The future

[John317]

...All we know for sure is that Paul said that some people regard certain days and others regard every day the same, and that both are fine to do.

What is Romans 14 talking about?

Notice that the first verse shows that Paul is talking about "doubtful things."

There's nothing "doubtful" about the Ten Commandments. Paul is very clear that Christians should keep the law of God. So Paul is not telling people that they can obey the commandments of God if they want to and disobey them if they have a mind to do their own thing.

The entire discussion has to do with things on which the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus don't give instruction.

Notice that Paul ends this discussion (verses 10-13) by pointing out that we ought not to judge "one another."

Yet 1 Cor.5: 12, 13 shows that Paul tells the church that we are to judge other Christians when it comes to right and wrong behavior. For instance, if a person violates God's law in regard to fornication and adultery, Paul says clearly that we have an obligation to Christ to judge those things as wrong and cleanse of people who are openly violating God's commandments.

Remember Paul's instructions:

1 Cor. 7:19

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Here Paul makes a plain distinction between the ceremonial laws dealing with circumcision and the ceremonial sabbaths, and the commandments of God, i.e., the law of God which He wrote with His own finger on tables of stone.

Therefore, it is clear that Paul is not telling people that whether they obey the commandments of God or not depends on what they feel like doing.

So Romans 14: 6 is not discussing the weekly Sabbath which is a part of the law of God. Rather, the discussion is dealing with various ceremonial sabbaths & festivals which the Jews kept but which are not a part of the New Covenant.

[John317]

Are you saying that Paul was contradicting the will of God ?

Absolutely not. What we're saying is that you misunderstand what Paul is saying as well as the will of God.

God's will is His law.

Do you believe this?

It is what the Bible clearly teaches.

[Windsor]

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

2nd Peter 3:15-17

[John317]

Yes, they went to preach on the Sabbath. Why NOT go on the day that people were meeting to discuss God ? None of these attempts at extrapolation from logic can change scripture.

Acts 13:42-44

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. [43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

[44] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

NOTE: Antioch was a Gentile city. It says almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God on the Sabbath.

Why didn't they come together the very next day, Sunday? Why did they wait a whole week before coming together to hear the word of God preached?

Notice that the Gentile Christians were worshipping in the synagogue with the Jews. The text calls these Gentile Christians "religious proselytes" and it says that Paul told them to "continue in the grace of God."

If Paul was urging Gentiles to stop keeping the Sabbath, this would have been a perfect time for it to be mentioned, but instead Paul evidently told them to wait until the next Sabbath to hear the gospel preached. When the next Sabbath came, almost the entire city of the Gentiles came to worship.

This happened about 25 years after Christ's ascension.

[BibleOnly]

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

2nd Peter 3:15-17

Yes, I've discovered just how hard these letters can be to understand for some. However, it's worth remembering that Paul was educated and most people were not. In our age, people are more educated and have less excuse for wrestling with the concepts Paul writes about.

[M. T. Cross]

I was looking through this thread.

I see everyone of you saying how much you love your God. How you want to walk with him for all enernity.

Yet there 179 posts arguing over the details, trying to prove the other guy wrong. I really don't get it. If you all get to heaven are you gonna spend eternity arguing over which one of you was right?

[BibleOnly]

It's really not that complex. If I am right, then they have not obeyed God. So, they are fighting for their lives, or at least, their ideas. That's why it gets heated, because the Bible says that they have not yet obeyed Jesus, and in fact, 1 Cor 12 specifically says that these people cannot call Jesus, Lord. So, it gets hard when people can't see past what they already believe, and read plain English, because it goes against what they believe.

[ClubV12]

The Great Controversy between truth and error is indeed a battle Emptycross. It is not all teddy bears, flowers, love and rainbows. There was war in heaven, hand to hand combat. People have been martyred and tortured for their faith. There is indeed a heaven to win and a hell to shun, a very real heaven and a very real hell to come. YOUR testimony, for or against the Lord has an impact on someone's decision, it may be a small piece, but it's a piece. We are either working for the devil or for God, there is no middle ground, no man can sit on the sidelines, we WILL be held accountable for our actions for or against the throne of God.

[M. T. Cross]

The Great Controversy between truth and error is indeed a battle Emptycross. It is not all teddy bears, flowers, love and rainbows. There was war in heaven, hand to hand combat. People have been martyred and tortured for their faith. There is indeed a heaven to win and a hell to shun, a very real heaven and a very real hell to come. YOUR testimony, for or against the Lord has an impact on someone's decision, it may be a small piece, but it's a piece. We are either working for the devil or for God, there is no middle ground, no man can sit on the sidelines, we WILL be held accountable for our actions for or against the throne of God.

I don't recall saying it should be all those nice things. Ya'll remind me of people that will never win the war, because you are all to busy fighting with your allies over what gun to use, who should be flanking and who should be leading.

If this evil really exists ( and I do believe evil does exist ) its gotta be sitting back laughing and enjoying a margarita in the shade watching yuo all tear each other down.

