Is The Holy Spirit Being Withdrawn?

[Twilight II]

you know, you've been hurling insults at me for a while now, and I fear I have started to respond in kind. I don't think your bad behaviour gives me any excuse, you don't have the Holy Spirit after all, and I do.

I am not hurling insults.

I am trying to wake you up to the blindness you are engaged in.

And the Holy Spirit is given on one condition and one condition alone.

Acceptance of the merits of Jesus Christ on my behalf, by myself.

It is not given because someone makes "noises".

[BibleOnly]

It says "Languages".

Read it as such and all of this nonsense will soon clear up.

There is no reason whatsover to insert "tongues/vain babblings" into the word that simple means "languages".

And that is the problem.

Every time you see the word "tongues" you are interpreting that word as "tongues/vain babblings".

You clearly do not understand the word and are inserting meaning there that is not in the Greek.

With that in mind, how can you expect to understand what Paul is saying?

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in a language speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I am perfectly OK with that. It's obviously not true for all languages, but Paul is defining the languages given by the Holy Spirit.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

you know, you've been hurling insults at me for a while now, and I fear I have started to respond in kind. I don't think your bad behaviour gives me any excuse, you don't have the Holy Spirit after all, and I do.

I am not hurling insults.

I am trying to wake you up to the blindness you are engaged in.

And the Holy Spirit is given on one condition and one condition alone.

Acceptance of the merits of Jesus Christ on my behalf, by myself.

It is not given because someone makes "noises".

You're right. I can still 'make noises' if I want to ( and this is not tongues ). I didn't get the Holy Spirit because I spoke in tongues. I spoke in tongues because I had the Holy Spirit. Because I 'accepted the merits of Jesus Christ', although I did do more than that, I also repented and was baptised. You're cutting away at the Bible again....

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

It says "Languages".

Read it as such and all of this nonsense will soon clear up.

There is no reason whatsover to insert "tongues/vain babblings" into the word that simple means "languages".

And that is the problem.

Every time you see the word "tongues" you are interpreting that word as "tongues/vain babblings".

You clearly do not understand the word and are inserting meaning there that is not in the Greek.

With that in mind, how can you expect to understand what Paul is saying?

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in a language speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I am perfectly OK with that. It's obviously not true for all languages, but Paul is defining the languages given by the Holy Spirit.

Remember the context.

This is talking about a language that someone else does not speak, so cannot comprehend. It also includes "internal prayer" of the heart and mind.

That is the context.

Let me paraphrase:

If nobody else understands you, because they do not understand your language, then only God understands. Indeed you are then only praying in your spirit (internally), where only God can understand. God can understand the thoughts of the mind and the feelings of the heart, and what is going on there is a mystery to others except God.

-------------

You claim however that unless someone has the gift of "tongues" they are not a Christian.

Why then did Paul say that not everyone has the same gifts?

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1Cr 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?

1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

You seem to be disagreeing with Paul, who said the gift of languages was only for some people...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I am not hurling insults.

I am trying to wake you up to the blindness you are engaged in.

And the Holy Spirit is given on one condition and one condition alone.

Acceptance of the merits of Jesus Christ on my behalf, by myself.

It is not given because someone makes "noises".

You're right. I can still 'make noises' if I want to ( and this is not tongues ). I didn't get the Holy Spirit because I spoke in tongues. I spoke in tongues because I had the Holy Spirit. Because I 'accepted the merits of Jesus Christ', although I did do more than that, I also repented and was baptised. You're cutting away at the Bible again....

The work of the Holy Spirit is two fold.

1) To convert the believer to receive the gift of new life, the internal presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

2) To write Gods Law on our hearts and change our characters into conformity with Christ.

It does not contain some element of spiritual elitism based around a manifestation that anyone can display and in fact is displayed by many pagan cultures...

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in a language speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I am perfectly OK with that. It's obviously not true for all languages, but Paul is defining the languages given by the Holy Spirit.

Remember the context.

This is talking about a language that someone else does not speak, so cannot comprehend. It also includes "internal prayer" of the heart and mind.

That is the context.

Let me paraphrase:

If nobody else understands you, because they do not understand your language, then only God understands. Indeed you are then only praying in your spirit (internally), where only God can understand. God can understand the thoughts of the mind and the feelings of the heart, and what is going on there is a mystery to others except God.

[BibleOnly]

The work of the Holy Spirit is two fold.

1) To convert the believer to receive the gift of new life, the internal presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

2) To write Gods Law on our hearts and change our characters into conformity with Christ.

It does not contain some element of spiritual elitism based around a manifestation that anyone can display and in fact is displayed by many pagan cultures...

