Keeping the Sabbath

[Lysimachus]

I think I see it. The SDA was started by people who did not know the Bible terribly well, based on a pure idea, that if we need to keep the 10 commandments, we need to know which day is the Sabbath. By definition, as questions like this have been raised, only the people who could come up with a solution have stayed. The people who found the verses I quoted and believed them in English, instead of trying to find a solution in the Greek, have left, by definition. This does not mean there's anything wrong with worshipping on a Saturday. Or a Friday. Or any day. But, the Bible says you can't keep one part of the law without keeping it all. If you tie yourself to an unchanging OT law, you need to keep all of it. The Bible never indicates that the 10 commandments are more important than the rest of the law, or will endure in that form when the rest decays. Instead it says that the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, an example of the perfection to come.

The highlighted portion of your statement above would indicate the heart of your misunderstanding concerning God's law.

From where did you get the idea that keeping "all" or the "whole" of God's law implicates the keeping of all the Old Testament laws recorded in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, for example?

I'll tell you where you got it from. You got it from James 2:10. Let's quote it:

• James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Hence, based on this verse, your logic is that since we are already guilty before God, we don't need to try and keep the "whole law", because, keeping the "whole law" anyway would require keeping all 613 laws! Would it not?

But it is my hope before God that once I show you full the full context, the Spirit of God will show you that this reasoning must prove to be faulty:

• James

  2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

  2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

  2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

  2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

  2:12 So SPEAK YE, and SO DO, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Let us raise the question: If James was in any way shape or form implying that we are not required to keep the whole law. why is he contradicting this in verse 12 telling us to "SPEAK" it and "DO" it?

Let us raise the second question: If the "WHOLE LAW" in the context of what James is saying above meant all 613 laws, yet the commandments contained in ordinances have been abolished according to Colossians 2:14-17 and Ephesians 2:15 in the New Covenant, and we no longer have to keep them, then why is James contradicting himself in both verse 11 (where breaking one out of 2 examples of them is to transgress the law) and verse 12 (where it says so SPEAK YE and SO DO)? The context of "doing" and "not transgressing" in verse 11 and 12 is in the SAME context of the "whole law" in verse 10!

The good news is, however, that there is a solution to this seeming contradiction.

The solution to this is to conclude that the phrase "whole law" does not always mean all 613 laws. It also means the "whole" 10 commandment Moral Law, for which he quoted 2 from it. A whole bunch of other laws also found in those 613 laws are simply ceremonial/remedial laws that were designed to deal with the problem of sin against the Moral Precepts contained in the Ark of the Covenant, which represents the foundation (or "habitation") of God's Throne. (Psalms 89:14; 119:142).

The Moral Law is the "base" law. The ceremonial laws (sacrifices, offerings, circumcision, shavings, sprinklings, services, etc.) were simply the additional laws put in place to remedy the transgression against the "base" law. They pointed to Christ, who is our "sin handler". Therefore, these "ceremonies" simply were tokens, or reminders, pointing forward to what Christ was going to do for us on the Cross and in His heavenly sanctuary, interceding before the Father, before the Ark of the Covenant which contained the ORIGINAL Ten Commandments!

These Old Testament ceremonial laws were "types" of the services Christ was going to be performing in the New Covenant time frame--where Christ would perform the "antitype" of these services. In the HEAVENLY sanctuary, not the earthly sanctuary.

Therefore, the antitype of these Old Testament laws are now realized in the following verses:

• Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

  2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

  Hebrews 9:9 - Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience

  Hebrews 9:23 [it was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

  1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

  Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

  1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

  Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

  Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

  Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

  Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

  Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

  8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Amazing! So these laws I guess are still in effect, but have been only blotted out TYPICALLY, and are now realized ANTITYPICALLY!

Notice how Paul emphasizes that keeping God's commandments is still important, but the physical keeping of circumcision or uncircumcision is nothing:

• 1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

With this in mind, one may ask "so isn't it the same with the Sabbath? Shouldn't we keep it only spiritually, and not physically?"

The answer to this question is a downright, straightforward NO.

