The future

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Sabbath is never called "man's day" but it belongs to God who made it. Christ said He made it for mankind's [our] benefit. How are we using it? Most of the world-- even of those who claim to follow Christ-- have forgotten the very thing He said to "remember."

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

This is also a word game. It says 'remember' because it's something to remember once a week, not something to do all the time. You guys make far too much of this.

I agree that it is something to remember.

But perhaps God didn't mean to remember it once a week. I believe God wants us to remember the Sabbath all through the week.

Only a holy person can keep the Sabbath holy. If a person is not holy throughout the week, he can't really keep the Sabbath holy as God intended. By a holy person, I mean someone who belongs to God and is separate from sin all week long. He remembers this every day of the week. So the Sabbath is really the goal of the entire week.

Can you think of any other commandment, besides the Sabbath commandment, which most Christians today claim we can forget?

It really seems to me that God had a very good reason to command people to "remember" the Sabbath-day to keep it holy. He apparently knew that it was the one commandment that people would try hardest to forget.

No, this is just a word game. It says 'remember' because the Sabbath is something you remember once a week. All the other commandments are things you do all the time, not 'remember' at a certain time.

I agree, only a holy person can obey God. So, what makes us holy ?

[John317]

4) On the contrary, the writer says that it is those who have truly ceased from their works AS God ceased from His works who have entered God's rest.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Yes, and a Christian repents, that is, turns around from their own works, and baptism represents the death of those works and ideas.

But if that is all a person does, he is not ceasing from his works AS God ceased from His works.

God ceased working/creating on the seventh-day Sabbath.

When we do that, we show that we are resting from our works and are resting in Christ.

Can a person honestly claim to rest in Christ while disobeying His law?

I agree with you that a Christian repents. But of what does he repent? Doesn't he repent of his sins?

And what is "sin"?

What will Christ say to many people?

Matthew 7:22-23

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: These people were followers of Christ who believed they were obeying Christ, yet Christ rejects them as people who weren't keeping His law at all.

What part of God's law do millions of Christians today believe it's OK to disobey?

Could it be they believe they are resting in Christ while actually disobeying Him? Are such really ceasing from their works JUST AS God [Christ] ceased from His?

[BibleOnly]

"But if that is all a person does, he is not ceasing from his works AS God ceased from His works."

That's true, they need also to be born again of the Spirit, and then walk in newness of life.

"Can a person honestly claim to rest in Christ while disobeying His law?"

The law that is never once stated to the church in the New Testament ?

"NOTE: These people were followers of Christ who believed they were obeying Christ, yet Christ rejects them as people who weren't keeping His law at all."

In fact, Jesus never told us to 'keep His law'. He says to follow Him, not His law. But, yes, this verse is very true. Many worship in the Spirit, but fail to worship in truth, and Jesus will say He never knew them, for they followed their own ideas.

"What part of God's law do millions of Christians today believe it's OK to disobey?"

I really don't know how often I'm expected to respond to this. It's still the case that the Bible says we're children of Jerusalem, not Sinai. What is Sinai famous for, if not the 10 commandments ?

"Could it be they believe they are resting in Christ while actually disobeying Him? Are such really ceasing from their works JUST AS God [Christ] ceased from His?"

Actually, yes. Because, God ceased once and for all from creation, and we cease once and for all from living in our own strength when we accept the Gospel.

[John317]

5) How do we cease from our works AS God ceased from His works? Hebrews 4: 4 gives the answer:

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

This does not answer that question at all.

True Sabbath-keeping is impossible without keeping the same Sabbath that God rested on. What Sabbath did He rest on? Wasn't it the seventh day of week?

Is it possible for us to cease from our works as God ceased from His works while we are disobeying His commandments?

Resting in Christ/God means having Him as Lord of our lives, and this we cannot do if we refuse to keep His commandments.

John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 John 2:4

Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1 John 3:4-5

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

NOTE: God's law defines sin.

1 Cor. 7:19

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

1 Cor. 9:19-22

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

NOTE: Paul was still mindful of the law of God as Christ taught during His ministry on earth. Therefore, the law of God was still valid at the time Paul wrote His first letter to the Corinthian believers.

The law of God= the commandments of God.

Paul tells us what this refers to, the Ten Commandments:

Romans 13:8-10

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. [9] The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [10] Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So did Christ:

Matthew 15:3-4

He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? [4] For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Who ever reviles father or mother must surely die.'

Matthew 19:17-19

And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." [18] He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19] Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

James shows that the Ten Commandments still apply for the Christian:

James 2:8-12

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. [9] But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. [10] For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. [11] For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

[John317]

...

The law that is never once stated to the church in the New Testament ?

Are you talking about the Sabbath commandment?

How often does God have to give a commandment before it's clear that God means what He says?

