Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Dear friend - As with most any church – you will find a variety of beliefs. I’ve tried to articulate to you when I speak about the church’s beliefs and when I am speaking my personal beliefs. Yes, it can be confusing. I am not sure what context you have the idea that the Holy Spirit comes into our lives with no evidence. We will most certainly experience the fruits of the Spirit. IF not then what use is the Holy Spirit. As far as providing you scripture – you are talking to the wrong person. I don’t mean to insult you – but I don’t believe any scripture that I might provide you would be of any help. You have already provided us with your beliefs regarding the validity of the Sabbath. With the belief that you have articulated – the Sabbath is not compatible. I am just telling you that God is not going to withhold your Salvation just because you are not able to see the validity of the 4th Commandment. Now if you knew God wanted you to keep the 4th Commandment – then you would be on dangerous ground if you were rejecting the Spirit. From what I hear though – that is not the case. The Sabbath as I said has saved my relationship with Jesus. Perhaps as I said – you are stronger and able to have a strong relationship with out it. I pray that is the case. But I also know that you would only mature in your relationship if you honored God on the Sabbath. I AM curious about this (what I perceive to be) hatred of the Sabbath and those who would dare keep it. As the previous poster asked – why do you honor God on Sunday? I don’t condemn you for worshipping God on Sunday – I pray you don’t condemn me for worshipping Him on the Sabbath. At times in my life – I’ve done both. I’ve attended a Sunday church but still kept the Sabbath. But not all are able to do that. Our message is NOT watered down. Truth is Truth. But the reality is that in the Christian walk – some are more mature than others and some are actually lead more slowly and differently than others. You are on the path that the Holy Spirit has for YOU personally. It is NO accident that you are here. Don’t rush the Spirit. But do respond when you hear Him calling. Remember – we are your friends here. We are your Christian brothers and sister. We are not here to condemn you journey and walk with Him. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Dear friend - As with most any church – you will find a variety of beliefs. I’ve tried to articulate to you when I speak about the church’s beliefs and when I am speaking my personal beliefs. Yes, it can be confusing.
Gibs Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Which one is the least in your eyes? Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
cheddar Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 The whole point of this passage is that the law could not save us, because we could not keep it. Paul is not talking about people who refuse to keep the law, he's saying none of us can do it. That is why Jesus came. I agree that we are under grace and are not under the Law as Paul pointed out so many times. So what day did Paul (the expert on grace) keep? the 7th day or Sunday? You should also keep in mind that in Paul's day the Sabbath was not a point of contention like it is today. The Jews kept the sabbath and the early Christians kept it - so it was actually one thing they had in common.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly The whole point of this passage is that the law could not save us, because we could not keep it. Paul is not talking about people who refuse to keep the law, he's saying none of us can do it. That is why Jesus came. I agree that we are under grace and are not under the Law as Paul pointed out so many times. So what day did Paul (the expert on grace) keep? the 7th day or Sunday? You should also keep in mind that in Paul's day the Sabbath was not a point of contention like it is today. The Jews kept the sabbath and the early Christians kept it - so it was actually one thing they had in common. This argument would hold some water if the Sabbath was never mentioned in the NT, although not much, given the influx of non Jews who had never kept the Sabbath, and probably were the majority of the church in some places. however, if this were true, Paul would still have clarified this point in the two verses I quoted, both of which say we don't need to keep the Sabbath. Paul didn't keep any day. The verses I quoted are clear on that. Yet, he also said he acted as one under the law so he could reach those under the law. I don't doubt he preached on the Sabbath and did not go out of the way to NOT keep it, to needlessly offend the Jews he was trying to reach with the Gospel.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Which one is the least in your eyes? Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are all equal. All are equally fulfilled in the NT, and I don't break any of them by living the life given to me by Jesus, who fulfilled them. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to mow my lawn on a Saturday. That is the definition of legalism, what Jesus came to do away with.
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Quote: I just don't understand why anyone would feel they are beholden to keep it in the OT sense, without keeping the whole law. I just don't see how the belief that God cares what day I go to church is compatible with scripture. The problem with our discussion is that you either don't listen or have some preconceived ideas about SDAs that are not reality. So, throwing scripture at the issue is impossible. We are not in disagreement with your straw men that you build up. WE ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God. WE are sinners guilty and deserve death. Jesus came and kept the Law that the Law might not condemn us. That is IF we accept HIS sacrifice on our behalf. We are "beholden" to the Law because Jesus came NOT to destroy the Law but to fulfill the condemnation of the Law. As I stated - you will not lose your Salvation because you sin (And not obeying the 4th Commandment IS a sin) You ONLY lose your salvation because you reject the ONE person who kept ALL of the Law. My testimony is that not honoring God on the Sabbath is putting one and ME on dangerous ground. No you don't lose your salvation. But you lose a valuable part of a relationship with God. Thanks for this discussion brother . May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Fair enough. I came here to listen to people and challenge my pre conceived ideas. It seems that others conform to what I thought the SDA believed, although you don't seem to. I always want to be respectful to anyone I talk to, but my main goal is to understand the SDA platform so I can understand the friend who is involved with them. I am sure it's possible to build straw men by misquoting scripture, but if I've done that, I'm unsure why no-one has stepped forward to explain it to me. In any case, thanks for the discussion, I appreciate it.
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 If you want to fully understand our ACTUAL beliefs - they are listed here: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 "The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)" OK, so that's precisely the belief that I understand, but want to see proof of from the Bible. The verses quoted are all true, but none of them say that Christ's church needs to keep the Sabbath.
