BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 1 Cor 14 does not state that. You are misreading it. Please supply the verse you think indicates this? Again ? Why ? I've said it over and over. Paul said that only God understands tongues. If you don't trust the Bible the first, second or tenth time, why would you now ?
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II So you are here to convert us heathen SDA's that don't roll around on the floor and dribble at church whilst making strange noises? :-) You need to trust the Bible instead of '60 minutes'. I've stated over and over that I do not roll around on the floor or dribble in church. I've stated over and over that 1 Cor 12-14 was written to make sure the church is orderly. Why does what you saw on TV change what the Bible says ? Are you saying that people don't get "slain in the spirit" at pentecostal churches? Or other such activities. And what is orderly about speaking nonsensical noises that no one else can understand? And how many languages of "tongues" is there? As many as there are "believers" who practice it perhaps? I can do "tongues" right now, I can make funny noises and call it "spiritual mystical language that only God knows". And that glorifies God how exactly?
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II 1 Cor 14 does not state that. You are misreading it. Please supply the verse you think indicates this? Again ? Why ? I've said it over and over. Paul said that only God understands tongues. If you don't trust the Bible the first, second or tenth time, why would you now ? No, it does not say that. You only think it says that. Post the verse where you think that is being said.
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 "Are you saying that people don't get "slain in the spirit" at pentecostal churches?" Of course not. Are you denying that some people in the SDA think that most of the New Testament is not true ? The fact that some people do the wrong thing, does not mean that God is wrong. It doesn't mean that *I* do it. "And what is orderly about speaking nonsensical noises that no one else can understand?" According to 1 Cor 14 - when only 2-3 people do it, one at a time, with interpretation in between. "And how many languages of "tongues" is there? As many as there are "believers" who practice it perhaps?" These are natural questions, from a natural mind. "I can do "tongues" right now, I can make funny noises and call it "spiritual mystical language that only God knows". And that glorifies God how exactly?" As previously explained, I can make funny noises too, but I know that's different to speaking in tongues. Why are you arguing based on human logic and your own ideas, instead of addressing what the Bible says ?
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 No, it does not say that. You only think it says that. Post the verse where you think that is being said. I am beginning to think you're being deliberately obtuse. You know what verses I will quote again. 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret. 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. No suggestion anywhere that Paul's use of tongues differs from the definition he gave.
Dr. Rich Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Matthew 6:6 "But when you pray, go to your closet and shut the door. Pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you."
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II No, it does not say that. You only think it says that. Post the verse where you think that is being said. I am beginning to think you're being deliberately obtuse. You know what verses I will quote again. 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret. 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. No suggestion anywhere that Paul's use of tongues differs from the definition he gave. Paul here is talking about comprehension in prayer and in communication again. Verse 15 is the conclusion of the thought. You are going to have very little success trying to convert people here to vain babblings BO.
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly I am beginning to think you're being deliberately obtuse. You know what verses I will quote again. 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret. 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. No suggestion anywhere that Paul's use of tongues differs from the definition he gave. Paul here is talking about comprehension in prayer and in communication again. Verse 15 is the conclusion of the thought. You are going to have very little success trying to convert people here to vain babblings BO. Yes, the conclusion is not that Paul does not speak in tongues, but, 1Cr 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: So, Paul says he does both, not that he does both at once. Your reading makes no sense to anyone not desperate to prove from 1 Cor 14 that it means the opposite of what it says. The Bible says that His sheep hear His voice, it's not my job to convert anyone. If you're blind to what it says in plain english, that only proves that the things of God are spiritually discerned.
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 God does not expect us to park "common sense" in order to receive something spiritual. It should be logical at the same time. Try this: "I thank God I speak languages more than you all." That is what text is saying. "tongues" as in "vain babbling" is not in the Bible. "tongues" means languages, plain and simple. Once that is firmly understood, all these attempts to justify something a pagan witch doctor also does, as some required Christian spiritual activity, disappear very fast. Tongues = Languages. Tongues does not mean = unintelligeable noise that makes you approved of God.
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 God does not expect us to park "common sense" in order to receive something spiritual. It should be logical at the same time. Try this: "I thank God I speak languages more than you all." That is what text is saying. "tongues" as in "vain babbling" is not in the Bible. "tongues" means languages, plain and simple. Once that is firmly understood, all these attempts to justify something a pagan witch doctor also does, as some required Christian spiritual activity, disappear very fast. Tongues = Languages. Tongues does not mean = unintelligeable noise that makes you approved of God. So, by substituting a word, you claim that Paul was lying when he said that people who speak in tongues, speak only to God ? You're claiming that Paul knew lots of human languages, I assume by the inspiration of God, used for preaching ? Why is there no record of this happening the bible, nor any guidance on how to use this gift ? 1 Cor 14 makes no sense if it's tongues used to speak to people present despite not knowing a word of any language that anyone present knew. I also think you grossly underestimate the odds of people being naturally bi lingual in the world they lived in. Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. What does this mean ?