When was the New Covenant ratified?

[BibleOnly]

"1 Cor. 9:19-22

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

NOTE: Paul was still mindful of the law of God as Christ taught during His ministry on earth. Therefore, the law of God was still valid at the time Paul wrote His first letter to the Corinthian believers.

The law of God= the commandments of God.

Paul tells us what this refers to, the Ten Commandments:"

That is the opposite of what Paul said. Paul said that while he doesn't have to keep the law ( and so can appear to be outside the law when speaking to Greeks ), he will appear as one still under it, to win the Jews. His statements make no sense if they mean that he still kept the same law, all the time. That's not what he said.

"(though not being myself under the law)"

[John317]

In fact, Jesus never told us to 'keep His law'. He says to follow Him, not His law.

If Jesus doesn't expect people to obey His law, why will He reject people for being "lawless"?

(Jesus denied that His coming would have the effect of destroying the law and the prophets. He warned against teaching people that it is OK to break even "one of the least of these commandmentsf." Matt. 5: 17-20.)

Again, what is sin? Is it not disobeying God's will?

And what is God's will?

God's will is His law.

The Bible clearly teaches that sin is defined by the law of God.

James 2: 9 tells us that the law of God convicts people as "transgressors."

James compares the law to a mirror which shows us our sin and our need of being cleansed. James 1: 23-25.

If we don't look into the law of God and see our sins, we won't believe we need a Savior to save us from our sins.

This is proof that God's law has not changed any more than God Himself has changed.

[BibleOnly]

"If Jesus doesn't expect people to obey His law, why will He reject people for being "lawless"? "

More word games. If Jesus expected us to just keep the Law He kept, what did His death achieve ?

"Again, what is sin? Is it not disobeying God's will?

And what is God's will?

God's will is His law."

Why is the SDA doctrine based on word games instead of scripture ? It gets frustrating.

"James 2: 9 tells us that the law of God convicts people as "transgressors.""

Of course, that is what the law did, it convicted us of sin.

"If we don't look into the law of God and see our sins, we won't believe we need a Savior to save us from our sins.

This is proof that God's law has not changed any more than God Himself has changed."

Although this is a word game, it is true. God has not changed. Nor has His nature. But, the convenant has changed, and thank goodness, as the old one could not save anyone.

[John317]

God's will is His law.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Why is the SDA doctrine based on word games instead of scripture ? It gets frustrating.

This is no word game. This is biblical.

Are you saying you don't believe God's will is His law?

What does it mean to say God's will is His law?

Are you unfamiliar with this teaching? It is found in the New Testament.

[John317]

Although this is a word game, it is true. God has not changed. Nor has His nature. But, the convenant has changed, and thank goodness, as the old one could not save anyone.

Although you may say it is another "word game," may I ask you what is the Old and the New Covenants?

When were those two covenants ratified?

[John317]

6) Therefore resting on the seventh-day Sabbath is a symbol of the greater rest that we have in Christ. It is a reminder every time we keep it that we are resting in Christ, ceasing from our own works and resting in Him.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So, we have full rest in Christ, but we double rest on Saturday ? I've asked several times how that works, care to explain ?

This is the first time I've seen your question.

It is somewhat like a man who loves his wife every day of the year so he thinks that keeping their wedding anniversary is useless.

Similarly, resting in Christ every momemnt of every day of the week is all the more reason to keep the Sabbath.

God only blessed and sanctified one day of the week. What makes the seventh day holy? God's presence. God is present in the seventh day in a special way, in a way that you can't find Him present in any of the other days of the week.

The seventh day of the week is holy TIME because God is in it.

God's blessing of it means that He set it apart from the other days as a special time for meeting with you. It is like the wedding anniversary is set apart from the other days as a special time for a man and a wife to be together.

What would you think if someone said that their love for their spouse meant that they had no need to meet on a certain day but that they could celebrate their anniversary any day they chose? I'm sure one of the partners in the marriage would be disappointed when the other didn't show up.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Whenever I say I rest in Christ every day, people here assume I have no job. How can I rest if I am working ? This is a very natural point of view.

I understand perfectly what you mean. I doubt the people on the Adventist Forum really think it means you have no job.

People can rest spiritually very well while working or while doing any other righteous activity. However, one can't rest spiritually in Christ while knowingly disobeying Him.

[John317]

James 2: 9 tells us that the law of God convicts people as "transgressors.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Of course, that is what the law did, it convicted us of sin.

What the law did? Do you mean it no longer convicts of sin?

Let's suppose a Christian commits adultery in thought or act-- will he be convicted by the law as a transgressor, so that he knows to repent of his sin and seek Christ for forgiveness?

Or will the Christian believe that the law of God is no longer in existence and that he can continue to commit adultery?

