The future

[BibleOnly]

Another question based on discussions with SDA members. Does the SDA really think that 'blue laws' will culminate in a law that people have to worship God on Sunday, and that going to church on a Sunday is the mark of the beast ? If so, if people who go to church on a Sunday have the mark of the beast, I assume anyone who does not go to church on the Sabbath is not saved ? In which case, why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means ?

[Q.E.D.]

Another question based on discussions with SDA members. Does the SDA really think that 'blue laws' will culminate in a law that people have to worship God on Sunday?

[Q.E.D.]

. . .why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means?

Can't quite understand the above quote.

[fccool]

I'll help to explain the above quote. I think it comes from misunderstanding that SDA church is saying that people who worship on Sunday in the end times will accept the Mark of the Beast.

This perspective is not accurate. SDA chuch does not teach that MOB is enforced now through Sunday, neither does it teach that MOB is by means of Sunday alone. The idea is that of a forceful obedience to religious order through force of State. I.E., it would make it illegal not to worship on Sunday, or worship any other day. Accepting that type of law and worshiping on Sunday for fear of loosing some sort of convenience is accepting MOB as per SDA doctrine. It's not merely going to Church on Sunday.

Sure, there may be Sunday-worshiping Christians who in that situation would continue to do so, but SDA church position is that any Christian should recognize the problematic nature of such arrangement and oppose it.

IMO this arrangement will not happen in our lifetime. I don't see how in this day and age of immense information abundance the entire nation, half of which are extremely liberal in nature would be persuaded that passing such law would be a great idea. SDA prophetic interpretation dictates that USA will enforce these laws, and I simply don't see it happening anytime soon.

[ClubV12]

I can see it happening considering some new revelations/interpretations that are gaining traction concerning Daniel 11:40-45 in particular.

The idea is that the King of the South is Islam, pushing against the King of the North (pushing, as in irritating, attacking, provoking). Based on the history of Islam vs Christianity, the cycles of war and peace, we are at a time of increasing likely hood we are entering yet another cycle of war. I do belive it is possible Islam (a very broad term) will do something remarkable, SO remarkable it will make the Twin Towers look like a shot across the bow. A nuclear or biological attack on a grand scale cannot be ruled out. An event SO catastrophic the King of the North will come against it like a "whirl wind". We have seen only skirmishes of NATO's ability to wage war. Imagine if the gloves came off and we got deadly serious about dealing with this problem once and for all. France would join such an alliance in a heart beat, the Islam problem in their Nation HAS become a threat to National Security already. According to the prophecy some nations will be utterly destroyed, others will be "passed through", others will ally with NATO (submit in order to live) but will take no action themselves. This will be effectively WWIII, a global event.

Now combine this with world wide economic collapse, civil unrest on a huge scale, martial law. These combined forces will force the legislaters up against the wall. "They will think to change times and laws", even change or ignore the Constitution. Not because they want to, but because the PEOPLE will DEMAND it! A growing and powerful "back to God" movement, for "God and Country" and those that don't go along will be unpatriotic, ungodly, sympathizers with Islam. Christains will unite with each other under a common enemy theme, to restor peace to the world. Sunday laws will be a sign of acknowledgment of that power base. Refuse them and you will be a traitor to your country.

Could it happen in our lifetime? I wouldn't rule it out, it could start to come together tommorow, when the Vatican gets "nuked" or some other major, huge event with world wide consequences like the world has never seen before. The Euro becomes worthless, the dollar tanks, LA is burning from civil unrest. Oh yeah, it's going to get very ugly indeed, soon enough.

[M. T. Cross]

I have long wondered if this has in some ways already happened.

Lets look at the crusades.

"Soldiers of God" marching through Asia and Europe forcing the will of the Church on people. Do not worship who and when we tell you to worship and DIE.

Since then, radical Christians have maintained that same mentality, as have radical Muslims.

If this Sunday law does indeed occur, there will be many that will be affected other than SDA's. It in essence is making any religion other than "Christianity" illegal. ( I put Christianity in quotes there cause that versionof it really goes against the teachings of Christ as far as I see)

[ClubV12]

Sister White says two things that come to mind on that point Emptycross.

1. History will be repeated.

2. The last parts of Daniel had not yet been fulfilled in her time.

The current interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45 are relevant to our time today. BUT, Sister White also said the Lord could have returned in the mid 1800's and again in the late 1800's. Had that happened you can bet all the prophecies would have been fulfilled in some way at that time.

Is "now" the time, today? I don't know, I see the possibility. What if time continues to move forward? Then if not the present scenario, we will see a new scenario applicable to that time frame.

The end result of all this "waiting" is that some become wearied and say the Lord has delayed His return. I'll wait to get ready until it becomes more clear, I'll wait for a "convenient season" to call upon Him. It won't happen in MY lifetime, some will say.

