Keeping the Sabbath

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Actually, it seems obvious to me that 'sunday keepers' would come to the same conclusion, as they would assume that Paul could not be talking about THEIR Sabbath. I'm not a Sunday Keeper, or a Saturday Keeper, I'm a 'walking in the Spirit every day keeper'. In any case, I don't believe any interpretation of the Bible comes from looking for the most popular opinion

It is true that we are to walk in the Spirit every day, and worship God every day. However, according to Mark 2:27,28, the Sabbath was "made FOR man" (not against). "Not man for the Sabbath".

Think about this for moment. If the Sabbath was to be treated exactly the same as every single other day, then how is the Sabbath made for you? How is it special for you? What is the difference?

What does it mean, what Christ said ?

Mar 2:23 ¶ And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus and His disciples were gathering food and were told they could not, because it was the Sabbath. Jesus didn't say 'the sabbath was made for man, not against man'. He said 'the sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath'. This means, the Sabbath concept is not more important to God than man is. It means the Sabbath was made to be a blessing to us, not that we were made so God had someone who could keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not HAVE to be 'special' to me, in fact, Paul said I am welcome to regard every day as being the same. The Sabbath was a gift from God before Jesus came to give something better, not a law we have to keep lest we offend Him, because the Sabbath is not more important to God than man.

[BibleOnly]

The point is, it was made for "man's rest". God is thinking of our rest here, so that when we do think about God and walking in the Spirit on that day, we are not distracted with any other worldly ventures. We now are able to give him "consecrated time".

[Lysimachus]

What does it mean, what Christ said ?

Mar 2:23 ¶ And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus and His disciples were gathering food and were told they could not, because it was the Sabbath. Jesus didn't say 'the sabbath was made for man, not against man'. He said 'the sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath'. This means, the Sabbath concept is not more important to God than man is. It means the Sabbath was made to be a blessing to us, not that we were made so God had someone who could keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not HAVE to be 'special' to me, in fact, Paul said I am welcome to regard every day as being the same. The Sabbath was a gift from God before Jesus came to give something better, not a law we have to keep lest we offend Him, because the Sabbath is not more important to God than man.

[BibleOnly]

OK, I read it all. I agree with much of it, except this:

Nothing so distinguished the Jews from surrounding nations, and designated them as true worshipers of the Creator, as the institution of the Sabbath.

Nothing so distinguished Israel ( and the Jews later on ) than the power of God in their midst. Not that they took a day off.

The Old Testament scriptures quoted don't seem to make room for doing work because of an 'emergency', but I agree in general that if God wanted us to keep the Sabbath in this way, then He would be more interested in our intentions than the minutae of our actions. However, the core argument on your side is that God does arbitrary things and obscures them, so people cannot find Him. My core argument is not the one that your article argues against. It's that the Bible explicitly states that the Sabbath was a type that lead to real rest being found in Christ on a permanent basis. Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath. What does this mean, if it means that He was not only beholden to keep it, but beholden to keep it in force in the new church age He came to make possible ? What does it mean when Jesus said 'I will give you rest' ? Does He just mean the Sabbath, which they already had ? If not, how does His rest differentiate from the Sabbath which we must also keep, and how do they complement each other ?

In a lot of ways, I wonder if we're coming to the end of this discussion. I now know that you believe that God hid the need to keep the sabbath in the NT, but that you feel if you work hard enough you can find it, and that God requires such scholarly labour as a step to salvation. I expected that I had not thought to show the SDA these verses, I expected you had some way to talk around them, and that you would do that in all sincerity, simply because you come to them with the expectation that whatever the Bible says, it must support Sabbath keeping. I suspect from here on in it will just get more and more convoluted and further on the path of legalism, and further from anything that is likely to edify anyone. Do you agree ?

[Woody]

Anyone who would declare resting on the Sabbath - to be a burden - obviously doesn't know the Sabbath.

[Lysimachus]

See, the point being made is that the reason why Jesus and the Disciples picked corn on the Sabbath was so that they COULD rest and keep the Sabbath Holy.

To be hungry and starve defeats the purpose of the Sabbath. To be a day of "rest". Not to be a day of burdensome regulations, making it impossible to fulfill the true purpose of Sabbath rest.

