BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly This is obviously not true for three reasons. 1 - there is no record in the Bible of tongues ever being used to preach So what is this? Acts 2:1 etc If its not the 12 preaching? Than what do you think they are doing? Talking to each other? This is what Jesus means when he says speaking in tongues. So when you talk to others that don't speak your language, they understand what your saying to them, not some jibberish that no one understands. It's Peter preaching. In the known language. Everything you quoted was Peter's sermon, not given in tongues, but in the known language. Where does it say that Peter spoke in tongues ? Why would he ? He spoke once. Why not speak in the language everyone there knew, including Peter, assuming that tongues even means what you claim ? Why does Paul state that tongues is understood only by God ? Why does he say that speaking in tongues is for speaking to God and not men ?
BobRyan Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Paul argues that those who speak in a tongue that is not known to someone are considered as barbarian to the one that does not know the tongue spoken. This is the "abuse of tongues" case. Paul says that in the abuse case - tongues is a sign that the one speaking is a "barbarians" - when taken from the POV of a listener that does not know that tongue. Paul then argues in 1Cor 14 that tongues when rightly used are " a sign to UNBELIEVERS" - as we see in Acts 2 when each of them "hears in their OWN language" because various different languages (named in Acts 2) are being spoken. Clearly then - tongues is an example of human language - where a person speaks something other than their native tongue so that they can reach unbeliever who speak that same language. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Paul argues that those who speak in a tongue that is not known to someone are considered as barbarian to the one that does not know the tongue spoken. This is the "abuse of tongues" case. Paul says that in the abuse case - tongues is a sign that the one speaking is a "barbarians" - when taken from the POV of a listener that does not know that tongue. Paul then argues in 1Cor 14 that tongues when rightly used are " a sign to UNBELIEVERS" - as we see in Acts 2 when each of them "hears in their OWN language" because various different languages (named in Acts 2) are being spoken. Clearly then - tongues is an example of human language - where a person speaks something other than their native tongue so that they can reach unbeliever who speak that same language. in Christ, Bob OK, assuming you're correct, does the SDA have 2-3 people speak in a human language they don't understand in each meeting, with someone else interpreting ? Of course not. You're just trying to make this fit the absence of tongues in your church. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers. Why is that ? Because believers speak in tongues. That is why tongues should occur in the church at all. This does not change that Paul says that when someone speaks in tongues, no man understands. It does not change that Paul's definition of tongues as how we 'pray in the Spirit' is the only definition the Bible gives.
M. T. Cross Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Jesus said: I am sorry, but I will not waste time argue with someone who cannot see the obvious just because they want "tongues" to be "the" test. Whoa! Wow! And thus the battle of arrogance trumps the desire for truth. Thank God I am not a Christian.
ClubV12 Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Oh I very much agree with Twilight, not just in this case but in many different cases on this forum. There is simply no point in engaging someone when it becomes clear they have already made up their mind. Now sometimes I engage such a person anyway to edify the other readers of the thread. But you have to choose your battles carefully, you can't "engage" every person that comes along and wants to "argue". I don't like to "argue", I like to have a discussion. I haven't had much to say on THIS thread because I choose not to engage BibleOnly. Others are already doing an adequate job of that and secondarily I get the distinct impression it's a waste of time. Perhaps other readers of this thread can learn something, but from your response, Emptycross, it doesn't look like you have learned any "good" thing. ...sometimes Ellen White didn't respond to questions she was asked. Other times she told people point blank she had nothing to say on the matter. There is a time to just keep quiet. There are several folks on THIS forum I won't bother to answer or dialog with at all anymore. Egotistical? Not at all, common sense, I don't fall for the bait, which is ALL they offer! Desire for truth or just another "bush whack" designed to irrate someone? Sometimes it's a tough call, sometimes it's rather obvious.