Jesus said the Spirit does more than that, but, whatever. I note the absence of scripture in your reply. Paul said that the Gospel is confusing to people seeking men's wisdom, I guess you are of that number.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I am not hurling insults.

I am trying to wake you up to the blindness you are engaged in.

And the Holy Spirit is given on one condition and one condition alone.

Acceptance of the merits of Jesus Christ on my behalf, by myself.

It is not given because someone makes "noises".

You're right. I can still 'make noises' if I want to ( and this is not tongues ). I didn't get the Holy Spirit because I spoke in tongues. I spoke in tongues because I had the Holy Spirit. Because I 'accepted the merits of Jesus Christ', although I did do more than that, I also repented and was baptised. You're cutting away at the Bible again....

The work of the Holy Spirit is two fold.

1) To convert the believer to receive the gift of new life, the internal presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

2) To write Gods Law on our hearts and change our characters into conformity with Christ.

It does not contain some element of spiritual elitism based around a manifestation that anyone can display and in fact is displayed by many pagan cultures...

[BibleOnly]

Was there meant to be a reply here ? Can I be honest with you ? Who will find it harder to accept redemption than he who believes he is redeemed ? For you to accept the Gospel, you need to discard your own ideas, and ask God for something you believe you have, and hold dear. Doesn't seem likely, not if you're not able to read the Bible without filtering it through your own ideas. I'm sure you think I'm lost in sensuality and deliberately working on the Sabbath to spite God. Fine. The question is, what can be gained by my banging my head against a Bible verse that you refuse to see the way that I see it ? It seems to me that all of this is becoming less and less fruitful, and certainly not edifying. I came here to learn about the SDA. If you don't want what God gave me, then that's between you and Him and I see no point in arguing about it ad infinitum. I'm not trying to impress anyone or show how smart I am, so what do I have to gain ?

[Twilight II]

Jesus said the Spirit does more than that, but, whatever. I note the absence of scripture in your reply. Paul said that the Gospel is confusing to people seeking men's wisdom, I guess you are of that number.

Just because someone makes strange noises in church, does not mean they are "enlightened" whilst everyone else is "ignorant".

As it is clear that you believe such, I think we should stop our conversation here.

There is nothing more blinding than false spiritual pride.

I will leave you with your spiritual elitism that you feel is yours because you make strange noises in church and I will continue with my walk with the Lord.

[BibleOnly]

Well, I think those two responses speak for themselves, in terms of who is trying to show the fruits of the Spirit. Thank you.

[Windsor]

This is the true gift of tongues that the Holy Spirit gives.

Acts 2

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

[BibleOnly]

Windsor, you can see what I've posted to other people. How does the details given in one specific instance, trump the general statements the Bible makes about the nature of the gift of tongues in the church ?

[ClubV12]

Like a few other posters on this forum, I pretty much just blow right through whatever BO has posted now. Nothing new to see, same old tired arguments that go nowhere, no evidence to see, no interpretation worthy of consideration. No counsel heeded or even considered. Nothing to see here folks, move along.... :)

[Twilight II]

^^Agreed.

BO is here to "convert" everyone to "tongues speaking" Christianity.

You cannot be a Christian without it he believes.

[BibleOnly]

I agree. You would need to change my entire education to stop me from comprehending the verses I have quoted differently. The rules of English simply don't allow for it. I am sad that no-one here has even bothered to explain Acts 8, but, I thank you for showing me that the SDA comes to it's views by not even trying, and just ignoring this part of the Bible. I do appreciate your time, while I am incredulous at your interpretation of 1 Cor 14, I wanted to know and now I do.

Twilight, only a fool would think that one could 'convert' people by joining a forum where anyone who listened even a little, would have lots of peer pressure not to show it, and where the Bible is reduced to mere words. I came here to understand your views, and I admit I've come a lot closer to doing that in a week, than I did by letting various SDA people email me for over a year. So, I do thank you for that, although your reward is a greater condemnation when Jesus asks why you read the bible and did not obey it, that was not my goal, merely a side effect of my standing on the Word of God.

[John317]

For you to accept the Gospel, you need to discard your own ideas, and ask God for something you believe you have, and hold dear. Doesn't seem likely, not if you're not able to read the Bible without filtering it through your own ideas.

Are you saying these words don't apply to you as much as they do to anyone else?

Are you willing to discard your own ideas?

Are you reading the Bible without filtering it through your own ideas?

[John317]

...I am sad that no-one here has even bothered to explain Acts 8, but, I thank you for showing me that the SDA comes to it's views by not even trying, and just ignoring this part of the Bible.