The Sabbath was instituted in Genesis 2:2,3 before any sin existed on the planet. Therefore, the Sabbath could not be a "remedy" for sin!!! Not killing, not stealing, not committing adultery, honoring your parents, not worshiping idols, not putting anything else before God, not coveting anything that is your neighbors, not taking God's name in vain, etc. etc. were ALREADY existing institutions that defined God's moral character!

They did not need to be written down in stone because they were ALREADY written in men's hearts. After man forgot them, and lost their heart-felt meaning, God seared them in stone to make a point--but his point was that he wanted that which was seared in stone BACK into the hearts of men!!!

Now let us get back to the point about what represents the "WHOLE LAW" in James 2:

• 2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the WHOLE LAW AND the STATUTES AND the ORDINANCES BY THE HAND OF MOSES.

Notice that the Bible distinguishes the "whole law" from the statutes and ordinances by the hand of Moses. Also, the fact that the "whole law", or "all the commandments" can be distinguished from other laws is evidently clear in Deuteronomy chapter 5:

Immediately after God gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments, and before the other ceremonial laws were added, this is what the Lord called them concerning what he "spoke" audibly on Mount Sinai:

• Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

  5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, [even] all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

  5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

  5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.

  5:26 For who [is there of] all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we [have], and lived?

  5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear [it], and do [it].

  5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.

  5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep ALL my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

  5:30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.

  5:31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee ALL the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do [them] in the land which I give them to possess it.

  5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.

  5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess.

God said, "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalms 89:34)

Question: Which was the only covenant God audibly spoke with his own lips? It was the Ten Commandments!

He spoke NO OTHER to the children of Israel. The others he instructed Moses, and Moses delivered them to the Israelites. But the Ten Commandments themselves, before Moses gave the rest of the laws, were a "WHOLE LAW" in themselves, that NO MORE were added to.

Some may say, "but what about the 'WHOLE LAW' in Galatians 5:3"?

• Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Not so fast there! Paul is using the phrase "whole law" now in a DIFFERENT context, and a DIFFERENT setting. Sometimes "THE law" meant only the Moral Law. Sometimes "THE law" meant only the ceremonial law. And sometimes "THE law" meant BOTH the Moral Law and the Ceremonial law COMBINED.

Context demands which law Paul is talking about! In Galatians 5:3, Paul is speaking in context of "circumcision"--the "whole law of ceremonial rites and ordinances". In James 2, James is referring to the "whole law" in context of the law of liberty--(liberty from sin)--that we are to "speak" and "do", and "not transgress".

Those individuals who think there is no distinction in "THE law" have not read their Bible's thoroughly enough.

Here is irrefutable proof:

• “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it” (Deuteronomy 4:13, 14).

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments, which “he commanded you,” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments, which Moses passed on to the people, were designated as a separate and distinct “law.”

God answers that important question in such a way that no doubt can remain.

• “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” (2 Kings 21:8)

Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a “law.” Any child can discern that two different laws are being described. God speaks of the law “I commanded” and also the “law ... Moses commanded.” Unless this truth is understood properly, limitless confusion will result.

Daniel was inspired to make the same careful distinction when he prayed for the desolated sanctuary of his scattered nation.

• “Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him” (Daniel 9:11).

Once more we see “thy law” and “the law of Moses,” and this time the two are recognized as different in content. There are no curses recorded in the Ten Commandments that God wrote, but the law which Moses wrote contained an abundance of such curses and judgments.

No word games here! The distinction is as plain as noon-light is to the noon-day sun!

[BobRyan]

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath ? Is there any record of the New Testament church doing this ? Did Jesus ever tell the church to do this ? Did Paul ?

1. Jesus said that when HE made the Sabbath He made it "FOR MANKIND" Mark 2:27. We here on this board - are all part of that group "mankind".

2. In Heb 4 "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" it "remains" from the same Sabbath rest quoted in Psalms 95 - available in David's day.

3. In Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath" said God - "Shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New heavens and New earth of Rev 21.

4. The 4th commandment is quoted in Acts 4, Acts 17 and Rev 14 - how then we be so quick to ignore what God said to "remember"??

5. James 2 says that he who chooses to rebel against ONE of God's commandments might as well choose to break them all.

6. Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

7. John says that the one who CLAIMS to know Christ and yet does NOT choose to keep His commandments is not telling the truth - 1John 2.

