Keeping the Sabbath

[BibleOnly]

1.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

So, you are wrong

2. Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So, you are wrong. John 14 is after John 3, and says that the Holy Ghost has not been sent yet

3 - Mat 10:1 ¶ And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

He gave them 2 of the 9, yes. But, the Spirit was not yet given, so the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the spirit did not exist in that form. Indeed, you can't say they had the 1 Cor 12 gifts, but no tongues, that's plainly ridiculous.

4 - This is just plainly not true. They did not have the gifts that come with the infilling of the Spirit, if they did not have the Spirit.

"The pentecostal experience of Acts 2 - is not happening today - but will one day happen again."

Yet Paul said tongues would not cease until Jesus returns....

[cheddar]

and the rest of the Sabbath is constant, not weekly, and more spiritual than natural.

And therein lies the point. God does not rest every Saturday. The Sabbath is not that eternal, unchanging and rigid a principle.

In the book of Revelation - John says that 'I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day'. Rev. 1:10

John was probably one of the last surviving apostles by this time and he was obviously keeping a certain day of the week.

So your conclusions that we can keep any day of the week are baseless and absurd.

[Woody]

Quote:

So your conclusions that we can keep any day of the week are baseless and absurd.

I think it is impossible to determine the motives and spirit of another. Nor do I think it to be our responsible on this forum or in the church.

Personally I've decided that when it comes to Biblical interpretation and application - I will not play God. It's my policy to believe the best in all Christians that I converse with. You will not find a more firm Sabbath keeper than I. But, I believe that the Bible is FAR from clear and that there is room for different interpretations of most all doctrines.

There IS Truth. And I believe it is to the advantage for the Christian to find Truth and apply it here on Earth. But I don't believe it is absolutely required. One can be saved without finding the intellectual Truth as found in scripture. So, all these unkind arguments are worse than not finding Truth. We should be kindly disagreeing with our brethren but not accusing one another instead of supporting and loving them.

Bottom line. Truth is over-rated.

[CoAspen]

[Woody]

Yes CoA. You know even "Habakkuk" thought that HE a prophet had more concern about the LAW and righteousness than God Himself.

Check out Habakkuk 1:1-3

[BibleOnly]

"So your conclusions that we can keep any day of the week are baseless and absurd."

*sigh* thanks for that productive post. Paul wrote that we're free to regard one day of the week above the others, but also free to regard every day the same. So, I have no beef with John keeping the tradition he was raised with from childhood, and which Paul says is OK to continue to keep if you want to. No Bible verse says he had to, and Paul made plain that he didn't.

Just to add, I don't 'keep any day of the week', I keep no days, I worship God EVERY day.

[Lysimachus]

BibleOnly,

Keep in mind that Paul is stating that that "rest" (katapausis) existed in the Old Testament, during Joshua's day. Start in Hebrews 3, and you will see. They failed to enter into that eternal rest, which the Sabbath was a symbol of.

Therefore, it is impossible to state that this Katapausis rest in Christ began with the New Testament, as it existed before.

Remember, in the Old Testament, they broke the Sabbath day. Why? Because they failed to enter into that Katapausis rest. They could not keep the Sabbath because they were not in that eternal rest in God. This is what lead to the destruction of Jerusalem (read Jeremiah 17).

In the Old Testament, we were to worship God every day as well, to walk in that eternal rest daily. But they failed to enter into that rest.

Does that mean that had they entered into that katapausis rest, that would have removed their obligation to physically observe the Sabbath?

Of course not.

To read into Hebrews 4 that Paul is making some "spiritual rest" come along and replace the "physical rest" of the Sabbath is a sheer mockery of God's word, to justify one's self in why they do not have to BEAR THE CROSS and obey God fully, implicitly, and unreservedly!

[Lysimachus]

"So your conclusions that we can keep any day of the week are baseless and absurd."

*sigh* thanks for that productive post. Paul wrote that we're free to regard one day of the week above the others, but also free to regard every day the same. So, I have no beef with John keeping the tradition he was raised with from childhood, and which Paul says is OK to continue to keep if you want to. No Bible verse says he had to, and Paul made plain that he didn't.

Just to add, I don't 'keep any day of the week', I keep no days, I worship God EVERY day.

Paul is dealing with holidays and "doubtful disputations", and the issue is concerning days "men esteem", not which day "God esteems". The issue with the Ten Commandments is NOT in focus in Romans 14.

Notice how the Jews were always concerned about Paul and circumcision. You do realize that the Jews regarded the Sabbath on a MUCH HIGHER level than circumcision? Had Paul been suggesting the Sabbath was no longer obligatory, an outcry of monumental proportions would have exploded throughout Judea, as the priests would be renting their garments concerning Paul's teaching to desecrate God's law.

But no, the Jews were never concerned about Paul and the Sabbath, because Paul never once purposely broke the Sabbath, neither did he teach that it was okay to not keep it Holy. It was always circumcision that was getting their goat. The disputations were on the actual festivals and holidays which different men esteem, but they are no longer obligatory.

Think of Thanksgiving. There is no harm in celebrating it with your family, but it is not obligatory. This is a day that men esteem. But, if you are going to give any regard to this day, why do it unto the Lord!

