The future

[BibleOnly]

"You lack spiritual discernment and are unwilling to consider counsel from others on your preconceived ideas. "

This is a cheap shot that I could as easily direct at you. It proves nothing, only the Bible matters. Hence my name :-)

"The question for you, BibleOnly, which spirit are you listening to?"

The one that does not contradict the Bible would be my main answer.

"The fourth commandment is clear, worship on the Sabbath. God's law has never changed, will never change. It remains truth for eternity and is truth regardless of what any man thinks. It was here before us and will remain long after we are gone."

Yes, I know. Someone else mentioned that, too

Seriously, I came here to ask questions ( and still am ). If the SDA had a remotely credibile case, I'd be at church next Saturday, no question. I've asked a number of questions on other matters, and had no answers regarding a number of verses that contradict your views, so I don't think you have a high moral ground on which to tell me that I am 'unwilling to accept counsel'. But, I didn't expect to see anyone saved out of this, only for my understanding to be expanded. As you said, as a Christian, it's my responsibility to speak the truth, and I am. My truth is consistent with the whole Bible. I could care less what day I go to church on, and in that sense, and on that front, I was more than open to hearing that I needed to be corrected. But, most of your arguments are only good for preaching to the converted. They don't stand up to questioning.

[ClubV12]

"The fourth commandment is clear, worship on the Sabbath. God's law has never changed, will never change. It remains truth for eternity and is truth regardless of what any man thinks. It was here before us and will remain long after we are gone."

"Yes, I know. Someone else mentioned that, too."

And yet you reject even this plain and simple testimony to the point of not even considering the supporting biblical evidence. You lack spiritual discernment from the choices you make in daily life, this is just one example. You ask questions, receive the counsel and then complain you didn't get the answer. The answer YOU wanted, not the answer God has provided in his word.

"I could care less what day I go to church on..."

Therein lays the problem, God means what He says, there is only ONE sanctified day of worship. That day is not of your choosing, it is the Seventh day and His near coming, His Advent is close at hand. Choose carefully whom you are serving.

[BibleOnly]

"And yet you reject even this plain and simple testimony to the point of not even considering the supporting biblical evidence."

No, I explain what it meant then and what it means now. From the Bible.

"You lack spiritual discernment from the choices you make in daily life"

This is an amazing statement from someone who has never met me and does not even know my name.

"You ask questions, receive the counsel and then complain you didn't get the answer"

On the contrary. I pointed out that there are aspects I've not been answered on, but said I have been given a broad understanding of how you escape scriptures that contradict you ( see, I can be pushy too, if you'd like !! ), and as that is what I asked for, there's probably not much point in rehashing this topic further. Interesting that it's getting personal, just as I feared.

"Therein lays the problem, God means what He says, there is only ONE sanctified day of worship."

'Today is the day of salvation'. One question I never got an answer on. There's only one day that is 'sanctified for worship'. I assume by some word game you explain how this is different to not being able to worship other days, but no-one told me what the difference was, apart from 'God said it' ( i.e. how does your worship differ because it is 'sanctified, and doesn't that mean God in some ways disregards your other worship ), or how one day can be more holy than another, when I am the temple of God.

"Choose carefully whom you are serving."

Don't worry, I have. To the point that I have honestly listened and considered your views, in case there was something for me to learn. But, the core of your belief, according to some here, is that God hid the Gospel to stop people from being saved, and that is why the NT is not clear. That at least some SDAs need to take this position tells me they are smart enough to at least see that the NT does not support you, and yet, silly enough to think that God is trying to barricade the path to heaven, lest we sneak in

[12tribes]

This part highlighted is a reference to the sabbath

Revelation 14:7

(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Exodus 20:11

(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So the first angels message calls us to worship God on the sabbath

Revelation 14:8

(8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 18:2-4

(2) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

(3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The 2nd angels message calls people out of Babylon. So when they come out what will they do where will they go? The 1st angels message gives the answer they will keep the sabbath. So then Babylon consists of those who do not keep the sabbath. The 3 angels message are 3 parts of 1 message.

So the issue in the 1st 2 angels messages is already a sabbath issue

Revelation 13:15-16

(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Those who worship the beast receive the mark of the beast. The third angels message is about those who worship the beast and those who worship God.

Revelation 14:9-12

(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The issue is over worship and as shown in particular the sabbath. The sabbath is a sign but, that is for another thread.

[BibleOnly]

Rev 14 and 18 do not mention the Sabbath. Not at all.

Rev 13 - yes, this is true. They worship the beast. They don't worship God on the wrong day.

I used the search built in to my browser just in case I am going blind. Not one scripture you quoted refers to the Sabbath.

[12tribes]

Rev 14 and 18 do not mention the Sabbath. Not at all.

Rev 13 - yes, this is true. They worship the beast. They don't worship God on the wrong day.

I used the search built in to my browser just in case I am going blind. Not one scripture you quoted refers to the Sabbath.