Lots more - just running out of time tonight to post.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I've replied to this over and over.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Did Jesus fulfil the law, or not ? If not, what did He do ? If so, how does that change things ?

Fulfill does not mean "abolish".

Jesus "fulfilled" the Lev 19:18 law to "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Jesus "fulfilled" the Deut 6:5 law to "Love God with all of your heart".

And Jesus told John the baptizer that he must baptize Jesus and so "fulfill all righteousness".

Fulfill does not mean "abolish".

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

From where did you get the idea that keeping "all" or the "whole" of God's law implicates the keeping of all the Old Testament laws recorded in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, for example?

I'll tell you where you got it from. You got it from James 2:10. Let's quote it:

• James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Hence, based on this verse, your logic is that since we are already guilty before God, we don't need to try and keep the "whole law", because, keeping the "whole law" anyway would require keeping all 613 laws! Would it not?

But it is my hope before God that once I show you full the full context, the Spirit of God will show you that this reasoning must prove to be faulty:

• James

  2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

  2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

  2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

  2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

  2:12 So SPEAK YE, and SO DO, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Let us raise the question: If James was in any way shape or form implying that we are not required to keep the whole law. why is he contradicting this in verse 12 telling us to "SPEAK" it and "DO" it?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I've replied to this over and over.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Did Jesus fulfil the law, or not ? If not, what did He do ? If so, how does that change things ?

Fulfill does not mean "abolish".

Jesus "fulfilled" the Lev 19:18 law to "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Jesus "fulfilled" the Deut 6:5 law to "Love God with all of your heart".

And Jesus told John the baptizer that he must baptize Jesus and so "fulfill all righteousness".

Fulfill does not mean "abolish".

in Christ,

Bob

I agree. Fulfill cannot mean abolish. And so, it's not the case that I no longer can have rest. Instead, I have a rest better than the one day a week Sabbath of the Old Testament, even as I no longer go to the temple, but am myself the temple of God. How, if I am the temple, can any day be less holy than any other ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath ? Is there any record of the New Testament church doing this ? Did Jesus ever tell the church to do this ? Did Paul ?

1. Jesus said that when HE made the Sabbath He made it "FOR MANKIND" Mark 2:27. We here on this board - are all part of that group "mankind".

Yes, and so we're able to partake of the fullness of what the Sabbath is in the New Testament, which is a better covenant than the Old.

2. In Heb 4 "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" it "remains" from the same Sabbath rest quoted in Psalms 95 - available in David's day.

But in David's day it was not Saturday, but, 'today'. So, he was obviously talking prophetically, about our age.

3. In Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath" said God - "Shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New heavens and New earth of Rev 21.

Yes, and when Israel is restored by the church, I am sure Israel will keep the Sabbath, but the church will not, we will not be with Israel, but ruling over them

4. The 4th commandment is quoted in Acts 4, Acts 17 and Rev 14 - how then we be so quick to ignore what God said to "remember"??

This is just a word game. It says 'remember' because it's a once a week thing to remember. "remember not to covet your neighbours donkey' makes no sense.

5. James 2 says that he who chooses to rebel against ONE of God's commandments might as well choose to break them all.

Yes, this is true. But, that does not mean that the church needs to keep the commandments given to Israel. In fact, at least 3 NT scriptures say we don't need to keep the OT sabbath, and not one says that we do.

6. Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Yes, as in 'if you love me, keep my commandments'. That means, do what God said to you, not 'keep the 10 commandments I gave Israel'

7. John says that the one who CLAIMS to know Christ and yet does NOT choose to keep His commandments is not telling the truth - 1John 2.

Yes. See above.

Lots more - just running out of time tonight to post.

You can't just concordance the word 'commandment' and assume it always means the 10. Did Jesus not tell us anything ? Did Jesus have no message apart from 'keep doing what you're doing, I'm just going to let myself be killed now' ?

[Lysimachus]

Where does the Bible say this ? Why does the Bible say 'in that day will I write my law in their hearts' instead of 'in that day will I again write my law in their hearts' ? Who had the law written in their hearts before ? Were does the Bible support this view ?

