Keeping the Sabbath

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled [accomplished].

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall DO and TEACH them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In light of the context, it is impossible to interpret "fulfill" in the sense that Christ did it for us, now we don't have to, as he completed it, because then that wouldn't flow with verse 19 where he says to DO and TEACH them. He's telling them what they must do after Christ leaves for heaven! He's educating them on what they must TEACH to the whole world!

The qualifier "till heaven and earth pass" is clear enough.

[Lysimachus]

Notice that the 4th commandment was still "according to the commandment" after the New Covenant had been ratified at the Cross on Friday:

http://www.homeschoolalumni.org/weblog_entry.php?e=38145

[BibleOnly]

"Principles" were not done away with, but the "law" was?

What kind of nonsensical logic is that?

How can sin exist??

What is sin? Scriptures define it plainly for us: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Romans 7:7). "For where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). "But sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). "The strength of sin is the law" (1 Corinthians 15:56).

The Moral Law of God, as contained in the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven (Revelation 11:19 and 15:5), cannot be done away with. The word "fulfilled" in Matthew 5 does not mean "completed". It means he "lived up to its fullest". Now we must "fulfill the law of Christ" (Gal 6:6), and we must be "crucified WITH Christ" (Gal 2:20). We are to "walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6), and we are to "follow his steps" (1 Peter 2:21)

If you interpret "fulfilled" with your own preconceived ideas, then none of what I just said above means anything, as Christ "completed" it, so why would we have to follow after something and walk after something that He already completed?

That makes no sense.

Assuming all of this is true ( and assuming you've accurately stated my position, which is also not true ), why did Paul tell the church twice not to keep the Sabbath, and why does no New Testament verse tell the church to keep it ?

[BibleOnly]

Notice that the 4th commandment was still "according to the commandment" after the New Covenant had been ratified at the Cross on Friday:

http://www.homeschoolalumni.org/weblog_entry.php?e=38145

I answered this above, when someone else told me to read it, instead of answering me directly.

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Notice that the 4th commandment was still "according to the commandment" after the New Covenant had been ratified at the Cross on Friday:

http://www.homeschoolalumni.org/weblog_entry.php?e=38145

I answered this above, when someone else told me to read it, instead of answering me directly.

You have not responded to my post above, and I think it answers some of your questions, for I feel that you are misreading scriptures, or taking them out of context.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

"Principles" were not done away with, but the "law" was?

What kind of nonsensical logic is that?

How can sin exist??

What is sin? Scriptures define it plainly for us: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Romans 7:7). "For where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). "But sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). "The strength of sin is the law" (1 Corinthians 15:56).

The Moral Law of God, as contained in the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven (Revelation 11:19 and 15:5), cannot be done away with. The word "fulfilled" in Matthew 5 does not mean "completed". It means he "lived up to its fullest". Now we must "fulfill the law of Christ" (Gal 6:6), and we must be "crucified WITH Christ" (Gal 2:20). We are to "walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6), and we are to "follow his steps" (1 Peter 2:21)

If you interpret "fulfilled" with your own preconceived ideas, then none of what I just said above means anything, as Christ "completed" it, so why would we have to follow after something and walk after something that He already completed?

That makes no sense.

Assuming all of this is true ( and assuming you've accurately stated my position, which is also not true ), why did Paul tell the church twice not to keep the Sabbath, and why does no New Testament verse tell the church to keep it ?

Because in neither of those statements was Paul talking about the 4th commandment "The Sabbath". He was referring to shadow sabbaths of Hosea 2:11, the Day of Atonement, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Trumpets, etc. etc. Sound exegetical studies have been produced on Colossians 2:16, establishing that it was impossible for Paul to be alluding to the 4th commandment Sabbath.

Several translations even capitalize the word "Sabbath" every time it is alluding to the 4th commandment Sabbath, but then uses a lowercase "s" when alluding to the seasonal sabbaths.

Colossians 2:14 states "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that were against us"

This sets the context for Colossians 2:16, and shows that Paul can only be referring to:

1. Something that was handwritten on paper, as the Greek word for "blotting" and "handwritten" [chirographan], refers to literal ink on paper--and a literal erasing of such ink on paper--not erasing carved letters in stone.

2. Deuteronomy 31:24-28 unequivocally and unapologetically declares that the law that was a witness "against" the children of Israel was in a book, and placed on the SIDE of the Ark of the Covenant--meaning, it is specifically referring to the certificate of debt found in the ceremonial system--which testified against their sins. The Ten Commandments, or Tables of Stone, were placed IN SIDE the Ark of the Covenant (Duet. 10:5; 2 Chron. 5:10; Heb. 9:4). These Tables were called "the testimony"(Exodus 25:16,21,22; 31:18; 32:15; 34:29), and this same "testimony" --the original which Moses' was copied after---is found in Heaven's Ark in the New Testament Revelation 11:19; 15:5).