Members phkrause Posted November 30, 2011 Members Posted November 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Jesus said: I am sorry, but I will not waste time argue with someone who cannot see the obvious just because they want "tongues" to be "the" test. Whoa! Wow! And thus the battle of arrogance trumps the desire for truth. Thank God I am not a Christian. EC I can understand his frustration, but I agree there's no reason to get carried away. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Oh I very much agree with Twilight, not just in this case but in many different cases on this forum. There is simply no point in engaging someone when it becomes clear they have already made up their mind. Now sometimes I engage such a person anyway to edify the other readers of the thread. But you have to choose your battles carefully, you can't "engage" every person that comes along and wants to "argue". I don't like to "argue", I like to have a discussion. I haven't had much to say on THIS thread because I choose not to engage BibleOnly. Others are already doing an adequate job of that and secondarily I get the distinct impression it's a waste of time. Perhaps other readers of this thread can learn something, but from your response, Emptycross, it doesn't look like you have learned any "good" thing. ...sometimes Ellen White didn't respond to questions she was asked. Other times she told people point blank she had nothing to say on the matter. There is a time to just keep quiet. There are several folks on THIS forum I won't bother to answer or dialog with at all anymore. Egotistical? Not at all, common sense, I don't fall for the bait, which is ALL they offer! Desire for truth or just another "bush whack" designed to irrate someone? Sometimes it's a tough call, sometimes it's rather obvious. The Bible talks about comparing ourselves with ourselves. Does this not apply to Ellen White ? Just curious I am sorry that you think people who don't answer my questions are doing an 'adequate' job. But, it's entirely up to you if you look at scripture first, or not. No-one has explained to me the answer to my core questions. 1 - why does Acts 8 indicate that baptised believers can be proven to not have the Spirit ? 2 - why was tongues the sign of the Spirit through Acts ?
ClubV12 Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Here's the bottom line: The gift of tongues was a real language given to some to speak to others who knew only that language. The gift of tongues YOU are talking about comes to you from the devil, it's confusion, it's gibberish, it's Satanic in origin. And you know it not, you are totally in a delusion, completely fooled on this point, it borders on spiritual insanity. I can't help you, there is no point in discussing it with you. You have been given the truth on the matter and rejected it. Maybe somebody else can help you, I doubt it, I think your so locked in to this delusion you may never recover. It's a very serious thing you've gotten yourself into. My advice would be to RUN from whatever group you are involved with and seek as for hidden treasure the truth. You WILL find that truth HERE, if you will open your heart, do not trust your "feelings", come, let us reason together. God is not the author of confusion, apply that principle, think about what that means. And you might, with Gods help, see the error of your way, this rejection of truth you cling to. God bless,,,,
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Here's the bottom line: The gift of tongues was a real language given to some to speak to others who knew only that language. The gift of tongues YOU are talking about comes to you from the devil, it's confusion, it's gibberish, it's Satanic in origin. And you know it not, you are totally in a delusion, completely fooled on this point, it borders on spiritual insanity.
ClubV12 Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Fellow believers, as I see it there is only one way to answer questions such as these, with the straight truth. Delivered as kindly as possible, but it must be straight and true. BibleOnly you ask: "When I asked to save my soul, and I spoke in tongues, does that mean that the devil answered when I called on God?" Yes, that is exactly what it means, the devil answered your prayer, not God. The evil doer is quite capable and an expert at making you feel good, feel inspired, feel spiritual. He is the father of lies and has been practicing his dark art for thousands of years. The very nature of delusion means you THINK you are on the right track. How will you know? Certainly NOT by "what feels good". The bible is plain enough, there are none who will have an excuse for their delusion. You have been given the truth on the matter of tongues and continue to "argue" the point. What more can be said? You have so confused the spirit of the devil with the Holy Spirit it may be impossible for you to discern truth. Even truth as simple as tongues. You CANNOT TRUST YOUR FEELINGS on spiritual matters, the devil will fool you everytime. You MUST apply logic, reason and common sense to the bible FIRST and FOREMOST, then the Holy Spirit will begin to awaken your understanding. THAT is why God says, "Come let us REASON together". He says what He means and means what He says. Should you return to your religion? No, you need to return to God and use the common sense He gave you in seeking Him.
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Fellow believers, as I see it there is only one way to answer questions such as these, with the straight truth. Delivered as kindly as possible, but it must be straight and true. BibleOnly you ask: "When I asked to save my soul, and I spoke in tongues, does that mean that the devil answered when I called on God?" Yes, that is exactly what it means, the devil answered your prayer, not God. The evil doer is quite capable and an expert at making you feel good, feel inspired, feel spiritual. He is the father of lies and has been practicing his dark art for thousands of years. The very nature of delusion means you THINK you are on the right track. How will you know? Certainly NOT by "what feels good". The bible is plain enough, there are none who will have an excuse for their delusion. You have been given the truth on the matter of tongues and continue to "argue" the point. What more can be said?
