What Must We Be And How?

[Gibs]

There is a serious mistake being made in the Salvation issue. Sin and rebellion must not and will not raise up again in the Kingdom of God. He must insure that this never happens and yet allow us to be totally free. There is an imbedding into our Souls that will for eternity make that a surity for Him to see in us. Since we are to be totally free this then makes it a great part we must take a hold of. We of ourselves alone cannot do it but He joins with the ones who desire to be of Him and put away all inclinations to sin.

A destructive teaching has come into Christendom that is keeping most from ever being able to come and be a safe subject to save.

On Satan taking over this thing of what has come into Christendom even before our time of extreme liberality is the one that will keep the lions share of people out of the Kingdom of God. We must be fitted now to be safe to take into the kingdom of heaven that sin and rebellion will not raise up again. It must be embedded in our soul to always be with of and for our God and Saviour and that resolve so imbedded there that He can see we are a safe subject to save. Then and only then can we be saved, this imbedding into our souls must be done now by us, it is not something He can or will do for us. We must of our will take hold of the power and the way he has made, a full and unconditional surrender of self and a take up of His Divine Nature, He in us.

Just one of EGW's statement on this and we don't need her statements to prove this as it is solid Bible doctrine. Those of non SDA roots here I will in a comment lay out the same teaching from the KJV Bible.

"Satan made stronger attacks upon Christ than he will ever make upon us. There was much at stake with him, whether Christ or himself should be conqueror. If Christ resisted his most powerful temptations, and Satan did not succeed in leading Him to sin, he knew that he must lose his power, and finally be punished with everlasting destruction. Therefore Satan worked with mighty power to lead Christ to do a wrong action, for then he would gain advantage over Him. . . . You can never be tempted in so determined and cruel manner as was our Saviour. Satan was upon His path every moment.

Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

Do you not see Christ can't make us sinless as then we would be androids, no mind of our own, not then free moral agents. In order for us to be taken into the Kingdom safely we must now in this life imbed in our souls the commitment to die of self and realize His way must be our way and we will to be totally with Him fully not a shred or tittle withheld.

The victory is up to us and the eternal Kingdom is at stake.

Will you take up the way he has made. He in you is the victory.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

There is a serious mistake being made in the Salvation issue. Sin and rebellion must not and will not raise up again in the Kingdom of God. He must insure that this never happens and yet allow us to be totally free. There is an imbedding into our Souls that will for eternity make that a surity for Him to see in us. Since we are to be totally free this then makes it a great part we must take a hold of. We of ourselves alone cannot do it but He joins with the ones who desire to be of Him and put away all inclinations to sin.

A destructive teaching has come into Christendom that is keeping most from ever being able to come and be a safe subject to save.

On Satan taking over this thing of what has come into Christendom even before our time of extreme liberality is the one that will keep the lions share of people out of the Kingdom of God. We must be fitted now to be safe to take into the kingdom of heaven that sin and rebellion will not raise up again. It must be embedded in our soul to always be with of and for our God and Saviour and that resolve so imbedded there that He can see we are a safe subject to save. Then and only then can we be saved, this imbedding into our souls must be done now by us, it is not something He can or will do for us. We must of our will take hold of the power and the way he has made, a full and unconditional surrender of self and a take up of His Divine Nature, He in us.

Just one of EGW's statement on this and we don't need her statements to prove this as it is solid Bible doctrine. Those of non SDA roots here I will in a comment lay out the same teaching from the KJV Bible.

"Satan made stronger attacks upon Christ than he will ever make upon us. There was much at stake with him, whether Christ or himself should be conqueror. If Christ resisted his most powerful temptations, and Satan did not succeed in leading Him to sin, he knew that he must lose his power, and finally be punished with everlasting destruction. Therefore Satan worked with mighty power to lead Christ to do a wrong action, for then he would gain advantage over Him. . . . You can never be tempted in so determined and cruel manner as was our Saviour. Satan was upon His path every moment.

Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

Do you not see Christ can't make us sinless as then we would be androids, no mind of our own, not then free moral agents. In order for us to be taken into the Kingdom safely we must now in this life imbed in our souls the commitment to die of self and realize His way must be our way and we will to be totally with Him fully not a shred or tittle withheld.

The victory is up to us and the eternal Kingdom is at stake.

Will you take up the way he has made?

He in you is the victory.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Yes.

"9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."(Rom 10:9)

"It seemed so simple at first until I went to church and talked to someone. . ."

Q.E.D.

[Gerr]

Was the thief an overcomer? Was he saved?

[Gibs]

Gerry, You got to know that thief made the commintment and was totally surrendered as one thinks seriousley and fast when death is emminent. He had surrendered all, there is no doubt to me, as the Lord cannot take any liability into the kingdom to have this thing happen all over again. Those who don't won't.