But the fact that Jesus said "the Sabbath was MADE FOR man", indirectly, and unapologetically confesses that Christ was admitting that the Sabbath was truly made for man -- meaning, it was to be treated differently from all other days.

This is what you must see BibleOnly.

Instead of trying to pick apart every phrase I use BibleOnly, you need to stop and think.

Don't read my points exclusive from the others. You quote, then you respond to sections. But only one section can only be understood in conjunction with another section--therefore, it is not right to quote one section at a time.

[BibleOnly]

Anyone who would declare resting on the Sabbath - to be a burden - obviously doesn't know the Sabbath.

I understand the concept. You do on Saturday what I do on Sunday ( go to church ), and apart from that you do things that I also do on the weekend. The SDA doesn't prohibit any specific behaviours, although the members I know locally are in every way under law to themselves, regardless. The point is that there is a burden being placed that one MUST go to church on a certain day ( or at least, God wants us to, the difference being unclear to me, especially when Sunday worship WILL damn me if I do it after the beast makes me ). The point was simply that Jesus said that the Sabbath was not to be a burden. You obviously think it's wonderful. I don't think you approach the day much different to me, except that you use a different day and you esteem one day above another. According to Paul, I should not judge you for that, but you should also not tell me that God cares if I go to church on Sunday purely as a matter of convenience, or expect that if I believed exactly what the SDA does about God, that God would be mad at me for listening to the same ideas preached on a different day.

Some where along the line someone suggested that if I rest in God every day, I must not have a job. This is a very narrow definition of rest. God brings me rest where ever I am and no matter what I have to do, not just when I am in a church building.

[Lysimachus]

The Bible does teach that God tests us.

Revelation is filled with a test for God's people.

[Lysimachus]

Nobody is saying you MUST go to Church on Sabbath BibleOnly!!

We are saying you MUST rest on the Sabbath---but, you should exert every effort to convocate with God's people on that day--that is, if one truly wants to do what is right from the heart.

[Lysimachus]

The fact that Paul met together with is brethren EVERY Sabbath is proof of this fact--that he made every effort to do so.

[BibleOnly]

See, the point being made is that the reason why Jesus and the Disciples picked corn on the Sabbath was so that they COULD rest and keep the Sabbath Holy.

To be hungry and starve defeats the purpose of the Sabbath. To be a day of "rest". Not to be a day of burdensome regulations, making it impossible to fulfill the true purpose of Sabbath rest.

[BibleOnly]

The Bible does teach that God tests us.

Revelation is filled with a test for God's people.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

What test is there in Revelation that is brought from God to hold people back from salvation ?

[BibleOnly]

The fact that Paul met together with is brethren EVERY Sabbath is proof of this fact--that he made every effort to do so.

I can't find a single bible reference with these words in it. Scripture ?

[BibleOnly]

Nobody is saying you MUST go to Church on Sabbath BibleOnly!!

We are saying you MUST rest on the Sabbath---but, you should exert every effort to convocate with God's people on that day--that is, if one truly wants to do what is right from the heart.

OK, so if I rest on the Sabbath ( and it's the weekend, so of course I do ), then I am doing what you say I need to ? But, everyone does that, surely ? Does that mean that no-one is allowed to have a job that requires Saturday work ? I assume that means you can't go shopping ? Many churches gather for a social event on a Saturday. That means the SDA regards them as keeping the Sabbath ? The more we discuss this, the more convoluted it becomes. So, you meet on a Saturday, but there's no reason for you to. You don't work on a Saturday, but you can, that's up to the individual. But, regardless of not having a meeting, God requires you to spend time with other Christians on that day, above any other day. Is that it ?

[Gibs]

Ac 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

Ac 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Ac 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

Ac 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Ac 18:7 ¶ And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

The same with Jesus,

Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Ac 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

Ac 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Ac 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

Ac 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Ac 18:7 ¶ And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

The same with Jesus,

Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jesus was under the law, the Spirit was not yet given. Yet, it's a huge leap from 'Paul went to the synagogue on the day that people were there, to talk to them about Jesus' to 'The fact that Paul met together with is brethren EVERY Sabbath is proof of this fact--that he made every effort to do so.'