Look more closely, Rev 14:7 is a reference to the sabbath

[BibleOnly]

No, it's not. It's only a reference to the Sabbath through the sort of 'God hid the truth' type word games that seem common in the SDA. If God wanted the angel to say 'make sure you keep the Sabbath', that's what he would have said. So that His message was clear, not hidden.

[12tribes]

The message is clear just read the text Rev 14:7. Also Rev 14:12 says that God's people keep the commandments of God, so that includes the sabbath

[BibleOnly]

This is all word games. It is still true you can't extrapolate the Sabbath from what Revelations actually SAYS. You need instead to say 'commandments always == sabbath' and 'if the wording is similar then it's secret code for Sabbath'.

[John317]

If Jesus doesn't expect people to obey His law, why will He reject people for being "lawless"?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

More word games. If Jesus expected us to just keep the Law He kept, what did His death achieve ?

Are you going to tell Jesus that what He said was mere "word games"?

Do you believe that Christ came here and suffered and died so that we can disobey God's law? Faith in Christ does not release us from obedience to God's moral law.

Jesus' example of obedience to His Father's commandments is for us to follow.

John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

John 14:15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 John 2:5-6

but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

If Jesus doesn't expect people to obey His law, why will He reject people for being "lawless"?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

More word games. If Jesus expected us to just keep the Law He kept, what did His death achieve ?

Are you going to tell Jesus that what He said was mere "word games"?

[12tribes]

Quote:

Are you going to tell Jesus that what He said was mere "word games"?

Do you believe that Christ came here and suffered and died so that we can disobey God's law? Faith in Christ does not release us from obedience to God's moral law.

Jesus' example of obedience to His Father's commandments is for us to follow.

John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

John 14:15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 John 2:5-6

but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

That is true and just to add to that

Romans 3:31

(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[BobRyan]

Rev 14 do not mention the Sabbath. Not at all.

The unique language of Ex 20:11 first is quoted in Rev 14:7. Impossible to ignore with an over-simplistic "I refuse to notice".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

This part highlighted is a reference to the sabbath

Revelation 14:7

(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Exodus 20:11

(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Very true.

impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Rev 14 do not mention the Sabbath. Not at all.

The unique language of Ex 20:11 first is quoted in Rev 14:7. Impossible to ignore with an over-simplistic "I refuse to notice".

in Christ,

Bob

*sigh* yes, because those who just read the Bible with faith, and not deep knowledge, should not expect to find salvation.

[John317]

7) Question: Would it make sense to jettison this symbol which is a constant reminder of the rest we have in Christ, yet a rest that will not be complete until the second coming of Christ?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

When Jesus returns we will be judging the nations, not resting.

You misunderstand. I'm not suggesting we will be inactive. True rest in Christ, of the type that the saved will experience after the second coming of Christ, does not preclude doing the works of God.

The point is that no one on earth now has complete rest in Christ. The Sabbath-rest that Hebrews 4 speaks of will only be completely fulfilled when Christ sets up His eternal kingdom. That is "the blessed hope" that all followers of Christ are looking for.

Titus 2: 13--

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 11: 39, 40 refers to the same perfect rest enjoyed by the saved:

Hebrews 11:39-40

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [40] since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

NOTE: The saved will all experience the perfect rest together, not at different times or seperately. That time will be the second coming [parousia] of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 9:28

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

[John317]

Do you believe that Christ came here and suffered and died so that we can disobey God's law? Faith in Christ does not release us from obedience to God's moral law.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

No, it was to fulfil God's law and open the way to a new covenant. It was not to keep things the same.

Yes, Christ came to fulfill God's law. He completely obeyed God's law.

And Christ also gave humanity a new covenant. All true.

But what does this mean?

You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God.

What is the new covenant?

When was it ratified?

Is the weekly Sabbath a part of the new covenant?

[BibleOnly]

"You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God. "

You appear to think that this is not a personal attack, or an unfair expression of the views I've expressed.

"Is the weekly Sabbath a part of the new covenant? "

In the same way that circumcision is. It's not done away with, but the shadow has been replaced by the fullness of what God intended. The Sabbath is more fundamental than circumcision and more central to the Gospel, but the principle is the same.

The real question is, whatever day you go to church, have you received the Spirit since you believed, and how did you know ?

[John317]

Do you believe that Christ came here and suffered and died so that we can disobey God's law? Faith in Christ does not release us from obedience to God's moral law.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

... I've said this a hundred times and no-one can answer me.

Where have you said this a hundred times? Is that a hyperbole?

This is the first time I have seen this statement.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

In the law, we were not to kill. In the NT, we love our brother as ourself. In the OT we were told to take a day off. In the New, we rest in God all the time. Better, see ?

Some of God's people found that rest in God under the Old Covenant. Therefore, that rest was available before the New Covenant.