3. The end of Colossians 2:17 qualifies "WHICH" sabbaths Paul is talking about...."sabbaths which are a shadow of things to come". Which kind of sabbaths? Those which are a shadow of things to come. So he cannot be referring to the 4th commandment Sabbath, as that points backward to creation, and the shadow sabbaths such as Passover and the Day of Atonement pointed forward to Christ's death and resurrection.

Also, concerning Romans 14....

Paul is not dealing with which days God esteems. He's dealing with which days "men esteem".

God already esteems the 4th commandment Sabbath. But Paul is dealing specifically with holidays that men esteem...."one man esteems one day above another". Verse 1 qualifies that Paul is referring to "doubtful disputations"-- can one honestly say the Ten Commandments have anything "doubtful"? Of course not. Also, verse 2 is referring to "herbs"--bitter herbs were eaten at Passover. The issue here is then in context of various Holidays esteemed by the Jews and Gentiles. The issue here is nothing to do with the Ten Commandments which Paul unequivocally quoted from in Romans 13:8-10, 7:7 and Ephesians 6:1-3. In fact, in Ephesians 6:1-3, Paul declares the 5th commandment to honor your father and mother as the "FIRST" commandment with "promise". Truly, out of the 10 commandment, it is the first commandment with promise, and it is the first commandment on the second table of stone. Without question, Paul is indirectly admitting and establishing the perpetual validity of the Ten Commandments.

Paul also kept the Sabbath according to Acts 13:42-44; 16:13; 17:2; and 18:4.

Hebrews 4 establishes the meaning of the Sabbath. It is a symbol of our eternal rest in Christ. When we rest on the Sabbath, we are celebrating the fact that we rely on the merits of Christ, and not our own works. It is like Baptism in a sense that we celebrate the new-birth experience. Well, keeping the Sabbath celebrates and "acknowledges" the fact that we are not to trust to our own works, but in the works of our Redeemer.

[Lysimachus]

Here are 2 powerful articles that divulge into the importance of the Sabbath:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter9.pdf

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter12.pdf

[BibleOnly]

You have not responded to my post above, and I think it answers some of your questions, for I feel that you are misreading scriptures, or taking them out of context.

I didn't see it, sorry :-)

Yes, James points out that the law is needed for those who don't walk in the Spirit, those constrained by the desire to do right, will not be looking for excuses to do wrong. In fact, they will more than keep the law. And yes, the whole point is that the 'golden rule' encapsulates the commandments in two statements of attitude. The question is, how does the Sabbath fit in to 'love the Lord with all your heart, and soul, and mind, and strength' ? Does it mean I do that on Saturday, or every day ?

The core question really is, why did Paul say that we're not to be judged according to the keeping of the Sabbath, and also say that while some people can regard one day above another, we're also free to regard every day as being the same ?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Bert

You have not responded to my post above, and I think it answers some of your questions, for I feel that you are misreading scriptures, or taking them out of context.

I didn't see it, sorry :-)

Yes, James points out that the law is needed for those who don't walk in the Spirit, those constrained by the desire to do right, will not be looking for excuses to do wrong. In fact, they will more than keep the law. And yes, the whole point is that the 'golden rule' encapsulates the commandments in two statements of attitude. The question is, how does the Sabbath fit in to 'love the Lord with all your heart, and soul, and mind, and strength' ? Does it mean I do that on Saturday, or every day ?

The core question really is, why did Paul say that we're not to be judged according to the keeping of the Sabbath, and also say that while some people can regard one day above another, we're also free to regard every day as being the same ?

I've been chatting with you for some time on this issue BibleOnly. I realize that the Sabbath is a new and foreign concept to you so it may take awhile for you to grasp. That is fine. Let me just outline a few things I feel are worth repeating:

We keep both the 10 commandments and the Golden Rule. The ten commandments are included IN the Golden Rule. So the ten commandments are the easy part. The Golden Rule is just an expansion and a more difficult expansion.

Honoring God on the Sabbath is important. It is one of the commandments so obviously it is. But of course we also honor him every day. What I don't understand is why you are opposed to honoring him on the 7th day. You seem to be a 6 day Christian and that I don't comprehend.

As a Christian - are we judged by keeping the Sabbath? No. Are we judged by keeping ANY of the commandments? No. We are judged by Christ's keeping of the commandments. He is the ONLY answer. WE are unable to keep the commandments. SO thus we deserve death. That is UNLESS we accept that JESUS took our place.

We should not place one day above another and we should not place one commandment above another. Each is important. Christ did not do away with the commandments . But rather he fulfilled the commandments that the curse of the law would not apply to those IN Him.

I hope this again answers your questions in a slightly different format. Being new to this I am sure you will need it repeated again. But that is fine. Good to have you here.

