The future

[ClubV12]

Even a brief look at the history of the USA, not to mention the world, shows that civil unrest can happen overnight. What was once unthinkable suddenly becomes reality.

WW1, stock market crash of the '20's, Great Depression, WWII, Twin Towers and the war's and home front trouble it spawned. Applying Daniel 11:40-45 as Islam making a major push against the Christian powers and the resultant combination of economic collapse and world wide chaos leading to WWIII, it could happen. Overnight.

National Sunday laws WERE being considered in Congress in the late 1800's. That will happen again as the current "back to God" movement continues to grow. All it needs is a trigger point, which Islam is capable of, without warning, at any time, right now. It will have less to do with "religion" and more to do with "allegiance" for the vast majority of people.

Only those true followers of Christ will see the true connection to regligion and worship. For the rest, it will simply be a reasonable and logical "law" that we need considering the current catastrophies the world will be engulfed in. It will be a "jihad" on BOTH sides, whether you go to church or not.

[BibleOnly]

Cain and Abel both worshiped God, one did it according to God's way the other his own. It is a false worship, one the outside they appear to worship God but on the inside is something else. They appear to worship God but in reality will lead away from God. If you read Rev 13 you will see the commandments they break.

Revelation 13:4

(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5

(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This is a small sample, you can also see that this power takes the place of Christ.

Revelation 13:2-3

(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:5

(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Christ received His power from the Father and died and was resurrected. Also Christ's ministry was 3.5 years while this beast is for 3.5 prophetic years. They do this to get worship to lead people away from God. Worship is mentioned 8 times in Rev 13 & i4. Do you think it is a coincidence that it is mentioned 8 times?

The big question I guess is, do you think this is all talking about future events ?

[BibleOnly]

Even a brief look at the history of the USA, not to mention the world, shows that civil unrest can happen overnight. What was once unthinkable suddenly becomes reality.

WW1, stock market crash of the '20's, Great Depression, WWII, Twin Towers and the war's and home front trouble it spawned. Applying Daniel 11:40-45 as Islam making a major push against the Christian powers and the resultant combination of economic collapse and world wide chaos leading to WWIII, it could happen. Overnight.

National Sunday laws WERE being considered in Congress in the late 1800's. That will happen again as the current "back to God" movement continues to grow. All it needs is a trigger point, which Islam is capable of, without warning, at any time, right now. It will have less to do with "religion" and more to do with "allegiance" for the vast majority of people.

Only those true followers of Christ will see the true connection to regligion and worship. For the rest, it will simply be a reasonable and logical "law" that we need considering the current catastrophies the world will be engulfed in. It will be a "jihad" on BOTH sides, whether you go to church or not.

Yes, I am sure that they were considered in the 1800s, and at that point, this idea seemed valid to the SDA. But, that will never happen again. There's no growing 'back to God' movement in the US. Sure, there's a Bible belt, but there's regions where telling people you are a Christian means people think you are simple. I've visited 20+ states in the US, and I've experienced these things.

In any case, Islam is just fighting back, it's not trying to attack the US because they 'hate your freedom'. The scope of that war is easily controlled and is unlikely to turn in to traditional warfare. And while there have been times of unrest, for example the anarchists of the late 1800s and early 1900s never had much support and failed to alter the fabric of society. Sure, 9/11 gave an excuse for some civil liberties to be curtailed, but, any sort of overarching government that controls when people can go to church would be opposed by the right, who hates the government telling them to do anything, and by the left, who largely doesn't believe in God. A Sunday law makes no sense to the society we are in, would be supported by no-one, and makes no sense as a move for the government to take for any defensible or logical reason. It is simply something society 100 years ago considered, which the SDA has talked about ever since, but no-one has any stake or interest in making it happen.

[Woody]

Quote:

if people who go to church on a Sunday have the mark of the beast

This is not one of our beliefs.

Click on this link to discover our beliefs:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

if people who go to church on a Sunday have the mark of the beast

This is not one of our beliefs.

Click on this link to discover our beliefs:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

I've been told I can go on a Sunday now, although I'd be better off going on a Saturday, but that in the last days, everyone, Buddhists, atheists, you name it, will be forced to worship God on Sundays, and if I still go on Sundays when that happens, that will be the mark of the beast. At least, that's how I understood it.