How is the continued violation of the Sabbath commandment any different?

[John317]

...I agree, only a holy person can obey God. So, what makes us holy ?

Christ and His Spirit in the life makes a Christian "holy."

Will the Holy Spirit ever inspire or lead a person to disobey God's law?

When a believer comes to Christ in genuine faith, repents, makes confession of sins, and accepts Him as His personal Savior, at that moment He is justified (set in right relationship with God) and sanctified (set apart for God's holy use). It's an instaneous work of God's grace.

Then, from that time on, the believer continues the process of being sanctified. That is to say, he grows in Christ and is led by the Spirit to seperate sin from himself as the Holy Spirit convicts him of the changes he needs to make in his life in order to be in conformity with God's will.

Again, God's will is His law. Do you believe this?

[John317]

1 Cor. 9:19-22

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

Paul said that while he doesn't have to keep the law ( and so can appear to be outside the law when speaking to Greeks ), he will appear as one still under it, to win the Jews. His statements make no sense if they mean that he still kept the same law, all the time. That's not what he said.

"(though not being myself under the law)"

What law is Paul saying he doesn't have to keep, or is "not under"?

Is Paul saying he doesn't have to pay attention to, or keep, the law of God?

What is meant by "not being outside the law of God"?

What is meant by "the law of Christ"?

Which part of God's law did Paul continually violate because he believed he didn't need to keep it?

"Being under the law" in verse 20 is referring to the Jewish law, right?

And "those outside the law" refers to Gentiles who did not need to obey Jewish law.

So Paul is saying that he obeyed the laws of Moses when among Jews, but when among Gentiles he didn't obey the laws of Moses. Therefore to those outside the Jewish law, Paul lived as one outside the Jewish law, but he always obeyed the law of God as Christ taught it during His earthly ministry.

Thus Paul makes a clear distinction between the Jewish law and the law of God, i.e., the commandments of God.

He makes the same distinction in 1 Cor. 7: 19--

1 Cor. 7:19

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God is what matters. {NKJV}

[BobRyan]

Indeed in the same book - the same letter to the same church - 1Cor 7:19 Paul shows the distinction between obligation to the ceremonial law - vs the moral law - the "Commandments of God".

This is the context for 1Cor 9:19-22 where Paul speaks of the ceremonies and traditions of the Jews and contrasts that to the commandments of God in the Bible - that always apply to "all mankind" such as Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship" (just as we all will do for eternity in the New Earth).

Paul is pointing out that when he is with Gentiles he puts away the ceremonies and man-made-traditions of Jews - and "lives as the gentiles" (as we see in Galatians 2 and Galatians 4).

But when with the Jews - he adopts those practices - identified in Romans 14 as the (Bible-approved) annual ceremonial days of Lev 23 - where no one in the church is to judge another for keeping or for not keeping.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

The writer says, "Therefore the Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God." What "remains" is not new but must have existed before.

So the "Sabbath-rest" he speaks of remains over from an earlier period of time. It points both forward and backward-- forward to the salvation/rest which believers have in Jesus and is to be completely fulfilled on the new earth, and backward to God's rest on the seventh-day because of His finished work of creation. Therefore, the Sabbath-rest that remains to God's people is intimately associated with God as both Creator and Redeemer.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The concept remains, yet it has changed, from Saturday, to 'today. That is what it says.

It actually says that David called it "Today" in Psalm 95: 7,8. He wrote it about 1000 BC.

But as for the name "Saturday," God's Word never calls it "Saturday." That term means "Saturn's day."

What is the seventh day of the week continously called in the book of Acts? Isn't it always called "THE Sabbath"?

Why is this?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Why do you think the Sabbath is identified as 'today' in these verses ?

Because the Sabbath IS representative, or symbolic, of spiritual rest in Christ. But as I pointed out above, the New Testament always refers to the seventh day of the week as "the Sabbath," and NEVER as something that no longer exists. In fact, the book of Hebrews makes it clear that the Sabbath was still being kept. The fifth century church historians Socrates and Sozoman both wrote that Christians in most parts of the world-- except for Alexandria and Rome-- were still keeping the Sabbath.

Therefore, the correct answer is certainly NOT that it is no longer the Sabbath. It mostly certainly is. It was still the Sabbath of the Lord our God in Acts 13: 42-44, which was written about 60-65 AD.

