The future

[John317]

...The real question is, whatever day you go to church, have you received the Spirit since you believed, and how did you know ?

The Bible teaches that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they accept Christ as their Savior and Lord.

I myself know I have received the Holy Spirit because of the work He's done in my life.

1 John 2:3

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:5

but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:2

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1 John 5:3-5

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. [4] For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. [5] Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10-13

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. [11] And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

[13] I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:16-17

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [17] and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

...The real question is, whatever day you go to church, have you received the Spirit since you believed, and how did you know ?

The Bible teaches that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they accept Christ as their Savior and Lord.

Acts 8 records baptised believers who did not have the Spirit. In Acts 19 Paul asks 'have you recieved the holy ghost since you believed'. Therefore, you are mistaken.

I don't disagree with any of hte verses you quoted, but none of them tell us how we know someone has the Holy Spirit, none of them explain a means of telling that works in context of Acts 8. They all talk about important things, but none of them talk about the manifestation of the Spirit

[John317]

The Bible teaches that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they accept Christ as their Savior and Lord.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Acts 8 records baptised believers who did not have the Spirit. In Acts 19 Paul asks 'have you recieved the holy ghost since you believed'. Therefore, you are mistaken.

I don't find anything like that in Acts 8.

Acts 19: 3 talks about people who were baptized into John the Baptist's baptism. They did not even know the Holy Spirit existed (Acts 19: 2), and they hadn't been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19: 4,5).

Therefore Acts 19 is not describing believers who are baptised into Christ.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I don't disagree with any of hte verses you quoted, but none of them tell us how we know someone has the Holy Spirit, none of them explain a means of telling that works in context of Acts 8.

Acts 19: 1-7.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

They all talk about important things, but none of them talk about the manifestation of the Spirit

Here are some manifestations in people's lives of the Spirit's work:

1 John 2:3

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:5

but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:2

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

The fruit of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-26

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

[25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [26] Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

See also Romans 8: 1-11.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Bible teaches that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they accept Christ as their Savior and Lord.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Acts 8 records baptised believers who did not have the Spirit. In Acts 19 Paul asks 'have you recieved the holy ghost since you believed'. Therefore, you are mistaken.

I don't find anything like that in Acts 8.

[BobRyan]

"You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God. "

You appear to think that this is not a personal attack, or an unfair expression of the views I've expressed.

"Is the weekly Sabbath a part of the new covenant? "

In the same way that circumcision is. It's not done away with, but the shadow has been replaced by the fullness of what God intended.

There is no "Sabbath has been replaced" in the Bible. INSTEAD of that - there is "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" and there is "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL mankind come before Me to Worship".

Each time one of your traditions does not hold up to close comparison to the Bible and the Bible only - you claim it is a personal attack.

Why go there?

Under the New Covenant the Law of God - including the Sabbath that ALL MANKIND is to keep for all of eternity in the "New Heavens and New Earth" Is 66 of Rev 21:1-3 - is written on the tablets of the human heart.

Jesus said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" and waited ...

Oh that people would choose not to close their hearts and minds to the commandments of God - for as Paul said "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 where he differentiates between ceremonial law and moral law.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

"Each time one of your traditions does not hold up to close comparison to the Bible and the Bible only - you claim it is a personal attack."

Well, you said:

"You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God. "

I never said that. It's an unfair characterisation of something I've never once claimed.

"Under the New Covenant the Law of God - including the Sabbath that ALL MANKIND is to keep for all of eternity in the "New Heavens and New Earth" Is 66 of Rev 21:1-3 - is written on the tablets of the human heart."

Yes, correct. The Sabbath is now not one day of the week, but rest every day. Written on my heart.

Jhn 13:34 A new 2537 commandment1785 I give 1325 unto you 5213, That 2443 ye love 25 one another 240; as 2531 I have loved 25 you 5209, that 2443 ye 5210 also 2532 love 25 one another 240.

The same greek word here. Why does this 'new commandment' not matter for anything to you ? What's the point of a 'new commandment' if you just add it to the pile ? If all we needed was an 11th commandment, why were there not 11 to start with ?