[John317]

You seem to be saying that worshipping the beast means to worship God on the wrong day. Aren't you ?

Worshipping the beast will eventually have to do with obeying man's law instead of God's laws. Once the issues are made clear and people still obey the laws that require disobedience to God, they will then receive the mark of the beast.

No one has received the mark of the beast yet.

The main issue at the end, just like in the beginning, will be obedience to God's commands.

In Eden, God commanded the humans to reserve one tree for God. All the other trees were theirs. But He told them of one tree that belonged only to God. They chose to disobey and eat of that one tree.

At the end, people must decide whether to obey God's command to reserve one day for God. All the other days belong to humanity, but one day belongs only to God.

The question will be, will people obey & worship God, or will they obey and worship man?

[BibleOnly]

[quote name='BibleOnlyYou seem to be saying that worshipping the beast means to worship God on the wrong day. Aren't you ?

Worshipping the beast will eventually have to do with obeying man's law instead of God's laws. Once the issues are made clear and people still obey the laws that require disobedience to God' date=' they will then receive the mark of the beast.

No one has received the mark of the beast yet. [/quote']

It is then literally a mark ? You get marked on your head and hand, and people check for that mark and won't let you buy food, work, etc without it ?

[John317]

It is then literally a mark ? You get marked on your head and hand, and people check for that mark and won't let you buy food, work, etc without it ?

There may be a literal mark involved, but the main issue in the Bible is spiritual.

People could be forced to receive a tatoo or a mark, but that is not what the Bible is talking about.

The seal of God is spiritual. So is the name of God that the saved have on their foreheads in Rev. 22.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

It is then literally a mark ? You get marked on your head and hand, and people check for that mark and won't let you buy food, work, etc without it ?

There may be a literal mark involved, but the main issue in the Bible is spiritual.

People could be forced to receive a tatoo or a mark, but that is not what the Bible is talking about.

The seal of God is spiritual. So is the name of God that the saved have on their foreheads in Rev. 22.

OK, if the mark is not literal, how will they know and enforce not letting people work or eat ?

[John317]

OK, if the mark is not literal, how will they know and enforce not letting people work or eat ?

Does the government need a "mark" on someone's skin in order to know whether people are obeying a particular law?

The government will have plenty of informers, for one thing. It will also have all the names of people who claim to be Sabbath-keepers. They won't be hard to keep track of and observe.

Remember that true Sabbath-keepers will not be trying to hide the fact that they keep the Sabbath of the Lord their God.

[Woody]

Quote:

I've been told I can go on a Sunday now, although I'd be better off going on a Saturday, but that in the last days, everyone, Buddhists, atheists, you name it, will be forced to worship God on Sundays, and if I still go on Sundays when that happens, that will be the mark of the beast. At least, that's how I understood it.

You continue to try to stir up controversy over things that are simply not the belief of our church. We had this discussion previously. There are two things involved. One is the beliefs of the church. And the other are things that some members might espouse. We could go on for eternity discussing things that some individual might believe or not believe.

[John317]

OK, if the mark is not literal, how will they know and enforce not letting people work or eat ?

There's also the fact that conditions will be much different than they are now. The Sunday laws that we speak of will be brought about because of extreme conditions on earth. We are living in relatively peaceful, prosperous, stable times compared to how it will be just before Christ returns.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, if the mark is not literal, how will they know and enforce not letting people work or eat ?

Does the government need a "mark" on someone's skin in order to know whether people are obeying a particular law?

The government will have plenty of informers, for one thing. It will also have all the names of people who claim to be Sabbath-keepers. They won't be hard to keep track of and observe.

Remember that true Sabbath-keepers will not be trying to hide the fact that they keep the Sabbath of the Lord their God.

All of this just seems like an incredible interpretation of Revelation. Some things are literal, others are not, but all of this is reliant on our society changing overnight in a way that no-one is going to support and no-one has a stake in.

[phkrause]

Exactly. And they are dying out, not growing. I can see how the SDA once found great traction in misinterpreting these laws, but I don't see how that can follow anymore. I've been told by SDA members that they hear about the spread of 'blue laws' every Sunday.