Snip the rest ( although I read it ). I am still struggling with the idea that Jesus died so things could be the same, so we could continue to keep a law that could not save. I don't understand why Jesus came to give us rest, if He just gave us the rest we already had, once a week. I don't understand why Hebrews talks about a change in circumstance when things stayed the same. Above all, I don't see how taking Saturday off is the sign of God's people.

• Psalms 37:31 The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

  Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

  Psalms 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

  Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

  3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

  3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart.

  Proverbs 7:1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.

  7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

  7:3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.

  Deut 6:4-9

  4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

  5 "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

  6 "And these words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart;|

  7 and you shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.

  8 "And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

  9 "And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

  Deut 11:18-22

  18 "You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

  Exod 13:9, 16

  9 "And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand , and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.

  16 "So it shall serve as a sign on your hand, and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."

Israel failed to have God's law's written in their hearts.

This is why the Old Covenant "failed". And a New one became necessary. This is another large Bible study in itself. The Old Covenant was never called "Old" before it failed. It was called the "Covenant". Not until it failed was it called "old". In fact, it was never God's intent for the Old Covenant to fail. But according to Hebrews 8:7-10 and Romans 9:31,32, the Old Covenant failed due to Israel's fault, not God's fault. What was that fault? By not seeking the law of righteousness by faith, but by works.

The Old Covenant was an issue of the heart, not an issue of "this covenant we obtain salvation by works, and the next covenant we obtain it by faith". That's silly evangelicalism that completely has no comprehension of God's plan of salvation.

The Old Covenant failed because of the way Israel promised. They attempted to keep God's laws by their own efforts, through the letter, rather than by faith and having the law written in their hearts because they loved God.

God never wanted the Israelites to perform any services out of works. He wanted them to do it out of love.

The issue of "works" has nothing to do with whether we obey the law or not. Salvation by works has to do with the fact that we have the "wrong motive" for performing those works. If you are doing it as a ticket to heaven, you will fail in the end. But, if you are doing it simply because you want to please God and you love Him so much, similar to how loving husband goes out of his way to please his wife, not to gain any benefits, but because he truly loves her, then you will succeed in the end.

God will give us the power to keep His Divine Moral Laws if we ask for the strength.

God's Grace imputes strength and power to overcome sin (transgression of the law).

• 2 Cor 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

:)

[BibleOnly]

Much of Psalms is prophetic. None of this really proves your point. I agree, God's grace gives us power to overcome sin, through the Holy Spirit. But, is life in the Spirit exactly the same as life under the law ? The temple veil was torn, what does this mean ? When Paul says we're not children of Sinai, what does he mean ?

[Lysimachus]

When you have a chance, read this amazing article:

Why the Old Covenant Failed (PDF)

And here is another amazing website:

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/

You will find just about every answer you are looking for. Also, watch that 5-part series on the Sabbath narrated by Hal Holbrook. Amazing documentary! All online for free.

[BibleOnly]

I've actually read most of the Sabbath Truth site already....

[Tom Wetmore]

Remember, a Sign, a Mark, and a Seal are synonymous throughout scripture.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Cor. 1:21-22.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Remember, a Sign, a Mark, and a Seal are synonymous throughout scripture.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Cor. 1:21-22.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30.

Thanks. Excellent parallel there.

Here is an article I wrote on this subject, which I thought maybe you guys might like:

Is the Seal of God the Holy Spirit or the Law?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48232181/Is-the-Seal-of-God-the-Holy-Spirit-or-the-Law

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Remember, a Sign, a Mark, and a Seal are synonymous throughout scripture.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Cor. 1:21-22.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph. 4:30.

Excellent, I agree. So, if the Holy Spirit is the seal of God on us, how do we know that we have the Holy Spirit ? How is it a seal, if it's completely invisible and judged only by our feelings and emotions, which can not be trusted ? What does the Bible say ?

[BobRyan]

Fulfill does not mean "abolish".

Jesus "fulfilled" the Lev 19:18 law to "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Jesus "fulfilled" the Deut 6:5 law to "Love God with all of your heart".

And Jesus told John the baptizer that he must baptize Jesus and so "fulfill all righteousness".