[BibleOnly]

Because in neither of those statements was Paul talking about the 4th commandment "The Sabbath". He was referring to shadow sabbaths of Hosea 2:11, the Day of Atonement, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Trumpets, etc. etc. Sound exegetical studies have been produced on Colossians 2:16, establishing that it was impossible for Paul to be alluding to the 4th commandment Sabbath.

[BibleOnly]

I've been chatting with you for some time on this issue BibleOnly. I realize that the Sabbath is a new and foreign concept to you so it may take awhile for you to grasp. That is fine. Let me just outline a few things I feel are worth repeating:

We keep both the 10 commandments and the Golden Rule. The ten commandments are included IN the Golden Rule. So the ten commandments are the easy part. The Golden Rule is just an expansion and a more difficult expansion.

[Woody]

Quote:

I agree. But if we don't place one day above another, what does Sabbath keeping mean ?

Sabbath in one way of looking at it - is a re-charging of the batteries and the rest of the days of the week are the important part of going out and getting the work done.

When you recharge the batteries it is for a purpose. To go out and accomplish something. Once the batteries are placed back in - THEN the work begins. Both the charging and the work are important. We should not neglect either one.

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

I agree. But if we don't place one day above another, what does Sabbath keeping mean ?

Sabbath in one way of looking at it - is a re-charging of the batteries and the rest of the days of the week are the important part of going out and getting the work done.

When you recharge the batteries it is for a purpose. To go out and accomplish something. Once the batteries are placed back in - THEN the work begins. Both the charging and the work are important. We should not neglect either one.

OK, so, why does God care which day I do that on ? Doesn't the West have a two day weekend ? I work around the house on both days, often do church things on both days, but I recharge from my week on both days, too.

[Woody]

Quote:

What do you do on the Sabbath to make it a special day above the others ?

Again - I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for the church as I' ve given you the stance of the church with the link I provided.

But for me - I stop my life as I know it on Sabbath. I devote the day to honoring God and recharging my spiritual batteries. I block out the world in some senses. Of course that does not mean that I can't get into the world to do GOOD. That is one aspect of the Sabbath. The idea of stopping all work is again - to focus all my thoughts and energies on God. It is impossible to do that each day of the week. WE are instructed and commanded to work SIX days a week. One simply can not and should not have a Sabbath each day of the week.

I could make you a list of what I DO on Sabbath and what I DON'T do. But that is only for me personally. I am not about to set off a list of rules like the Jews did. And neither is the church going to do that.

What I do on the Sabbath is set it apart to wholely and completely devote it to God. I make the day HOLY. Set apart from the other days to be used totally for God and HIS glory. Set apart to be used of God.

What that all means to others and to you will be different. And that is Okay. I gave you some examples previously. But I prefer to speak in principles rather than practice or application.

To try to make one day above another is fruitless. Yes the Sabbath IS important. But so also is getting out and doing the work on the other days of the week. Please refer to my "charging of the batteries" example. Which is more important to you - charging the batteries or letting the work being done? To me the Sabbath is the easy part. It is the easy day. The rest of my life outside of Sabbath is hard. But it is none the less important.

[Lysimachus]

I know that the word "herbs" means vegetables. It matters not.

But this Greek word also translated "vegetables" was also used to describe what was used at Passover. So you are the one playing word games here, not us.

I've done my research on this matter.

Read this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21748008/Romans-14-the-Day-The-Herbs-The-Unclean#full

[Woody]

Quote:

OK, so, why does God care which day I do that on ?

I long ago stopped questioning God as to why He does something. I simply don't understand all about God.

But I will tell you that God felt we needed a weekly cycle. He created the Earth in that fashion. He then established the Sabbath by participating in it from the beginning of time.

He made us. He knows what we need. I am not about to question my Creator.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Colossians 2:14 states "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that were against us"

This sets the context for Colossians 2:16, and shows that Paul can only be referring to:

1. Something that was handwritten on paper, as the Greek word for "blotting" and "handwritten" [chirographan], refers to literal ink on paper--and a literal erasing of such ink on paper--not erasing carved letters in stone.

This is a word game. God didn't literally remove something written somewhere, He removed the hold the writing had over us. We still have those writings in the OT, so they are obviously not blotted out.

Of course the actual letters were not literally blotted out. The reason this phraseology was used was to express the spiritual significance of blotting out the requirements related to these letters. Paul is using literal expression of blotting out the handwriting--actual Greek words that express a literal blotting out of ink on paper to express a spiritual understanding that these Jewish rites are no longer significant.

Time to stop playing word games...

[BibleOnly]

Of course the actual letters were not literally blotted out. The reason this phraseology was used was to express the spiritual significance of blotting out the requirements related to these letters. Paul is using literal expression of blotting out the handwriting--actual Greek words that express a literal blotting out of ink on paper to express a spiritual understanding that these Jewish rites are no longer significant.