[BibleOnly]

Which is precisely why this is a waste of time, and I've been trying to withdraw myself from it. I have nothing to prove to anyone here, and I'd rather talk to people interested in what I have to say, than fight on the internet.

[John317]

... it gets hard when people can't see past what they already believe, and read plain English, because it goes against what they believe.

Both sides in a discussion of this kind think they would have good cause to say what you've just said here.

But what specific "plain English" do you refer to?

Please quote it here. Then tell us in your own words what it is saying.

[ClubV12]

Well I have to admit, Emptycross, I do get a kick out of seeing BibleOnly and Dr. Rich in a good debate. It's like a watching a train wreck, your horrified and intrigued at the same time. It's like the blind leading the blind and there both bouncing off light posts as they walk down the side walk. It's like two prisoners handcuffed together and running in opposite directtions. It's like the kettle calling the skillet black. It's like.... OK, enough of that... :)

[BibleOnly]

1 Cor 14:2 says that when someone speaks in tongues, they speak only to God and no man understands them. Paul later uses the same Greek word to describe the gift of tongues he uses, that the church should use, and that should not be forbidden in the church. There is no suggestion anywhere that there's two types of tongues, or that there's anything wrong with the gift being used in Corinth, or that man sometimes understands tongues. Instead, it says they need to be interpreted, also under inspiration of God.

[BibleOnly]

Well I have to admit, Emptycross, I do get a kick out of seeing BibleOnly and Dr. Rich in a good debate. It's like a watching a train wreck, your horrified and intrigued at the same time. It's like the blind leading the blind and there both bouncing off light posts as they walk down the side walk. It's like two prisoners handcuffed together and running in opposite directtions. It's like the kettle calling the skillet black. It's like.... OK, enough of that...

ROTFL !!! Yeah, he kind of snuck up on me.

[M. T. Cross]

Well I have to admit, Emptycross, I do get a kick out of seeing BibleOnly and Dr. Rich in a good debate. It's like a watching a train wreck, your horrified and intrigued at the same time. It's like the blind leading the blind and there both bouncing off light posts as they walk down the side walk. It's like two prisoners handcuffed together and running in opposite directtions. It's like the kettle calling the skillet black. It's like.... OK, enough of that...

Well I guess that is finding beauty in a bit of a bizarre twisted sorta way

[Q.E.D.]

I was looking through this thread.

I see everyone of you saying how much you love your God. How you want to walk with him for all enernity.

Yet there 179 posts arguing over the details, trying to prove the other guy wrong. I really don't get it. If you all get to heaven are you gonna spend eternity arguing over which one of you was right?

With that type of logic the protestant reformation would never have happened.

"Can't we all get along. . ." Rodney King during the Los Angeles riots May 1, 1992.

Q.E.D.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I was looking through this thread.

I see everyone of you saying how much you love your God. How you want to walk with him for all enernity.

Yet there 179 posts arguing over the details, trying to prove the other guy wrong. I really don't get it. If you all get to heaven are you gonna spend eternity arguing over which one of you was right?

"Can't we all get along. . ." Rodney King during the Los Angeles riots May 1, 1992.

Q.E.D.

Or, Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend. I have always thought that it's a crime, so I will ask you once again...Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong.While you see it your way,you can get it wrong and still you think that it's all right.We can work it out.

[BibleOnly]

I suspect that quoting the Beatles will show your age. Or at least, your opinion on rock music....

I show my age if I quote Bon Jovi.

[doug yowell]

I suspect that quoting the Beatles will show your age. Or at least, your opinion on rock music....

I show my age if I quote Bon Jovi.

Who's Bon Jovi? Any relation to Bon Appetit?

[M. T. Cross]

I suspect that quoting the Beatles will show your age. Or at least, your opinion on rock music....

I show my age if I quote Bon Jovi.

Wow glad you pointed out that was the Beatles. I thought it was his statement. I am way to young to know anything about the bug band. Other than I don't like em much. Though they were groundbreaking for their time.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I suspect that quoting the Beatles will show your age. Or at least, your opinion on rock music....

I show my age if I quote Bon Jovi.

Wow glad you pointed out that was the Beatles. I thought it was his statement. I am way to young to know anything about the bug band. Other than I don't like em much. Though they were groundbreaking for their time.

How do you guys know that I'm not old enough to have originated the statement and they stole it from me?

[M. T. Cross]

I suspect that quoting the Beatles will show your age. Or at least, your opinion on rock music....

I show my age if I quote Bon Jovi.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I suspect that quoting the Beatles will show your age. Or at least, your opinion on rock music....

I show my age if I quote Bon Jovi.

Who's Bon Jovi? Any relation to Bon Appetit?

Really ? An 80s rock band.

[M. T. Cross]

Now a country band. Heartbreaking - it really is.

[BibleOnly]

They did do that Lost Highway album, but the songs on the recent best of were still decent and they were good live, I was 2nd row on the last night of 'The Circle' tour.