The Sabbath of the 4th commandment is the day that Jesus is "LORD OF". It is not doubtful. There is nothing doubtful in the Ten Commandments. They are perpetual. They are eternal. They are unchangeable.

It should also be noted that the principles outlined in Romans 14 are analogous with those principles defined in 1 Corinthians 8.

We are to worship God every day. But we are to cease from our business and rest ONCE a week. And that day is God's HOLY and SANCTIFIED and BLESSED and HALLOWED Sabbath Day at Creation in Genesis 2:2,3.

God wants CONCENTRATED QUALITY time, without distractions to meet Him on HIS DAY.

PERIOD.

[BibleOnly]

"Keep in mind that Paul is stating that that "rest" (katapausis) existed in the Old Testament, during Joshua's day. Start in Hebrews 3, and you will see. They failed to enter into that eternal rest, which the Sabbath was a symbol of."

Yes, the whole Law was not flawed, we were flawed in that we could not keep it. Thus it is not the Law that is imperfect, but us. Paul goes over this at length. There was a rest, but we could not enter in. So Jesus had to come to make the law complete, and open the door.

"Remember, in the Old Testament, they broke the Sabbath day. Why? Because they failed to enter into that Katapausis rest. They could not keep the Sabbath because they were not in that eternal rest in God. This is what lead to the destruction of Jerusalem (read Jeremiah 17). "

Exactly. Just as Paul says no-one could be saved under the law, no-one could find that rest, not because God was imperfect, but because we are.

"To read into Hebrews 4 that Paul is making some "spiritual rest" come along and replace the "physical rest" of the Sabbath is a sheer mockery of God's word, to justify one's self in why they do not have to BEAR THE CROSS and obey God fully, implicitly, and unreservedly!"

So you maintain that I am so obtuse that I refuse to take a day of the week off from physical work ? The whole SDA position on the Sabbath is self defeating. What I've been told is:

1 - you don't have to go to church on the Sabbath

2 - there is no law as to what you have to do, you have to make up your own mind

3 - you have to honour the sabbath, but you're free to do it however you like, so long as it involves spending time with other Christians

That is vague and meaningless, and it basically means 'you need to join the SDA or a like minded church, then you can do anything you want'. The Bible never says that we're free to follow our own ideas. You make it like there's this hard line in the sand, but when questioned, there's not. I do in fact see members of the church most Saturdays. I do in fact rest on that day, it's the weekend. But, we're talking about natural things, and I think that God is more concerned with spiritual things, and that I worship and trust Him every day. I have shown from the Bible that if Paul disagreed with me, he was deliberately confusing and vague about it. Funny enough, some SDA members have agreed and said that God hid the truth so that I would not be saved, because I have faith in what the Bible says. I guess that's as logical as your view on what it means to keep the Sabbath.

[Lysimachus]

I edited what I wrote above. Go back and read it again.

[BibleOnly]

Paul is dealing with holidays and "doubtful disputations", and the issue is concerning days "men esteem", not which day "God esteems". The issue with the Ten Commandments is NOT in focus in Romans 14.

I did scan the rest of your waffle, but it's just a repeat of what you've said before and does not change the Bible, so I won't respond.

Why then does God require that we be Greek scholars to understand Paul, and why is it that Paul, if indeed he esteemed the Sabbath as highly as you do, didn't take the time to clarify his point to make sure he was not misunderstood ? I know the Green indicates 'Sabbaths', but, why does the same Greek word not mean THE Sabbath every week ? How is that clear ? It's not. It's a word game because the Bible contradicts you. Paul is always careful to write clearly and not be misunderstood. He couldn't just send a clarifying email the next day. He had to write clearly. And, if he cared about the Sabbath the way that you do, when he addressed the issue of 'special days', he would have added that obviously the Sabbath DOES matter. Indeed, if God wanted His message to be clear, He'd have inspired Paul to do so, for the benefit of those reading Paul in this age.

Your god is so arbitrary as to judge me not on my heart or my actions, but if I chop wood on Saturday. Your god is so cruel that he obscures His message in the hope that people are condemned. He is not the God of the Bible.

[BibleOnly]

I edited what I wrote above. Go back and read it again.

you're right, I am smart enough that after this time, I can scan your posts and see if any new points were made or if it's the same waffle. How can you say 'the scriptures are clear' when your position is that God made them unclear so that only the smarter people can be saved ?

Just to add, ... enter in to the rest God has made for you, which is more than a natural rest of not working one day of the week, it's something far bigger and more wonderful, which you will never see unless you abandon your natural reading of a spiritual law.

[Lysimachus]

"Keep in mind that Paul is stating that that "rest" (katapausis) existed in the Old Testament, during Joshua's day. Start in Hebrews 3, and you will see. They failed to enter into that eternal rest, which the Sabbath was a symbol of."

Yes, the whole Law was not flawed, we were flawed in that we could not keep it. Thus it is not the Law that is imperfect, but us. Paul goes over this at length. There was a rest, but we could not enter in. So Jesus had to come to make the law complete, and open the door.