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The ultimate myopia is the view that the word 'commandment' can't mean anything that Jesus said for us to do, or anything bar what was given on Sinai. I don't believe anyone has bothered to explain this to me:

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

I honestly feel bad for you. You've been socialised to regard something as so important, when the bible contradicts you, and all you can do is pretend not to see when I quote these verses to you.

[BobRyan]

"Each time one of your traditions does not hold up to close comparison to the Bible and the Bible only - you claim it is a personal attack."

Well, you said:

"You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God. "

I never said that. It's an unfair characterisation of something I've never once claimed.

[BibleOnly]

Hi Bob. Your post is ridiculous and I'm not responding to it. Sorry. You try to play a zero sum game of 'if one verse in the old testament applies in the same sense today, then they all do'. You ignore the scriptures I quote, then tell me that "Sooner or later you will need to actually exegete the texts that conflict with your traditions rather than spin doctoring." Unlike others here who, for example, discussed tounges with me and never once attempted to explain how Acts 8 blows all their theories out of the water and provided comic book interpretations of 1 Cor 14 that fly in the face of basic English comprehension, I am always careful to explain every scripture that is thrown my way, because unlike you, I have a view that takes in to account the whole Bible and not just one chapter of the Old Testament.

Rom 14:1 ¶ Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Gal 4:1 ¶ Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all.

Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.

Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, [but] not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

Gal 4:18 But [it is] good to be zealously affected always in [a] good [thing], and not only when I am present with you.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Gal 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

The last passage is the only one I've been given any explanation of, and the explanation was that God deliberately hid what He meant in the Bible so only Greek scholars can find salvation. I would like to know what the first two passages mean, and why in the last passage, Paul was deliberately vague so only super smart people can decode what he meant and the rest will be condemned by a basic and logical understanding of his words. Compare to 1 Cor 12-14 where he spends 3 chapters of the Bible carefully explaining how tongues are to be used in the church ( although I accept that people still can't understand him, but Paul still make the effort to be clear ), to see how Paul never writes things that are off the cuff and open to misinterpretation.

If you refuse to explain how these verses fit in to your views and continue your diatribes in the face of scripture, I'm inclined to just stop replying to you, because you're not talking to me, you're building straw men as evidence to yourself of your own righteousness.

[phkrause]

Sure looks like a response to me!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Yep

[ClubV12]

Confirmed, that IS a response!

Now here's the thing BibleOnly, "Sooner or later you will need to actually exegete the texts". May God bless you in your efforts as you search earnestly for the truth, keep digging, you will find it.

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure why those responding to me are allowed to ignore the Bible when I quote it, or why you missed where I responded to the verses in question.

[ClubV12]

It's not ignoring the bible BibleOnly, it's a difference of opinion on the interpretation of the texts. I don't accept your interpretations in many many cases, adding text after text to explain your position often just leads to more confusion.

When I seek to interpret any given difficult text, I, like many others, look for the overall context of the book in which the text is written. I look for other texts that say essentially the same thing or expound on the primary text. I counsel with the brethren to get an idea of their take on it. I consult various commentairies. I see what my favorite author, Ellen White, has to say. Sometimes you see that a 100, more or less, years ago people had an entirely different interpretation. Some texts in prophecy remain unfulfilled and it is impossible to know "for sure" what they mean (last verses of Daniel 11 come to mind).

On some verses I am flexible, on others I am more firm, some I am absolutely immovable on, they are foundational points of doctrine, they won't change.

On the issue of Israel being spiritual or literal in our day, I look to Daniel for insight. Specifically concerning his 2,300 year prophecy, which sheds a lot of light on the issue. Daniel is tied to Revelation, so you have to go there as well. In the end, you CANNOT find "a" verse or even "several" upon which to make your case. It's an enormously complex issue worthy of very careful study.

[BibleOnly]

"It's not ignoring the bible BibleOnly, it's a difference of opinion on the interpretation of the texts. I don't accept your interpretations in many many cases, adding text after text to explain your position often just leads to more confusion."

I generally ask a question from one scripture only, although I do sometimes point out where other scriptures back me up. The point is, I am sure you 'disagree with my opinion', I just don't understand how everyone disagrees, but no-one has an opinion. I am told I am trying to hide from the Bible, but I am not the one refusing to explain verses that are claimed to contradict my views.