Time to stop playing word games...

OK, so it was not literally blotted out. So, it does not matter what medium it was written on, what matters is that the words themselves, and the hold they had over us was blotted out. It seems to me that you're suggesting that Paul was writing in a code that was designed so no-one could understand it without the SDA to interpret.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Of course the actual letters were not literally blotted out. The reason this phraseology was used was to express the spiritual significance of blotting out the requirements related to these letters. Paul is using literal expression of blotting out the handwriting--actual Greek words that express a literal blotting out of ink on paper to express a spiritual understanding that these Jewish rites are no longer significant.

Time to stop playing word games...

OK, so it was not literally blotted out. So, it does not matter what medium it was written on, what matters is that the words themselves, and the hold they had over us was blotted out. It seems to me that you're suggesting that Paul was writing in a code that was designed so no-one could understand it without the SDA to interpret.

It is you who is suggesting that Paul meant for literal words to be blotted out.

1 Cor 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

What do you do on the Sabbath to make it a special day above the others ?

Again - I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for the church as I' ve given you the stance of the church with the link I provided.

To try to make one day above another is fruitless. Yes the Sabbath IS important. But so also is getting out and doing the work on the other days of the week. Please refer to my "charging of the batteries" example. Which is more important to you - charging the batteries or letting the work being done? To me the Sabbath is the easy part. It is the easy day. The rest of my life outside of Sabbath is hard. But it is none the less important.

OK, all of that makes sense to me. As I said, I do the same thing over the weekend. What I don't get is the suggestion that God cares enough about what day I go to church, in this context, that in the end times it will be at risk to my soul, and in the meantime, it's a big enough deal for others on this thread to launch personal attacks at me, and for an entire church to be built around emphasising one day as being especially important.

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

OK, so, why does God care which day I do that on ?

I long ago stopped questioning God as to why He does something. I simply don't understand all about God.

But I will tell you that God felt we needed a weekly cycle. He created the Earth in that fashion. He then established the Sabbath by participating in it from the beginning of time.

He made us. He knows what we need. I am not about to question my Creator.

*grin* fair enough. And if the New Testament didn't establish that the Sabbath has been fulfilled in the rest a Christian has in Christ, if there was actual clear NT scripture that said I had to go to church on Saturday, I'd be there in a second. Honestly.

[Woody]

Quote:

*grin* fair enough. And if the New Testament didn't establish that the Sabbath has been fulfilled in the rest a Christian has in Christ, if there was actual clear NT scripture that said I had to go to church on Saturday, I'd be there in a second. Honestly.

There in lies the difference between us. You are a New Testament Christian. I personally believe as the church does - that ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is thus profitable. The Sabbath was well established. It was a no brainer for the New Testament Church. There was no need to hit people over the head with something well understood and established in the Torah.

The God I know - did not all of a sudden change His strips from the Old to the New Testament.

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

*grin* fair enough. And if the New Testament didn't establish that the Sabbath has been fulfilled in the rest a Christian has in Christ, if there was actual clear NT scripture that said I had to go to church on Saturday, I'd be there in a second. Honestly.

There in lies the difference between us. You are a New Testament Christian. I personally believe as the church does - that ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is thus profitable. The Sabbath was well established. It was a no brainer for the New Testament Church. There was no need to hit people over the head with something well understood and established in the Torah.

The God I know - did not all of a sudden change His strips from the Old to the New Testament.

Well, that's not true. I read the OT a lot, and I regard it as very important, I am not a 'New Testament only Christian'. But, I also know that the New Testament was a new covenant, built on better promises. I know the early church grappled with what aspects of the old law to keep. I know that, for example, there was a question of if non Jews could be saved at all, and if the food laws and circumcision needed to be kept. Assuming that we don't regard that God influenced the writing of the new testament in order to make the answers to all possible questions clear for people then and now ( and I'm not being facetious, someone else on this thread indicated that God made the issue of the Sabbath unclear so that only people with lots of faith would find the truth ), then I would somewhat accept the idea that the Sabbath was just never in doubt, and so is not mentioned, except for the simple fact that it IS mentioned three times, twice to tell us we don't need to keep it in the OT legalistic sense, and once to remind us that the keeping of the Saturday was a pointer to us having rest every day in Christ.

[Woody]

Thanks for your reply BibleOnly.

Could you expound for me the reasons that you dismiss the Sabbath and instead feel it would not be proper to go to church on Saturdays? Why is Sunday so special? Or any other day other than Saturday?

[phkrause]

As I've mentioned before, at least for myself and I'd guess most SDAs can agree, is we worship on the Sabbath not only because of the 10Cs, but because as He says in Genesis 2:2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce.. Also we as SDAs except the OT and the NT, not just one but both parts of the Bible.