Lysimachus Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Here is an excellent radio show on the gift of tongues: Modern Deceptions in the Tongues Movements (M3U streaming) ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Here is an excellent radio show on the gift of tongues: Modern Deceptions in the Tongues Movements (M3U streaming) Do you have a transcript ? I'll read it, if we agree it's someone's thoughts and it needs to line up with the Bible, and if you're presenting it on the basis that I am being invited to comment on it. I don't actually have sound hooked up on this PC, nor am I keen on sitting and listening to someone talk. Reading is a better medium to take something in and think about it. Of course, none of this can change that no-one is explaining why Acts 8 has unsaved baptised believers, why tongues was the sign through Acts, or why 1 Cor 12-14 instructs the church to use tongues in a meeting, and says this will not end until Jesus returns. Unless this radio show explains it, but then, the answer is not being presented so people reading this forum can see it.
Lysimachus Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus Here is an excellent radio show on the gift of tongues: Modern Deceptions in the Tongues Movements (M3U streaming) Do you have a transcript ? I'll read it, if we agree it's someone's thoughts and it needs to line up with the Bible, and if you're presenting it on the basis that I am being invited to comment on it. I don't actually have sound hooked up on this PC, nor am I keen on sitting and listening to someone talk. Reading is a better medium to take something in and think about it. Of course, none of this can change that no-one is explaining why Acts 8 has unsaved baptised believers, why tongues was the sign through Acts, or why 1 Cor 12-14 instructs the church to use tongues in a meeting, and says this will not end until Jesus returns. Unless this radio show explains it, but then, the answer is not being presented so people reading this forum can see it. You are assuming that I provided that link (and audio links before for that matter) for you to comment on. No, I'm just providing it for good measure. For your learning. No transcripts area available. Sorry. But seeing you prefer reading, and do not have sound, here is an excellent article on the subject: Understanding Tongues (PDF) I want to encourage you to get your PC fixed and get sound working on it. Much of the knowledge I have attained is through watching YouTube videos and listening to various audio shows. Only reading articles and books carries many flaws. It lacks the "tone" of voice which one is trying to emphasize. Many times there are certain key points in what is written that can only be emphasized via voice--to drill the point home. Reading is easier to manipulate and digest wrong in many instances. You really have to hear those radio shows sometimes. They really make their points crystal clear, and speak with a tone of authority that needs to be heard, LOUD and CLEAR. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 It's my experience that YouTube is the home of crackpots, especially when used for 'education'. Anything from the Bilderberg group to extreme vegans are catered for. This is my fear, you want to throw opinions at me, but do not allow me to discuss them. If I disagree, then I am just recalcitrant and not to be engaged ? I've been given a DVD on tongues by an SDA member. It was quite ignorant, and I mean that kindly. The people presenting plainly had no idea and worked hard to shoehorn their misconceptions in to scripture. I will read with an open mind, but I think if it's so clear, that you should be able to explain it without requiring an external link.
ClubV12 Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Tongues WAS explained, clearly and to the point. Your failure to grasp it is your choicena sadly so. Personally, I don't think more videos, more books, You Tube or DVD's will make any difference. My friend, sincerely, here is the problem: You lack spiritual discernment because you are under the influence of a lieing spirit that says the "tongues" and excitement and the peace you feel are from God. It is not, it is spiritualism, it is from the devil. Until you are ready to seriously consider that possibility there is little point in pursuing anything else. The Sabbath, the future, the 2nd coming, all pale in comparison to the spirit influencing you on your false interpretation of tongues.
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 I am not going to comment on this in depth as you've said you will not answer. However, it's clear this article is well written for it's intended audience, people who don't speak in tongues and want to be told that it's not real, and don't know the scriptures on the topic well enough to see the flaws in his statements. I will say, I can't help that someone says that tongues is to hide what we pray from the Devil, but the Bible does not say that. Instead it says we do it because WE don't know what to pray for. At the core, the author ignores a lot of scripture but none more than this: 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. and even more so: 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. Tongues are understood only by God. Paul says this and on this basis, this entire article is based on a false premise.
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 I agree. No videos that ignore the scriptures will convince me. They would have to explain the verses that contradict what they are saying, to do that. " You lack spiritual discernment because you are under the influence of a lieing spirit that says the "tongues" and excitement and the peace you feel are from God. It is not, it is spiritualism, it is from the devil. " So, let me get this right. God does not give peace, the Devil does ? When I ask God to save me, the Devil answers, with peace. Is that your position ? "The Sabbath, the future, the 2nd coming, all pale in comparison to the spirit influencing you on your false interpretation of tongues." *grin* I hate to be rude, although I accept you have a head start. So, I won't comment on this except to reiterate that the whole Bible is true, and that there's a number of scriptures that need explaining which no-one is willing to address. That is why I am unconvinced.