That's not correct, they are not dying out. As a matter of fact a number of years ago I was listening to a news show that was talking about these so called blue laws. They are all still on the books and can get put into law at anytime. As was mentioned by Club, I believe, these laws are all on the books. So at anytime they can be brought back. When I first moved up to Mass, no trucks were allowed to travel. Since than they have allowed them to travel. But can easily be brought out again.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Exactly. And they are dying out, not growing. I can see how the SDA once found great traction in misinterpreting these laws, but I don't see how that can follow anymore. I've been told by SDA members that they hear about the spread of 'blue laws' every Sunday.

That's not correct, they are not dying out. As a matter of fact a number of years ago I was listening to a news show that was talking about these so called blue laws. They are all still on the books and can get put into law at anytime. As was mentioned by Club, I believe, these laws are all on the books. So at anytime they can be brought back. When I first moved up to Mass, no trucks were allowed to travel. Since than they have allowed them to travel. But can easily be brought out again.

Yes. If you google 'ridiculous laws' you'll find many old fashioned laws 'still on the books'

- In Victoria Australia, only a licensed electrician is allowed to change a lightbulb.

- In Victoria Australia it is forbidden to wear pink hot pants after mid-day on a Sunday.

- It England, it is illegal for a cab in the City of London to carry rabid dogs or corpses.

- It England, it is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament.

- It England, it is an act of treason to place a postage stamp bearing the British monarch upside down.

- In France, it is forbidden to call a pig Napoleon.

- Under the UK’s Tax Avoidance Schemes Regulations 2006, it is illegal not to tell the taxman anything you don’t want him to know, though you don’t have to tell him anything you don’t mind him knowing.

- In Alabama, it is illegal for a driver to be blindfolded while driving a vehicle.

- In Ohio, it is against state law to get a fish drunk.

- Royal Navy ships that enter the Port of London must provide a barrel of rum to the Constable of the Tower of London.

- In the UK, a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants – even, if she so requests, in a policeman’s helmet.

- In Lancashire, no person is permitted after being asked to stop by a constable on the seashore to incite a dog to bark.

- In Miami, Florida, it is illegal to skateboard in a police station.

These laws exist, but are not enforced, not because of a sinister plot, but because of the laziness of legislators to bother removing a law no-one bothers to enforce. It doesn't change that our society would need to completely change overnight, because right now, neither side of the political divide would support blue laws being enforced. And I still don't see, why would anyone bother to enforce them ? What would the rationale be ?

[ClubV12]

Did you miss that part about WWIII? I think you did....

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

I've been told I can go on a Sunday now, although I'd be better off going on a Saturday, but that in the last days, everyone, Buddhists, atheists, you name it, will be forced to worship God on Sundays, and if I still go on Sundays when that happens, that will be the mark of the beast. At least, that's how I understood it.

You continue to try to stir up controversy over things that are simply not the belief of our church. We had this discussion previously. There are two things involved. One is the beliefs of the church. And the other are things that some members might espouse. We could go on for eternity discussing things that some individual might believe or not believe.

I am all for people following their conscience and understanding the Bible for themselves, but I am struggling with the idea that the SDA lets people believe whatever they want, so long as they do it on a Saturday. It seems a lot looser than any church I've ever come across. How am I to tell when someone tells me what Revelation says, and it gels with what other SDA members have told me, that they all come to this idea on their own and without the support of the church ?

[BobRyan]

Another question based on discussions with SDA members. Does the SDA really think that 'blue laws' will culminate in a law that people have to worship God on Sunday, and that going to church on a Sunday is the mark of the beast ? If so, if people who go to church on a Sunday have the mark of the beast, I assume anyone who does not go to church on the Sabbath is not saved ? In which case, why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means ?

Ok - to start with I have to say I really like the way BibleOnly thinks.

These are the right questions.

They are the right observations!

And though the conclusions are not quite accurate - these are the questions that are the most helpful to investigate! Well done!

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

The impression I've been given is that the SDA is holding on to parts of it's past preaching, but trying to be more ecumenical about it. It seems torn between beliefs that judge those outside the SDA, and a desire to accept everyone, when pressed. I've actually had SDA members tell me the preaching has been toned down in recent times, in the manner that I am describing. I'm guessing that you've noticed this and don't like it ?