Fulfill does not mean "abolish".

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I agree. Fulfill cannot mean abolish. And so, it's not the case that I no longer can have rest.

Or that you can choose to no longer observe Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

[BobRyan]

I agree. Fulfill cannot mean abolish. And so, it's not the case that I no longer can have rest.

[BobRyan]

If Jesus came to give us rest, what rest is that ? Is it the Sabbath ? If so, how did He give it to us ? If He gives us permanent rest, how is that compatible with needing a rest once a week ? If Jesus died to just keep things the same, what was the point ?

[BobRyan]

Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ? How did you know ?

John and Christ had an interesting way for us to address that question.

In Matt 7 Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father"

Paul said it almost the same way in Romans 2:11-16

And then of course John said -

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1John 2

In John 1 - John tells us that Christ is "THE WORD" of God even before the Cross - even before the New Testament age.

He tells us this again in Rev 19.

No wonder then that Paul says in Gal 3 that "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham". And for Paul it is the "ONE Gospel" as he reminds us in Galatians 1:6-11

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

If Jesus came to give us rest, what rest is that ? Is it the Sabbath ? If so, how did He give it to us ? If He gives us permanent rest, how is that compatible with needing a rest once a week ? If Jesus died to just keep things the same, what was the point ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ? How did you know ?

John and Christ had an interesting way for us to address that question.

In Matt 7 Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father"

[BobRyan]

If Jesus came to give us rest, what rest is that ? Is it the Sabbath ? If so, how did He give it to us ? If He gives us permanent rest, how is that compatible with needing a rest once a week ? If Jesus died to just keep things the same, what was the point ?

-------------------

Seems to me you did not answer this

AGreed - I quoted it and then forgot to reply --

There is only "ONE gospel" according to Paul in Gal 1:6-11. So Enoch enters into that "ONE Gospel" rest and so also does Abraham and David and Samuel and Moses according to God. They all had to be "born again" - Christ affirms this point pre-cross to Nicodemus and argues that as an Old Testament Scholar - Nicodemus had to already know this.

ONE Gospel. One entry for REST in Christ.

"They all drank the same spiritual drink.. from the same ROCK and that ROCK was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

Being born again - brings us into harmony WITH the Law of God - not in rebellion against it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them' date=' The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

This has to be the most insane interpretation of the Bible from you yet. Jesus said that the Sabbath was given to benefit man, not vice versa. It is for this reason that God does not require us to keep the Sabbath[/quote']

so... you are reading your own posts right??

Would you like a do-over on that one?

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

If Jesus came to give us rest, what rest is that ? Is it the Sabbath ? If so, how did He give it to us ? If He gives us permanent rest, how is that compatible with needing a rest once a week ? If Jesus died to just keep things the same, what was the point ?

-------------------

Seems to me you did not answer this

AGreed - I quoted it and then forgot to reply --

There is only "ONE gospel" according to Paul in Gal 1:6-11. So Enoch enters into that "ONE Gospel" rest and so also does Abraham and David and Samuel and Moses according to God. They all had to be "born again" - Christ affirms this point pre-cross to Nicodemus and argues that as an Old Testament Scholar - Nicodemus had to already know this.

ONE Gospel. One entry for REST in Christ.

"They all drank the same spiritual drink.. from the same ROCK and that ROCK was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

Being born again - brings us into harmony WITH the Law of God - not in rebellion against it.

in Christ,

Bob

OK, assuming this is true, and that Jesus died to maintain the status quo, how does someone know they are 'born again' ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them' date=' The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

This has to be the most insane interpretation of the Bible from you yet. Jesus said that the Sabbath was given to benefit man, not vice versa. It is for this reason that God does not require us to keep the Sabbath

so... you are reading your own posts right??

Would you like a do-over on that one?

in Christ,

Bob [/quote']

I have to say, I am less concerned when you selectively quote me to change the meaning of what I say, than when you do it to the Bible.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The Sabbath is an old testament concept that fits perfectly with the new testament

That is true.. No wonder then God says in Isaiah 66 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth of Rev 21.

There is no "new and better promise" statement in all of scripture applied to God's 7th day memorial of creation week.