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Quote: It seems that others conform to what I thought the SDA believed, although you don't seem to In the words of my favorite movie - The Count of Monte Cristo - "You need to get out more". Honestly - I am pretty mainstream in my beliefs within the church. It is possible to find members both on the Right and the Left of me. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Quote: It seems that others conform to what I thought the SDA believed, although you don't seem to In the words of my favorite movie - The Count of Monte Cristo - "You need to get out more". Honestly - I am pretty mainstream in my beliefs within the church. It is possible to find members both on the Right and the Left of me. I'm not sure how one would define right and left in this instance. Nevertheless, I appreciate your giving me a window in to the variety of views within the SDA. And yes, I wouldn't mind getting out more
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Quote: none of them say that Christ's church needs to keep the Sabbath. I'm not certain - but I get the feeling you are looking for something along the lines of "Keep the Sabbath or you will go to Hell" As I've mentioned to you - the Blood of Jesus saves you. The 4th commandment is just one of the commandments and doesn't condemn you any more than any of the others. The Law condemns ONLY those who are not IN CHRIST. The Law does not condemn those that accept the sacrifice of Christ on their behalf. So keeping the Sabbath does not earn you salvation. But it does blossom and mature your relationship. That I know from my experience. You have chosen not to experience that. And I don't condemn you for your sincere beliefs. You remain a brother in Christ no matter how you interpret scripture if you love God and accept His sacrifice on your behalf. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
cheddar Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Paul didn't keep any day. The verses I quoted are clear on that. Yet, he also said he acted as one under the law so he could reach those under the law. I don't doubt he preached on the Sabbath and did not go out of the way to NOT keep it, to needlessly offend the Jews he was trying to reach with the Gospel. Paul along with the rest of the early church kept the 7th day sabbath. He never kept it the way the Jews did - as a scorecard for who could keep the most rules and regulations. Jesus condemned this form of sabbath keeping. He kept it the way it was originally given by God as a day of rest (i.e. spiritual rest). Paul spoke about that rest in Hebrews chapter 4. To say that Paul or people like yourself don't keep any day is untruthful. You obviously go to church on Sunday even it's only once and awhile.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 I am certainly looking for an explanation of the scriptures that explicitly state we're not to consider keeping the Sabbath as important. I was hoping for that from some of the other people who have responded, as I feel I understand your position on the topic, and we've established that you're not confident to respond to the specific questions I asked.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Paul didn't keep any day. The verses I quoted are clear on that. Yet, he also said he acted as one under the law so he could reach those under the law. I don't doubt he preached on the Sabbath and did not go out of the way to NOT keep it, to needlessly offend the Jews he was trying to reach with the Gospel. Paul along with the rest of the early church kept the 7th day sabbath.
cheddar Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 So, the SDA does not take a legalistic view of the Sabbath ? So you could, for example, go to the movies after church on the Sabbath ? You can do household chores ? Change your oil ? I do and worse things than that -
Members phkrause Posted November 28, 2011 Members Posted November 28, 2011 Quote: I just don't understand why anyone would feel they are beholden to keep it in the OT sense, without keeping the whole law. I just don't see how the belief that God cares what day I go to church is compatible with scripture. The problem with our discussion is that you either don't listen or have some preconceived ideas about SDAs that are not reality. So, throwing scripture at the issue is impossible. We are not in disagreement with your straw men that you build up. WE ALL sin and fall short of the Glory of God. WE are sinners guilty and deserve death. Jesus came and kept the Law that the Law might not condemn us. That is IF we accept HIS sacrifice on our behalf. We are "beholden" to the Law because Jesus came NOT to destroy the Law but to fulfill the condemnation of the Law. As I stated - you will not lose your Salvation because you sin (And not obeying the 4th Commandment IS a sin) You ONLY lose your salvation because you reject the ONE person who kept ALL of the Law. My testimony is that not honoring God on the Sabbath is putting one and ME on dangerous ground. No you don't lose your salvation. But you lose a valuable part of a relationship with God. Thanks for this discussion brother . phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 *grin* OK, well, in that case, tell me what you must do on the sabbath and if there's anything you're constrained from not doing ? Is it any different to me going to church, except that you do it on another day ? My friend said they are only allowed to watch Christian TV and listen to Christian music ( rock music is always satanic, apparently ), and no video games for the kids, no work ( she said she's not allowed to go shopping on a Saturday ) etc. Is it just true that there's more extreme wings of the SDA that does these things ? If so, how common are they ?
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 BibleOnly. I've enjoyed the discussion with you. But, I really am not seeing fruit. You continue to use the word - "constrained" "allowed" "permitted" "forced" The commandment is clear. Remember the Sabbath Day to Keep it HOLY. Relationships with God are based individually. So, how you interpret this commandment is up to you - the individual. The church is not going to and is not "allowed" to tell you how to keep the Sabbath. It is between you and God. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 OK, if you don't want to discuss it, I don't mind if you go on your way. But, others have commented, and I'd like to invite their comments. The difference between 'allowed' and 'I choose to do what I've been told to do' is semantic, and certainly my friend had a list of things she was constrained from doing on the Sabbath. So, that's the spirit in which I am asking, to understand what I've been told.
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 That list was her personal list I suspect and not one that the church handed to her. (Just to help you understand) May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 BibleOnly - The ONLY list of beliefs that the church has is listed in the link of Fundamental Beliefs that I provided for you. The rest that you "hear" is personal beliefs and applications. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 Well, that's not the impression she gave, but, I'm here to ask for answers, so if you're saying that the SDA does not provide any specific guidance as to what people can and can't do on the Saturday, then I guess that's one answer I was looking for.
BibleOnly Posted November 28, 2011 Author Posted November 28, 2011 OK, but, surely a pastor is going to expand on those if asked by a church member ? It seems normal to me that the SDA would publish 'we keep the sabbath' and then explain what that means to people who ask ?
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