For those who don't keep the lamps trimmed and burning, that convenient season never comes. Those who wait to get ready, will find it to late. Those who say it won't happen in my lifetime, may find their lives are required of them anyway. NOW is the preparation time, not some future event. It's always been that way, since Adam was looking for his first born son and wondering if he was going to be the Messiah. Get ready, stay ready, regardless of the appearance of prophecy. He WILL come, as a thief in the night, when we least expect it, to us personally or to the entire world.

[M. T. Cross]

There it is Club - I think you hit the nail on the head.

Believers in the Bible should be prepared regardless of whether it happens in their life time or not. If God indeed has a timeline set out for his return, I don't think anyone should spend so much time worrying about WHEN that might be. It will happen when it happens. Could be later today. Could be in 10000 years.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

. . .why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means?

Can't quite understand the above quote.

OK, so I read your other post. As I understand it, you're saying there WILL be a law that forces everyone to go to church on Sunday ? But you would at least agree with me that if such a thing will happen, it won't be in our lifetime, as society has moved in exactly the other direction ?

So, to clarify my other points, some questions.

1 - if I worship God exactly the same as the SDA, and believe the same things about Him, but go to church on Sunday ( or Monday, or any other day ), am I saved ?

2 - what is the mark of the beast ?

3 - how will a scripture about people not being able to buy bread be fulfilled in a law that makes people go to church on Sunday ?

[fccool]

Quote:

1 - if I worship God exactly the same as the SDA, and believe the same things about Him, but go to church on Sunday ( or Monday, or any other day ), am I saved ?

According to SDA theology, in the end times, no.

Quote:

2 - what is the mark of the beast ?

According to SDA doctrine, it's Sunday worship as a form of allegiance to the beast, which is the Church/State power.

Quote:

3 - how will a scripture about people not being able to buy bread be fulfilled in a law that makes people go to church on Sunday ?

The speculation is that if you don't worship on Sunday, you will not have money to buy or sell. You will be disqualified, or discriminated against... something of the sort.

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

1 - if I worship God exactly the same as the SDA, and believe the same things about Him, but go to church on Sunday ( or Monday, or any other day ), am I saved ?

According to SDA theology, in the end times, no.

[phkrause]

Sister White says two things that come to mind on that point Emptycross.

1. History will be repeated.

2. The last parts of Daniel had not yet been fulfilled in her time.

The current interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45 are relevant to our time today. BUT, Sister White also said the Lord could have returned in the mid 1800's and again in the late 1800's. Had that happened you can bet all the prophecies would have been fulfilled in some way at that time.

Is "now" the time, today? I don't know, I see the possibility. What if time continues to move forward? Then if not the present scenario, we will see a new scenario applicable to that time frame.

The end result of all this "waiting" is that some become wearied and say the Lord has delayed His return. I'll wait to get ready until it becomes more clear, I'll wait for a "convenient season" to call upon Him. It won't happen in MY lifetime, some will say.

For those who don't keep the lamps trimmed and burning, that convenient season never comes. Those who wait to get ready, will find it to late. Those who say it won't happen in my lifetime, may find their lives are required of them anyway. NOW is the preparation time, not some future event. It's always been that way, since Adam was looking for his first born son and wondering if he was going to be the Messiah. Get ready, stay ready, regardless of the appearance of prophecy. He WILL come, as a thief in the night, when we least expect it, to us personally or to the entire world.

[M. T. Cross]

There it is Club - I think you hit the nail on the head.

Believers in the Bible should be prepared regardless of whether it happens in their life time or not. If God indeed has a timeline set out for his return, I don't think anyone should spend so much time worrying about WHEN that might be. It will happen when it happens. Could be later today. Could be in 10000 years.

I will have all note that I hereby agreed with Club on an issue.

[phkrause]

I will have all note that I hereby agreed with Club on an issue.

LOL EC, I'm wondering if its progress on his part or yours. LOL

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I will have all note that I hereby agreed with Club on an issue.

LOL EC, I'm wondering if its progress on his part or yours. LOL

Both?

[phkrause]

LOL EC, I'm wondering if its progress on his part or yours. LOL

Both?

[fccool]

Quote:

So does this mean I can go on Sunday now, but not then ? Why will doing the same thing suddenly become different ? If I am compelled then, but can choose now, doesn't that make my Sunday worship today even worse ?

No, that's not the idea. The idea is not that you go on Sunday, but that you observe Sabbath as a commandment. SDA position is that Sabbath, just like the rest of the 10 are still intact. If it's wrong to steal, and it's wrong to take Lord's name in vain ... it's wrong to break Sabbath. In the OT, the Sabbath is clearly outlined as the 7th day.