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

But the fact that Jesus said "the Sabbath was MADE FOR man", indirectly, and unapologetically confesses that Christ was admitting that the Sabbath was truly made for man -- meaning, it was to be treated differently from all other days.

No, it does not mean that at all. It means that it was given to benefit man, not that man is constrained to keep in a certain way. That's the opposite of 'man was not made for the Sabbath'.

Are you absolutely sure that you are right on this? If it was given to benefit man, yet you state that you can treat the Sabbath exactly as any other day, then how does this make your ultimate conclusion correct? You are contradicting yourself.

When was the Sabbath made?

It was made at creation week.

When did man exist?

At creation week.

Do you see what is being said here?

Your choice word of "constrain" can be deceptive and subtle if we are not careful. That is now how to look at it. It is to be looked upon as a day of relief.

The Sabbath can only be "made" for man's benefit if it were expected to be treated differently from the other days. If it was man's choice to treat it exactly the same as other days, then it could not be said it was made for man. It would be impossible.

We are constrained to observe the Sabbath no different than we are constrained to not murder and kill, and not to steal, and not to commit adultery.

To not do these things is to experience true freedom. True liberty. Imagine what kind of freedom it would be if your house was being broken in right now by a burglar, or if someone was out to kill you, or rape your wife.

• Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

  7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

  7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work LAWLESSNESS.

  [Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that DO his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

  22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

While the actual keeping of the commandments does not save you, and only the blood of Christ, only doers of the law will be justified.

• James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

  1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

  1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

  1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

  Romans 2:13 - (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Notice that the actual "doing" does not justify you. You cannot be saved by your own works. But, only DOERS will be justified. Did you catch that?

Big difference!

This is why when Paul says:

• Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

  3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Is Paul contradicting himself?

Nope. The law and the works of the law does not justify you. But only those who are DOERS will be justified. It is not the law that justifies you. It is God that justifies you, and we are saved by Grace through Faith alone, and not the works of the law. But all those who have been saved by Grace through Faith alone will OBEY the law because they love God.

If they do not exert every God-given effort to obey all Ten Commandments, then this only proves that they have not been justified, because if they were truly justified and saved, they would be proving it in their obedience to God.

Out of ALL 10 commandments, the fourth one begins with the word "REMEMBER".

Why is that?

Because He knew that one day man would forget.

And guess what?

Out of ALL the 10 commandments, Christians have "forgotten" (opposite of remember) the 4th one over every other one.

This is prophetic.

This is significant.

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

Are you absolutely sure that you are right on this? If it was given to benefit man, yet you state that you can treat the Sabbath exactly as any other day, then how does this make your ultimate conclusion correct? You are contradicting yourself.

No, you are not hearing me. Which is why I suggested this had run it's course. Let me try again.

It was given to benefit man. It was given as part of a pattern, and as part of the OT law which was a shadow of things to come. I don't need to rest in God one day a week, when I rest in Him every day. I've asked you questions about this, you've not answered. I can't 'double rest'. I rest, in Him, every day. And this is the culmination of the pattern given by the Sabbath in the OT. Hebrews explains this, as I have shown.

The Sabbath is DIFFERENT to the other commandments. Don't kill makes more sense that 'remember not to kill'. But, the Sabbath is something you remember and observe once a week, as opposed to something you make you avoid doing, every day. That is why the word 'remember' is used, the rest is just a significance you place on it because of your misinterpretation of the nature of the Sabbath in the New Testament age.

Of course the law alone does not save, nor can it. Yet you want to keep the law, but only part of it. The Bible says you can't do that, you have to keep it all. Are you circumcised ?

Nor can faith save without works. James makes this clear. But, that does not mean Jesus came so we could require faith AND the works of the law. That's the opposite of what Paul writes on the topic.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Are you absolutely sure that you are right on this? If it was given to benefit man, yet you state that you can treat the Sabbath exactly as any other day, then how does this make your ultimate conclusion correct? You are contradicting yourself.

No, you are not hearing me. Which is why I suggested this had run it's course. Let me try again.