What is it in Acts 8 that you want people to explain?

[BibleOnly]

"Are you saying these words don't apply to you as much as they do to anyone else?"

Of course not

"Are you willing to discard your own ideas?

Are you reading the Bible without filtering it through your own ideas?"

I was careful to say, 1 Cor 12-14 is read by people like you to be about earthly languages, that have ended. People who think some can speak in tongues, read it to prove that. So, it's clear that no-one reads these verses without filtering them through what they believe, and the need to read with care and to be willing to let the Word of God correct us, applies to me as well as anyone else.

No-one even responded to that, so I assumed no-one cared about honesty, or being thoughtful.

Of course, if the actual Bible contradicts me, I am there for that. I've spoken to enough SDAs to be beyond considering if I am supposed to keep the Sabbath, but I came to that totally willing to have the bible prove that to me. The failure of many SDA people to do that, culminating in the week I have been here, does not mean I was not willing to listen, only that the explanation that the NT does not support the SDA directly because God hid the Gospel, is of no interest to me, nor do I find it credible.

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Change the word 'tongues' to languages and it might confuse my 8 year old, but I am sure she'd still interpret it, as an English sentence, to be talking about a language used only to speak to God.

No-one here has even bothered to explain how Acts 8 fits the SDA view.

I could go on, but it's all the same. I've asked, and people generally ignore the scripture 9 times out of 10, and always post their own ideas. That you're not convincing, does not mean I am not paying attention.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

...I am sad that no-one here has even bothered to explain Acts 8, but, I thank you for showing me that the SDA comes to it's views by not even trying, and just ignoring this part of the Bible.

What is it in Acts 8 that you want people to explain?

\

Not sure how you missed all the times I asked.

In Acts 8, baptised believers who have been healed and seen miracles are told they do not have the Spirit. How did they know ?

They then recieved the Spirit, and Simon, seeing this, offered money to be able to give the Spirit. What did he see ?

The fact that the Bible assumes we know the answers to these questions says much about how run of the mill these occurences were, and that this was not some special instance.

[Q.E.D.]

My dear BibleOnly,

My explanation of Acts 8 is EXACTLY like yours now. For you have OPENED MY EYES, and I CAN SEE CLEARLY NOW, my dear friend BibleOnly.

We all know now THAT EVERY CHRISTIAN on PLANET EARTH has the EXACT SAME view as you EXCEPT the Seventh-day Adventist. We know this is true for you have told us that your view is the TRUTH.

We all will soon babble to the Angels of God in our secret prayer language that even we have no idea what we are saying and finally become deciples of the Oracle of Delphi.

So now the entire Seventh-day Adventist church will vanish in a small puff of smoke and soon be forgotten. And you my dear friend will have the GLORY of GOD shining "round about you" just like Christ at the Transfiguration.

We ALL will PRAISE you for ALL ETERNITY in the New Jerusalem.

Now does that make you feel better since you "FOUND what your were EXPECTING?

Beware of the Coming National Sunday Law . . .666

Nothing so blind as those that will not see. . . poof!

Q.E.D.

[doug yowell]

I don't think the Holy Spirit is being withdrawn as much as people are booting it out of their lives. God won't stay where He's not wanted.

After all is said and done, this is the bottom line. The history of Israel in the Promised Land (the OT)is the sad story of how this works.The United States is a contemporary example.Christianity itself has it's own past to learn from.When a people turn away from the instructions of God they begin a journey that will inevitably lead them to reject His involvement(help)in every aspect of life "...because, although they knew God, they did not glotify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened...therefore, God gave them up..."

[BibleOnly]

Q.E.D. I am still amused that you think the fruits of the spirit are arrogance and sarcasm. However

"Beware of the Coming National Sunday Law . . .666"

This is a view I'd like to explore more. I actually know SDA people who confess to me they can see how ridiculous this belief is, but they feel they have to believe it because their parents do.

[Twilight II]

Q.E.D. I am still amused that you think the fruits of the spirit are arrogance and sarcasm. However

"Beware of the Coming National Sunday Law . . .666"

This is a view I'd like to explore more. I actually know SDA people who confess to me they can see how ridiculous this belief is, but they feel they have to believe it because their parents do.

God promised to write His Law on our hearts.

Which changes our characters.

The Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments that has to be written on our hearts.

And God will be testing whether we have His Law written on our hearts.

He will be testing our characters.

And when He looks at my heart, I hope He sees:

"Made in Eden"...

[BibleOnly]

Twilight, I am not going to discuss this with you, it is pointless. You don't accept that Acts 8 means anything, and you think that God writing His law in our hearts happens invisibly. I disagree. No point arguing.