ClubV12 Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 The devil has a counterfit for everything the Lord does. The Lord brings peace to the heart, to the soul. The evil doer can certainly appear to work miracles. He can make a man sick and then remove the illness in fashion to where it APPEARS he has worked a miracle. It's only a counterfit miracle. In the case of tongues, a very powerful and dangerous counterfit, compelling, captivating, feels good, brings peace, a truly insidious counterfit difficult to escape from.
ClubV12 Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Did you ever read that story about Moses and the snakes when he went before Pharoh? Consider the Lords servant, Job. Do you think that animal in the tree of good and evil in the garden was a myth? The evil doer spoke through that animal to lie to Eve.
Twilight II Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Here's the bottom line: The gift of tongues was a real language given to some to speak to others who knew only that language. The gift of tongues YOU are talking about comes to you from the devil, it's confusion, it's gibberish, it's Satanic in origin. And you know it not, you are totally in a delusion, completely fooled on this point, it borders on spiritual insanity. I can't help you, there is no point in discussing it with you. You have been given the truth on the matter and rejected it. Maybe somebody else can help you, I doubt it, I think your so locked in to this delusion you may never recover. It's a very serious thing you've gotten yourself into. My advice would be to RUN from whatever group you are involved with and seek as for hidden treasure the truth. You WILL find that truth HERE, if you will open your heart, do not trust your "feelings", come, let us reason together. God is not the author of confusion, apply that principle, think about what that means. And you might, with Gods help, see the error of your way, this rejection of truth you cling to. God bless,,,, Amen
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Did you ever read that story about Moses and the snakes when he went before Pharoh? Consider the Lords servant, Job. Do you think that animal in the tree of good and evil in the garden was a myth? The evil doer spoke through that animal to lie to Eve. To paraphrase, 'The Bible doesn't say that at all'. Yes, Satan is the father of lies. He didn't DO anything in the Garden, he got Eve to do it, by making her believe a lie. He did not give her peace or heal her addictions. God allowed the devil to attack Job, but He does not allow Satan to attack His adoptive children, Jesus was clear on that.
Twilight II Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Jesus taught more about the Holy Spirit than anything else throughout the gospels. Not once did He maintain that tongues were a sign. The reason I did not choose to engage with the questioner, is because those that are "high" on tongues, will behave like a drug addict that cannot admit they have a drug problem. If you cannot persuade them they are an addict, nothing will help. I see no signs here that the possibility of deception on the gift of tongues is even being considered. So with that in mind, I chose not to engage in a lengthy debate with someone who is caught up in an emotionaly driven spiritual deception. The moment the poster could not accept that Jesus breathed on the disciples and commanded them to receive the Holy Ghost in the upper room, right there and then, I knew further conversation was highly unlikely to aid the poster. Which is a shame, because there is nothing I like to share more than the secrets of the Kingdom of God as revealed in scripture. Sadly, rolling around on the floor and dribbling, has degraded the value of this type of knowledge, so much so that said dribbling is much more highly esteemed than knowing about the indewlling of the Holy Spirit and its roll in sanctification in many churches.
BibleOnly Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 Here's the bottom line: The gift of tongues was a real language given to some to speak to others who knew only that language. The gift of tongues YOU are talking about comes to you from the devil, it's confusion, it's gibberish, it's Satanic in origin. And you know it not, you are totally in a delusion, completely fooled on this point, it borders on spiritual insanity. I can't help you, there is no point in discussing it with you. You have been given the truth on the matter and rejected it. Maybe somebody else can help you, I doubt it, I think your so locked in to this delusion you may never recover. It's a very serious thing you've gotten yourself into. My advice would be to RUN from whatever group you are involved with and seek as for hidden treasure the truth. You WILL find that truth HERE, if you will open your heart, do not trust your "feelings", come, let us reason together. God is not the author of confusion, apply that principle, think about what that means. And you might, with Gods help, see the error of your way, this rejection of truth you cling to. God bless,,,, Amen You know, I know this is an SDA forum. I expect that most people will agree with this. But, you would post 'amen' as if that will add weight to what was said in the face of the scriptures that prove it's not true ? Can you explain why Paul wrote that a man speaking in tongues does not speak to men, but God, as no man understands him ?
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