In the Old Testament, people were to love their brother as themselves the same as we are to love our brother as ourselves.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

In the OT we were told to take a day off. In the New, we rest in God all the time. Better, see ?

But resting in Christ/God all the time does not preclude the keeping of the Sabbath day. I rest in Jesus all through the week, and the keeping of the Sabbath is like icing on the cake.

How would NOT resting on the weekly Sabbath be better? That would mean there is no day of rest but that all 7 days are for work. Does that sound better to you?

The seventh day is still blessed and holy. It is still the holy day of the Lord.

The proof of this is found in the following texts, all of which were written decades after the ascension of Christ. The apostles and disciples knew nothing about an end of the weekly Sabbath or of a new day for worship:

Luke 23:56

Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments.

On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Acts 13:14

but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 13:42-44

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. [43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

[44] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

NOTE: Antioch in Asia was a Gentile city and it says almost the entire city came out on the Sabbath to hear the word of God preached. Notice that Paul did not tell the people there would be a worship service on Sunday, the very next day. Instead, they waited an entire week before returning to hear the Gospel of Christ proclaimed.

Acts 16:13

And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Acts 17:2

And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4

And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Acts 18:11

And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

NOTE: the book of Acts records many Sabbaths. Is there any indication that the apostles viewed the Sabbath as a common work day?

On the other hand, look and see what the apostles are doing on the first day of the week. Is there any indication that the apostles viewed the first day as a holy day or a special time for worship?

The first day is mentioned 8 times in the New Testament. Is there clear evidence that it was considered a holy day for worship and study of the Scriptures?

Were Paul or the other apostles teaching that the weekly Sabbath no longer applied and that there was a new day for worship?

Was Paul ever accused of breaking the Sabbath?

[John317]

You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

You appear to think that this is not a personal attack, or an unfair expression of the views I've expressed.

No, that is not a personal attack. I'm asking you about your beliefs and discussing what you appear to be saying in your writing.

Please explain how my sentence is an unfair expression of your views. I am only telling you there what it seems to me you are saying.

[John317]

Is the weekly Sabbath a part of the new covenant?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

In the same way that circumcision is.

But circumcision is not a part of the new covenant at all.

1 Cor. 7:19

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God is what counts.

NOTE: Keeping the commandments of God are a part of the New Covenant but circumcision is not. The General Conference in Acts 15 decided the same. See especially Acts 15: 1-2, 24-29.

So it does not matter under the New Covenant whether we are circumcised or not. Yet it does matter whether we obey the commandments of God.

Do you agree?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

You appear to believe that Christ's fulfillment of God's law means that humans can live in sin and disobedience to God.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

You appear to think that this is not a personal attack, or an unfair expression of the views I've expressed.

No, that is not a personal attack. I'm asking you about your beliefs and discussing what you appear to be saying in your writing.

Please explain how my sentence is an unfair expression of your views. I am only telling you there what it seems to me you are saying.

I guess there's no point in talking then. I've never once stated that we can live in sin, I've always stated the opposite.

[John317]

"Is the weekly Sabbath a part of the new covenant? "

Circumcision was done away with and was replaced by baptism.

The Sabbath was done away with IF nobody needs to pay attention to it or keep it.

The main purpose of the Sabbath was to memorialize God's creation of the world. It was made in Eden before sin entered into human experience.Therefore the Sabbath was not originally intended to point humans to anything in the future. The Sabbath was given additional significance at time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The Sabbath is more fundamental than circumcision and more central to the Gospel, but the principle is the same.[/quote']

There's a clear passage of Scripture which says circumcision has been done away with and is no longer of any significance. On the other hand, there are many Scriptures which show that God's moral law summarized in the Ten Commandments, including the fourth commandment, continues under the New Covenant. See some of these verses on post #497476 of this discussion.

[John317]

I've never once stated that we can live in sin, I've always stated the opposite.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying about God's law, which includes the Sabbath commandment.

Do you agree that sin is disobedience to God's law? 1 John 3: 4; James 2:9; Romans 7:7.

[John317]

Jesus' example of obedience to His Father's commandments is for us to follow.

John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

John 14:15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 John 2:5-6

but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Sure. I agree. I just dont think that the word 'commandment' means 'sabbath' or even the 10 commandments instead of the way Jesus expressed those principles. I thank you for not killing me, but I'll continue loving you as I love myself.

There are many passages of Scripture which use "the commandments" in reference to the Decalogue, or the Moral law of God.

For instance:

Mark 10:19

You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.' "

Romans 13:9

The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Luke 18:20

You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.' "

Deut. 11:26-28

"See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: [27] the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, [28] and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known.

Deut. 13:4

You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.

Exodus 20:6

but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Which of the Ten Commandments do you think Jesus intended for His followers to break or ignore under the New Covenant?

Didn't Paul and the other Christians in the book of Acts continue to keep the weekly Sabbath after the death of Christ?

I'm really interested in what your thoughts are about this.