"I look for other texts that say essentially the same thing or expound on the primary text."

I agree, but when I do it, it's " adding text after text to explain your position (which) often just leads to more confusion." ?

" In the end, you CANNOT find "a" verse or even "several" upon which to make your case. It's an enormously complex issue worthy of very careful study."

I'm sorry, but I have. How about the parable of the virgins ? The virgins are the church, so who is the bridgegroom marrying ?

[ClubV12]

The Bridegroom is marrying ME! And everyone that chooses to follow Him. We could call this group, the "Church", the body of believers would also fit nicely.

I like to take Christs metaphors personally whenever I can, what is in the story that speaks to me in a personal way? To keep my lamp trimmed and burning I must not grow weary of following Him. I must not be lulled into sleep thinking my Lord has delayed His coming. I know not the day or the hour of His actual return, but more important, I know not the day or the hour that my personal soul may be required of me. When my personal probation time limit is up, will I be found wanting and without oil in my lamp?

[BibleOnly]

"When my personal probation time limit is up, will I be found wanting and without oil in my lamp?"

Two questions. As you're the virgin, who is the bride ? How do you know if there's oil in your lamp ? God does not give the Spirit by measure, so you can't say you have anything other than no Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit entirely. So how do you know which it is ?

[Windsor]

The Ten Commandments are not a type nor an antitype. You could no more change one of the Ten Commandments than you could change God. It was written with God's own finger. The Decalogue was never arbitrary. God wasn't thinking up the top 10 ways to take away fun from His creatures. There could never be a Heaven, no matter who was in charge of it, in which murder was not wrong or did not bring unhappiness to those present. Yet you insist on either taking out or changing the 4th commandment because certainly that one was arbitrary, just a way to take away fun from human beings while breaking the other 9 was truly bad, right?

[BibleOnly]

No, Windsor, this is the usual empty SDA rhetoric. I don't want to take anything away. But, you can not kill your neighbour, I'll choose love him (you) as myself. You can observe the Saturday, but I entered fully in to permanent Sabbath rest when I became a Christian. You can keep the law, but no man can be saved by it. I'll walk in the Spirit and inherit eternity.

[Windsor]

You have never kept any Sabbath day or else you would know there is nothing esoteric like your statement about permanent Sabbath rest, about it. When Jesus said to pray that your flight not be on Sabbath, do you think He really meant to pray that your to pray that your flight never come since every day would be Sabbath from then on?

[Q.E.D.]

You can observe the Saturday, but I entered fully in to permanent Sabbath rest when I became a Christian.

[Q.E.D.]

How do you know if there's oil in your lamp?

[BibleOnly]

You have never kept any Sabbath day or else you would know there is nothing esoteric like your statement about permanent Sabbath rest, about it. When Jesus said to pray that your flight not be on Sabbath, do you think He really meant to pray that your to pray that your flight never come since every day would be Sabbath from then on?

He was talking to people who lived in a society that kept the Sabbath, this verse has been fulfilled.

There's nothing esoteric about believing what Jesus said, or what Paul wrote in the Bible.

[BibleOnly]

Beats me. . .You're writing the story. It sure ain't babbling tongues nonsense!

"A lie spreads like oil on water. . ."

Q.E.D.

Here's what's interesting. Your statement seeks to define the gospel, to tell God how He can do things. I did the same. The two years I spent believing the 'prayer of salvation, no evidence, believe and be saved' Gospel, I was specifically trying to find salvation without tongues, too. I couldn't find it, no matter how hard I tried. I kind of feel sorry for people who can find themselves comfortable in a religion without the Holy Spirit. I am fortunate that I couldn't, I needed the real thing.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

You can observe the Saturday, but I entered fully in to permanent Sabbath rest when I became a Christian.

And please provide Book, Chapter and Verse where it states that "when one becomes a Christian they enter into permanent Sabbath rest."

[Dr. Rich]

Isn't simply amazing how people can argue anything and have their argument supported by the bible? Why? The truth is now known that not everthing found in the bible is the truth. Those found in Rev. 12:17 will ONLY be those who keep all of the ten commandments AND hold fast to ONLY the words (testimony) of Jesus Christ. That's a fact that can't be disputed by the words of Jesus.