Quote:

So how is that a mark received on the hands and head ? Why would the most Satanic thing I can do, be to go to church on the wrong day, rather than not go at all ? What about people who don't go at all, will they then be saved ?

The right hand in the Bible is the symbol for effort, or work. There are people who will accept the mark with their actions.

The forehead is the Biblical symbol for thoughts, in which case the mark on the forehead and the hand is a symbolic meaning for both thoughts and actions.

Quote:

I can see the SDA trying to make this fit their views, but how could that work ? How could I not have money if I don't go to church on Sunday ?

The idea is less individual and more global according to SDA speculations, although it is a very confusing topic that SDA pastors tend to avoid, and some will tell you that they don't know how it's going to tie in.

Some speculate that there will be some sort of cashless system that will require a mandatory attendance scans to the churches of your liking. If you miss the church service enough, you get penalized, or your bank account becomes inaccessible.

Quote:

What sort of system would need to be built, at what cost, to track who goes to church on Sunday, and how would it be the first huge government program of this sort that no-one could find a way around ?

Personally, I don't see how it is possible to control millions of people in such a way, but SDA position is that there will be a false coming of Christ that will convince people to do all of these things, including controlling each other.

So, false Christ would come and trick people into following Sunday and establish laws that would monitor the dissidents. I've heard that version before.

[ClubV12]

We have had "blue laws" in this country for decades. They don't mean you HAVE to go to church, you just can't buy and sell some good at some places. In some cases they also mean you can be aressted for working on Sunday. Mowing the grass, putting a roof on your house or whatever. They DON'T mean you have to "worship" or go to "church".

A mark in the hand, in my opinion, means you accept the law and will follow it, whether you like it or not. A mark in the head means you totally accept it, will turn in your neighbor if you see him doing work on Sunday and likely YOU will go to church on Sunday as well.

Here's the thing about prophecy, "it happens"! The people of Noahs day said it wouldn't, they drown. Sunday WILL HAPPEN, I gave you one scenario where it could happen soon. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when. If it looks like it's "impossible", reconsider Noah. It sure didn't look like rain....

[BibleOnly]

We have had "blue laws" in this country for decades. They don't mean you HAVE to go to church, you just can't buy and sell some good at some places. In some cases they also mean you can be aressted for working on Sunday. Mowing the grass, putting a roof on your house or whatever. They DON'T mean you have to "worship" or go to "church".

[12tribes]

Another question based on discussions with SDA members. Does the SDA really think that 'blue laws' will culminate in a law that people have to worship God on Sunday, and that going to church on a Sunday is the mark of the beast ? If so, if people who go to church on a Sunday have the mark of the beast, I assume anyone who does not go to church on the Sabbath is not saved ? In which case, why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means ?

I don't think that it is just about Sunday worship but, outlawing Sabbath worship. The issue will be over worship, those who worship the beast receive a mark, those who worship God will receive the seal of God.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Another question based on discussions with SDA members. Does the SDA really think that 'blue laws' will culminate in a law that people have to worship God on Sunday, and that going to church on a Sunday is the mark of the beast ? If so, if people who go to church on a Sunday have the mark of the beast, I assume anyone who does not go to church on the Sabbath is not saved ? In which case, why do SDA members preach unity of the churches and letting God decide who is and isn't saved, as if we can't really know what salvation means ?

I don't think that it is just about Sunday worship but, outlawing Sabbath worship. The issue will be over worship, those who worship the beast receive a mark, those who worship God will receive the seal of God.

But worshipping the beast is, in your mind, synonymous with worshipping God, but on the wrong day, right ? What about people who do not worship God at all ? Why is it that I can go to church on Sunday now, but in the end times, doing the same thing would condemn my soul ?

[12tribes]

But worshipping the beast is, in your mind, synonymous with worshipping God, but on the wrong day, right ? What about people who do not worship God at all ? Why is it that I can go to church on Sunday now, but in the end times, doing the same thing would condemn my soul ?

Revelation 13:8

(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[12tribes]

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Revelation 13:8

(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [/quote']

Is that a yes or a no ? You seem to be saying that worshipping the beast means to worship God on the wrong day. Aren't you ?

[12tribes]

Cain and Abel both worshiped God, one did it according to God's way the other his own. It is a false worship, one the outside they appear to worship God but on the inside is something else. They appear to worship God but in reality will lead away from God. If you read Rev 13 you will see the commandments they break.

Revelation 13:4

(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5

(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This is a small sample, you can also see that this power takes the place of Christ.

Revelation 13:2-3

(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:5

(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Christ received His power from the Father and died and was resurrected. Also Christ's ministry was 3.5 years while this beast is for 3.5 prophetic years. They do this to get worship to lead people away from God. Worship is mentioned 8 times in Rev 13 & i4. Do you think it is a coincidence that it is mentioned 8 times?