and of Satan's counterfeits, they do no-one any good and are found to be empty in the end. You make this claim by adding to the Bible, there is no verse that indicates that there is ever such a thing a 'fake tongues'. You need to both ignore passages of the Bible, and add to the Bible, to reach your conclusion and then you need to tell extra Biblical stories about witch doctors to ram your point home.
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 So if a non-believer saw a pagan ceremony where they engaged in "vain babblings" and then watched a Christian ceremony, where they engaged in "vain babblings", they would know that the Christian version is a benefit to them? How so? Good question. The answer is, in part, in 1 Cor 12-14. Tongues in the church should only occur with interpretation, 2 or at the most 3. What this means is, God illustrates what tongues is, AND that it's a real language, by inspiring people through the Holy Spirit to interpret it. The rest of the difference comes in seeing people lay hands on the sick and they recover, and indeed in the 'love we show one for another', the whole of the experience would show what the power of God is in the church, but specifically, tongues would be interpreted.
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Well said Gib's. That settles it. Weird that we 'settled it' by ignoring, instead of discussing, the scriptures I pointed out.
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Bibleonly. You have been shown that tongues was a specific gift of languages from the Bible, which you have refused to accept. You have been shown that Paul encouraged prayer to be spiritual and understandable for all, and not to speak those things that someone else cannot understand. You have been shown that what you practice is no different to what an African Witch Doctor practices. Yet you have had not one single "alarm bell" going off in your mind yet? And that ignores the fact you cannot accept that Jesus said: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" and they received it there and then (you have to excuse that text by stating it was yet future). And in all of this we haven't even begun to really discuss the deeper things of the Holy Spirit, because you will not let go of this false manifestation of "tongues" as some confirmation that the Bible never states one needs. Where can we go from here with you? You do not heed our warnings, you cannot accept the simplest text in its plainest meanings. What is it you want from us?
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Bibleonly. You have been shown that tongues was a specific gift of languages from the Bible, which you have refused to accept.
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Quote: Wrong, I've been 'shown' one instance that I knew about, being a reader of the Bible. You've been shown from the Bible that Paul says that tongues in general is understood only by God, which you choose to reject, by inventing 'fake tongues' something the Bible never mentions. Why would it mention fake "languages"?
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Paul says that tongues in general is understood only by God, which you choose to reject, Where does Paul say that tongues "in general" is understood only by God? Can you cite the verse please?
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 1 - given that Jesus does not appear to us, and breathe on us, if this verse means what you say, it provides no pattern for us to follow Did you receive a visible "tongue of fire" recently? Maybe a dove appeared above you when you were baptised? I hope you see my point? ------------------ The gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was given first to the disciples personally by Jesus, they then administered that gift during the apostolic age. Then the Bible became the source of the promises that gave that gift when the scriptures were given. Today we receive it by faith in the promises of God. From the Bible and through the Holy Spirit, who is Christ's representative on earth. When the Holy Spirit comes to us to give us the gift, it is the same as Christ Himself.
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Quote: Wrong, I've been 'shown' one instance that I knew about, being a reader of the Bible. You've been shown from the Bible that Paul says that tongues in general is understood only by God, which you choose to reject, by inventing 'fake tongues' something the Bible never mentions. Why would it mention fake "languages"? Because you contend this is what 1 Cor 12-14 is about. Why would it mention them, indeed, as they don't exist.
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Paul says that tongues in general is understood only by God, which you choose to reject, Where does Paul say that tongues "in general" is understood only by God? Can you cite the verse please? You must be joking. 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1Cr 14:6 ΒΆ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. I've quoted these several times before.
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly 1 - given that Jesus does not appear to us, and breathe on us, if this verse means what you say, it provides no pattern for us to follow Did you receive a visible "tongue of fire" recently? Maybe a dove appeared above you when you were baptised? I hope you see my point?
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Because you contend this is what 1 Cor 12-14 is about. Why would it mention them, indeed, as they don't exist.
BibleOnly Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Because you contend this is what 1 Cor 12-14 is about. Why would it mention them, indeed, as they don't exist. That is not what I have contended. I have contended that the "tongues" in the pentecostal churches is not "languages" as discussed in the Bible. You are arguing that "languages" in the Bible did not have to be coherent to anyone except God.
Twilight II Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Where does Paul say that tongues "in general" is understood only by God? Can you cite the verse please? You must be joking. 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1Cr 14:6 ΒΆ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. I've quoted these several times before.
Recommended Posts