[BobRyan]

If this Sunday law does indeed occur, there will be many that will be affected other than SDA's. It in essence is making any religion other than "Christianity" illegal. ( I put Christianity in quotes there cause that versionof it really goes against the teachings of Christ as far as I see)

Another good observation. When the laws predicted in SDA eschatology come about a great many religions - even Christian ones will have to "adjust" will have to "bend" to the new rule.

Ellen White refers to it as a "new more exalted system of religion" that Satan will effectively introduce - and the Bible says that mankind will fall for it.

In 2Thess 2 God says that mankind "does not receive a love of the truth" and therefore is turned over to 'strong delusions' at the end of time - via "signs and wonders" with "all power according to the working of Satan".

Pretty impressive stuff - right around the corner according to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

I guess the rub is, if this is true, no-one needs to live as if Jesus could return at any moment. You need to wait for the false signs, sunday law church to appear first. THAT is the danger of your views, IMO. Jesus said that we should be ready.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

. . .why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means?

Can't quite understand the above quote.

[BibleOnly]

On the one hand - a great observation. On the other hand you are missing the lesson of Noah.

In Noah's day it would be EASY to say to Noah "OK so you are saying that pretty soon it will rain soooooo much that it will flood the world. But don't you have to agree that this will not happen for a very long time since at present we are not getting any rain at all and no rainy season is even in the distant future?"

The people of Noah's day looking for a "gradual set of changes" that eventually leads to "a world wide flood" were never going to see it coming.

And that is what Matt 24 says about mankind at the end of time "they did not see it coming". Paul says it again in 1Thess 5:1-10 -- "They will not see it coming".

The "reason" is that both Rev 13 and 2Thess 2 tell us that the ending events are "driven" first by "Signs and wonders" - only after THAT - does Rev 13 declare the "Mark of the Beast" and the "image to the beast" is setup.

[BobRyan]

I guess the rub is, if this is true, no-one needs to live as if Jesus could return at any moment. You need to wait for the false signs, sunday law church to appear first. THAT is the danger of your views, IMO. Jesus said that we should be ready.

Again - a great observation.

In Rev 15:8 Christ's work as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary ends BEFORE the 7 last plagues begin - in Rev 16:1.

That is "huge" when you read 1John 2:1-2 and find out just what Christ is doing for us in heaven - in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.

If that ministry of Christ should end - then the Rev 22 event will have taken place "Let him who is filthy be filthy still... let him who is righteous be righteous still".

In Ezek 9 the end of time is illustrated as Angels going through God's city and marking the saints - who sigh and groan over the sins committed.

In Rev 7 - the 4 winds of strif and war are being restrained ONLY as long as it takes to seal the saints at the end of time. Then after that -- the Rev 15:8 event occurs.

Peter says "Judgment begins with the house of God - and if it begins with us first - what about those who rebel against God".

In Rev 14:6-7 an announcement is made to all peoples of the earth "The hour of His judgment has come" -- that message went forward in 1844 and is still sounding today.

When that final phase of Christ's ministry in heaven ends - the judgment is over - the saints are sealed, no man can change sides after that -- and the plagues are poured out.

Christ said that all will be surprised.

In the days of Noah - SEVEN DAYS before the rain fell - it was "too late" because the door of the ark had already closed.

A lot of people miss that detail.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

On the one hand - a great observation. On the other hand you are missing the lesson of Noah.

In Noah's day it would be EASY to say to Noah "OK so you are saying that pretty soon it will rain soooooo much that it will flood the world. But don't you have to agree that this will not happen for a very long time since at present we are not getting any rain at all and no rainy season is even in the distant future?"

The people of Noah's day looking for a "gradual set of changes" that eventually leads to "a world wide flood" were never going to see it coming.

And that is what Matt 24 says about mankind at the end of time "they did not see it coming". Paul says it again in 1Thess 5:1-10 -- "They will not see it coming".

The "reason" is that both Rev 13 and 2Thess 2 tell us that the ending events are "driven" first by "Signs and wonders" - only after THAT - does Rev 13 declare the "Mark of the Beast" and the "image to the beast" is setup.