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 I am not substituting a "word". The original greek word means "languages". Tongues is an old English word that means "languages". That comes from the KJV. Unintelligible noises as "tongues" is not in the greek. If you could just understand the word "tongues" means "languages" then your error would be plain to yourself. It has been added into the Bible by those that have been fooled into thinking that God rewards a believer by making them behave like a madman... ...in public.
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Zeph 3:9. Keep reading... Quote: Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid. It means the words of their mouths will be pure, without sin.
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 I know what the greek word means. You're playing word games and avoiding the scripture. Yes, the gift is speaking in languages that only God understands. Paul says that, plainly. He does not mention 'false tongues' or say his tongues are any different from those used in Corinth. There is no record of tongues being used to preach anywhere in the NT. Acts 8 records a group of baptised believers who did not have the Spirit. You are yet to explain that to me, and I suggest you will fail to do that again, instead telling me more of your extra biblical theories.
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Zeph 3:9. Keep reading... Quote: Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid. It means the words of their mouths will be pure, without sin. So the word 'language' means language in the NT but not in the old ?
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 It has been added into the Bible by those that have been fooled into thinking that God rewards a believer by making them behave like a madman... ...in public. Just to add, the people who translated the KJV, did not speak in tongues. IF they did, they might have translated John 3:8 correctly. But, it doesn't matter what terminology you use. Call it 'speaking in languages' if you want. The Bible still says only God understands. And, I've already covered the 'behaving like a madman' drivel, only I use the Bible to explain it, you just use your own mind.
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 I know what the greek word means. You're playing word games and avoiding the scripture. Yes, the gift is speaking in languages that only God understands. Paul says that, plainly. He does not mention 'false tongues' or say his tongues are any different from those used in Corinth. There is no record of tongues being used to preach anywhere in the NT. Acts 8 records a group of baptised believers who did not have the Spirit. You are yet to explain that to me, and I suggest you will fail to do that again, instead telling me more of your extra biblical theories. Why would Paul mention "false tongues"? When he originally spoke he said: "languages". And "languages" in the Greek, means an intelligible language. You are not speaking a language when you speak in tongues. You are making emotional noises. You are trying to place what you practice into the Bible by picking and choosing verses out of context. ------------------- Does a baby speak in a "language" when they are 1 years old? No. They make noises. It is not until they can articulate and control those noises into words that it becomes a language. Do you really think God wants you to behave like an idiot in public? Making baby noises or something very similar? And why do you think you are more "spiritual" because you make noises like that? Anyone can make noises and claim it is a special language that only God knows. Nothing special needed for that, just the ability to make some noise.
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II It has been added into the Bible by those that have been fooled into thinking that God rewards a believer by making them behave like a madman... ...in public. Just to add, the people who translated the KJV, did not speak in tongues. IF they did, they might have translated John 3:8 correctly. But, it doesn't matter what terminology you use. Call it 'speaking in languages' if you want. The Bible still says only God understands. And, I've already covered the 'behaving like a madman' drivel, only I use the Bible to explain it, you just use your own mind. The mystery of how the Holy Spirit works in John 3:8 is not a validation of tongues by any stretch of the imagination. The Bible does not say that only God understands tongues so therefore it is okay... You are pulling a text out of its meaning and ignoring the fact that "languages" are intelligible.
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Zeph 3:9. Keep reading... Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid. It means the words of their mouths will be pure, without sin. So the word 'language' means language in the NT but not in the old ? Huh? Read the verse then the explanation in verse 13. The explanation is given in the text. Of course you can ignore that if you want to try to wrest verse 9 to prove tongues is legitimate...
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Try this simple experiment. Read through 1 cor 12-14 and forget about your "tongues" for a moment. But rather just insert "languages" where it says tongues. And I mean "intelligible" languages that other people speak. Then notice how much sense it will start to make...