[John317]

[ClubV12]

With no apology to BibleOnly I submit this prophetic view of the coming crisis. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

"The time of trouble was upon us. I saw our people in great distress, weeping and praying, pleading the sure promises of God, while the wicked were all around us mocking us and threatening to destroy us. They ridiculed our feebleness, they mocked at the smallness of our numbers, and taunted us with words calculated to cut deep. They charged us with taking an independent position from all the rest of the world. They had cut off our resources so that we could not buy or sell, and they referred to our abject poverty and stricken condition. They could not see how we could live without the world. We were dependent on the world, and we must concede to the customs, practices, and laws of the world, or go out of it. If we were the only people in the world whom the Lord favored, the appearances were awfully against us. They declared that they had the truth, that miracles were among them; that angels from heaven talked with them and walked with them, that great power and signs and wonders were performed among them, and that this was the temporal millennium they had been expecting so long. The whole world was converted and in harmony with the Sunday law, and this little feeble people stood out in defiance of the laws of the land and the law of God, and claimed to be the only ones right on the earth. . . ."

Selected Messages, Book 3, pg 427

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

God's will is His law.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Why is the SDA doctrine based on word games instead of scripture ? It gets frustrating.

This is no word game. This is biblical.

Are you saying you don't believe God's will is His law?

What does it mean to say God's will is His law?

Are you unfamiliar with this teaching? It is found in the New Testament.

I'm saying that

'the bible says x'

'x logically proves y'

'if you invert y, you get z, so that must be true'

is not a Bible based discussion, it's taking one verse and using a chaing of human logic to get to your conclusion.

[BibleOnly]

With no apology to BibleOnly I submit this prophetic view of the coming crisis. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

"The time of trouble was upon us. I saw our people in great distress, weeping and praying, pleading the sure promises of God, while the wicked were all around us mocking us and threatening to destroy us. They ridiculed our feebleness, they mocked at the smallness of our numbers, and taunted us with words calculated to cut deep. They charged us with taking an independent position from all the rest of the world. They had cut off our resources so that we could not buy or sell, and they referred to our abject poverty and stricken condition. They could not see how we could live without the world. We were dependent on the world, and we must concede to the customs, practices, and laws of the world, or go out of it. If we were the only people in the world whom the Lord favored, the appearances were awfully against us. They declared that they had the truth, that miracles were among them; that angels from heaven talked with them and walked with them, that great power and signs and wonders were performed among them, and that this was the temporal millennium they had been expecting so long. The whole world was converted and in harmony with the Sunday law, and this little feeble people stood out in defiance of the laws of the land and the law of God, and claimed to be the only ones right on the earth. . . ."

Selected Messages, Book 3, pg 427

This is obviously only loosely based on the Bible. Were is it from ?

[ClubV12]

Since you reject the plain word of the bible on SO many topics already, what difference does it make where it comes from. It's one authors BIBLICAL view of coming events. Like the bible, you can reject it or accept it, or consider it's value.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

With no apology to BibleOnly I submit this prophetic view of the coming crisis. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

"The time of trouble was upon us. I saw our people in great distress, weeping and praying, pleading the sure promises of God, while the wicked were all around us mocking us and threatening to destroy us. They ridiculed our feebleness, they mocked at the smallness of our numbers, and taunted us with words calculated to cut deep. They charged us with taking an independent position from all the rest of the world. They had cut off our resources so that we could not buy or sell, and they referred to our abject poverty and stricken condition. They could not see how we could live without the world. We were dependent on the world, and we must concede to the customs, practices, and laws of the world, or go out of it. If we were the only people in the world whom the Lord favored, the appearances were awfully against us. They declared that they had the truth, that miracles were among them; that angels from heaven talked with them and walked with them, that great power and signs and wonders were performed among them, and that this was the temporal millennium they had been expecting so long. The whole world was converted and in harmony with the Sunday law, and this little feeble people stood out in defiance of the laws of the land and the law of God, and claimed to be the only ones right on the earth. . . ."

Selected Messages, Book 3, pg 427

This is obviously only loosely based on the Bible. Were is it from ?

Its from Ellen G White

[BibleOnly]

It actually says that David called it "Today" in Psalm 95: 7,8. He wrote it about 1000 BC.

[BibleOnly]

Since you reject the plain word of the bible on SO many topics already, what difference does it make where it comes from. It's one authors BIBLICAL view of coming events. Like the bible, you can reject it or accept it, or consider it's value.

Well, the Bible nowhere says that the mark of the beast is Sunday worship. That's the big invention at the core of all this.

[ClubV12]

BibleOnly says,

"None of this surprises me."

Nor me, I figured out in one or two pages where this was going to end for you BibleOnly. You lack spiritual discernment and are unwilling to consider counsel from others on your preconceived ideas. Theres a billion people like that in the world, there is little you can say to them that will make any real difference in their life.

Though, it it a Christian responsibility to try, our work is only to speak the truth, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict of the truth. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The question for you, BibleOnly, which spirit are you listening to?

The fourth commandment is clear, worship on the Sabbath. God's law has never changed, will never change. It remains truth for eternity and is truth regardless of what any man thinks. It was here before us and will remain long after we are gone.