It was given to benefit man. It was given as part of a pattern, and as part of the OT law which was a shadow of things to come. I don't need to rest in God one day a week, when I rest in Him every day. I've asked you questions about this, you've not answered. I can't 'double rest'. I rest, in Him, every day. And this is the culmination of the pattern given by the Sabbath in the OT. Hebrews explains this, as I have shown.

The Sabbath is DIFFERENT to the other commandments. Don't kill makes more sense that 'remember not to kill'. But, the Sabbath is something you remember and observe once a week, as opposed to something you make you avoid doing, every day. That is why the word 'remember' is used, the rest is just a significance you place on it because of your misinterpretation of the nature of the Sabbath in the New Testament age.

Of course the law alone does not save, nor can it. Yet you want to keep the law, but only part of it. The Bible says you can't do that, you have to keep it all. Are you circumcised ?

Nor can faith save without works. James makes this clear. But, that does not mean Jesus came so we could require faith AND the works of the law. That's the opposite of what Paul writes on the topic.

We rest in God every day spiritually, but we rest in God ONCE a week both spiritually and physically. Our physical rest on Sabbath is our outward celebration once a week of our daily rest in Christ. It is the outward "sign", our outward "acknowledgement" that we belong to Him.

It distinguishes us from the rest of the world, that we are worshipers of the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

It is the SIGN of Creation. It is the FLAG of the Christian.

It is the opposite of the Beast's Mark--Sunday Sacredness.

[BibleOnly]

We rest in God every day spiritually, but we rest in God ONCE a week both spiritually and physically. Our physical rest on Sabbath is our outward celebration once a week of our daily rest in Christ. It is the outward "sign", our outward "acknowledgement" that we belong to Him.

It distinguishes us from the rest of the world, that we are worshipers of the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

It is the SIGN of Creation. It is the FLAG of the Christian.

It is the opposite of the Beast's Mark--Sunday worship.

So, we are REQUIRED to rest physically, yet, if we work or not is up to us and how we read it. We don't have to go to church on Saturday, but if we go to church on Sunday instead, that is the mark of the beast. The sign of a Christian, is that they don't work on Saturday. Presumably this is the sign that was visible in Acts 8 to show when people didn't have the Spirit, and when they did ?

Surely you can see why I am confused ? As far as I can see, you're saying that you can do what you want, so long as you're in the SDA and regard the Sabbath, in whatever way suits you, to be Saturday.

[Lysimachus]

Never said going to Church on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast. Worshiping on Sunday is not the Mark of the Beast.

[Lysimachus]

The Mark of the Beast is when the Man of Sin not only sanctifies and makes sacred a day which God has not sanctified, but enforces this day through legislation.

Nobody has the mark of the beast.

People only receive the mark of the beast after Sunday Sacredness has been enforced by law, and only after humanity complies with this law in direct violation to heaven's Sabbath 4th commandment.

Satan wanted to counterfeit God and wanted to be "first" place. So he chose the first day of the week, to be "first" and attack God's 7th day.

God has a day--a sign of His creative power and redemptive glory.

Satan has a day--his sign of authority to change God's law.

Remember, a Sign, a Mark, and a Seal are synonymous throughout scripture.

[Gibs]

I would seriously consider the following verse about any one of the 10 commandments.

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I can't see the point of any further discussion.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

The Mark of the Beast is when the Man of Sin not only sanctifies and makes sacred a day which God has not sanctified, but enforces this day through legislation.

Nobody has the mark of the beast.

God has a day--a sign of His creative power and redemptive glory.

Satan has a day--his sign of authority to change God's law.

Remember, a Sign, a Mark, and a Seal are synonymous throughout scripture.

So God's sign is that people rest on Saturday ? I tried to draw you on this before - you're saying the only sign that God is with someone is what they do on Saturdays ?

And, so we're clear, one small portion of mankind will be subject to a test, and if they do the things that most religious people did before, they alone will be condemned for it ?

[BibleOnly]

I would seriously consider the following verse about any one of the 10 commandments.

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I can't see the point of any further discussion.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Well OK, if you don't see the point, I respect your decision not to reply. But, you did, and, I've replied to this over and over.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Did Jesus fulfil the law, or not ? If not, what did He do ? If so, how does that change things ?