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly I know what the greek word means. You're playing word games and avoiding the scripture. Yes, the gift is speaking in languages that only God understands. Paul says that, plainly. He does not mention 'false tongues' or say his tongues are any different from those used in Corinth. There is no record of tongues being used to preach anywhere in the NT. Acts 8 records a group of baptised believers who did not have the Spirit. You are yet to explain that to me, and I suggest you will fail to do that again, instead telling me more of your extra biblical theories. Why would Paul mention "false tongues"? When he originally spoke he said: "languages". And "languages" in the Greek, means an intelligible language. You are not speaking a language when you speak in tongues. You are making emotional noises. You are trying to place what you practice into the Bible by picking and choosing verses out of context. ------------------- Does a baby speak in a "language" when they are 1 years old? No. They make noises. It is not until they can articulate and control those noises into words that it becomes a language. Do you really think God wants you to behave like an idiot in public? Making baby noises or something very similar? And why do you think you are more "spiritual" because you make noises like that? Anyone can make noises and claim it is a special language that only God knows. Nothing special needed for that, just the ability to make some noise. I've scanned your reply three times for references to the Bible, and found none. Just more of your own ideas. In 1 Cor 14:2, the phrase 'in an unknown tongue' is one greek word: glōssa 1 Cor 14:18, talking about the tongues that Paul speaks in, is the same Greek word. How do you explain that ?
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Try this simple experiment. Read through 1 cor 12-14 and forget about your "tongues" for a moment. But rather just insert "languages" where it says tongues. And I mean "intelligible" languages that other people speak. Then notice how much sense it will start to make... It then contradicts itself, simply because Paul uses the same Greek word for the tongues that only God understands, to the tongues that they were using, the tongues Paul used, and the tongues Paul tells them to use in the church. See how all you have are word games ? They let you down, the Greek does not support you in any way. Perhaps if you could answer my questions from the bible instead of giving me your own thoughts, over and over again.
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Notice the words in brackets: 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. Brackets indicate that those words were not in the original Greek, and were added by the translators in an attempt to convey the meaning from the Greek into the English. You are resting a lot on a word that is not even in the Greek don't you think? -------------- If you now look at verse 6, you will see the exact same Greek word without the "unknown" added. -------------- Verse 18 is very easy to explain. Paul is saying He speaks in Languages more than them all. Which makes sense, as he was one of the greatest Christian workers of all time, speaking to people in many different cultures and languages. He was also a highly educated man under Gamaliel, one of the most famous Jewish teachers of the era, indicating Pauls great intellect... So he would have spoken, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and Roman as a matter of course. And that would have been before he was a Christian. That is without even considering what languages the Holy Spirit gave him to communicate with others with. So the verse is very easy to explain, when you do not try to insert "funny noises" into what is simply the word for "languages"...
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 you know, you've been hurling insults at me for a while now, and I fear I have started to respond in kind. I don't think your bad behaviour gives me any excuse, you don't have the Holy Spirit after all, and I do. Yet, it's odd to me that someone who rejects the gifts of God would not work harder to exhibit the fruits. That is what I intend to do, however. So, please respond with a respectful explanation of why the same Greek word is used through 1 Cor 14, and how you feel that this doesn't blow your whole assumption of the meaning of the word 'languages' out of the water. If you respond without referring to the Bible, and with a personal attack, I will ignore it. But, if you choose to do that, I only wish you well, and I regret that you are blinded to what the Bible plainly states. This is no victory for me, all I've done is ensure that on the judgement day you can't say you were never told. I never wished to do you any harm, but I am servant of God and must do His will, your response is between you and Him.
BibleOnly Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Notice the words in brackets: 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. Brackets indicate that those words were not in the original Greek, and were added by the translators in an attempt to convey the meaning from the Greek into the English. You are resting a lot on a word that is not even in the Greek don't you think? -------------- If you now look at verse 6, you will see the exact same Greek word without the "unknown" added. --------------
Twilight II Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Try this simple experiment. Read through 1 cor 12-14 and forget about your "tongues" for a moment. But rather just insert "languages" where it says tongues. And I mean "intelligible" languages that other people speak. Then notice how much sense it will start to make... It then contradicts itself, simply because Paul uses the same Greek word for the tongues that only God understands, to the tongues that they were using, the tongues Paul used, and the tongues Paul tells them to use in the church. See how all you have are word games ? They let you down, the Greek does not support you in any way. Perhaps if you could answer my questions from the bible instead of giving me your own thoughts, over and over again. It does not contradict itself. You keep inserting "babblings" from your belief system into the texts. It says "Languages". Read it as such and all of this nonsense will soon clear up. There is no reason whatsover to insert "tongues/vain babblings" into the word that simple means "languages". And that is the problem. Every time you see the word "tongues" you are interpreting that word as "tongues/vain babblings". You clearly do not understand the word and are inserting meaning there that is not in the Greek. With that in mind, how can you expect to understand what Paul is saying?
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