You must know Jesus could see in His heart, soul that full commitment was made and embedded there.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[ClubV12]

The theif is the most profound illustration of righteousness by faith that I see in the bible.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

It does not tell the requirements for salvation espcially to ones looking for a false smooth way out which is not the saving gospel. It is made an easy way out of not having any part to do in the heart. I repeat here as to Gerry above that Christ could read His heart and saw that full surrender and commitment was embedded there and would be a safe subject to take into the Kingdom, He will not take one into it that is not an overcomer you can know for sure. Sin and rebellion can not and will not be in ANY ONE He takes into His Kingdom.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[ClubV12]

I take it you have not read much on what Jones, Wagoneer and Ellen White had to say on this most important of subjects, righteousness by faith.

I love the law, I love talking about it, living it, applying it my life. But I know at the end of the day two things:

1. It won't lead to salvation, only accepting His righteousness can do that. This is the only way we can become a "free man".

2. Accepting His righteousness right now, as the thief did, we can experience that freedom in Christ, that peace, that joy that comes from knowing Him.

As a result, the law will take care of itself. You will stuggle in vain to understand the requirements of the law if you don't see it through the eyes of the cross and the sacrifice He made on our behalf.

[Gibs]

ClubV12, You bet I've read it and most all twist it all wrong, the way He made is very easy but there is a part man must do on his own that Christ cannot do for him. Surrender all and not anything at all held back and commit and imbed his will to forever do His, Jeus Christ's will. It is not as most want to make it,

"Believe, Only Believe" EGW speaks to all who will hear here,

"From the pulpits of today the words are uttered: "Believe, only believe. Have faith in Christ; you have nothing to do with the old law, only trust in Christ." How different is this from the words of the apostle who declares that faith without works is dead. He says, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). We must have that faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Many seek to substitute a superficial faith for uprightness of life and think through this to obtain salvation. {FW 89.2}

Self-righteousness is the danger of this age; it separates the soul from Christ. Those who trust to their own righteousness cannot understand how salvation comes through Christ. They call sin righteousness and righteousness sin. They have no appreciation of the evil of transgression, no understanding of the terror of the law; for they do not respect God's moral standard. The reason there are so many spurious conversions in these days is that there is so low an appreciation of the law of God. Instead of God's standard of righteousness, men have erected a standard of their own by which to measure character. They see through a glass darkly and present false ideas of sanctification to the people, thus encouraging egotism, pride and self-righteousness. The doctrine of sanctification advocated by many is full of deception, because it is flattering to the natural heart; but the kindest thing that can be preached to the sinner is the truth of the binding claims of the law of God. Faith and works must go hand in hand; for faith without works is dead, being alone". {FW 96.3}

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[ClubV12]

Preaching the law is worthy and necessary, it should also be balanced with grace, as we see it presented in the scriptures and through Ellen Whites work.

The questions are: How do we see the law? How do we keep the law? How do we balance the law and grace?

"Those who trust to their own righteousness cannot understand how salvation comes through Christ. They call sin righteousness and righteousness sin. They have no appreciation of the evil of transgression, no understanding of the terror of the law; for they do not respect God's moral standard." FW 96

We cannot trust our own righteousness. We must see and comprehend the evil of transgression. We must acknowledge the unbending, unswerving demands of the law. We must respect God's moral standard. How? By beholding Jesus on the cross. The law demanded death, there is no escape, somebody had to pay the price. When we see the cost of violating the law, the death of God's Son, our souls will awaken to the terror of the law. Laws that God Himself could not ignore, our standard is no less.

"I have attended all but two morning meetings. At eight o’clock Brother Jones speaks upon the subject of justification by faith, and great interest is manifested. There is a growth in faith and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. There are quite a number who have not had an opportunity to hear upon this subject before, but they are taking it in, and are being fed with large morsels from the Lord’s table. {3BIO 432.2}

The universal testimony from those who have spoken has been that this message of light and truth which has come to our people is just the truth for this time, and wherever they go among the churches, light, and relief, and the blessing of God is sure to come in. We have a feast of fat things, and when we see souls grasping the light we are rejoiced."

White, A. L. (1984; 2002). Ellen G. White: The Lonely Years, 1876-1891 (Vol. 3); Ellen G. White Biography, Volume 3; The Lonely Years (432)

Keeping the law without reverence, love and an understanding of the cost of our salvation is nothing more than following tradition. The law MUST spring from a heart of love. Make your first work a solem plea that the Lord may grant you a love for the law. Believe you HAVE that love and seek to follow Him in every way. By putting your faith into action, your prayer will be answered!

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You keep bringing up, "The questions are: How do we see the law? How do we keep the law? How do we balance the law and grace"?

I keep telling you of ourselves we cannot and will not, but Christ in you is the answer, He is your strength and stay. It must be kept and you can't get around that but you'll need His Divine Nature in you to do it. No we do not trust in ourselves, we trust in Him who can and will dwell within but a full and complete surrender is a must which most will not do. Until that is done there will not be any overcoming done by that person. He will never be any stronger that his mere self which is no strength against the wiles of Satan and his angels.

He who won't surrender all and continues to believe there is no way for him to overcome will not and cannot. Only he who truly has faith and trust in Him who is the way and picks it up, His indwelling can and will. Paul made it clear, Christ in you is your only hope of glory.

That is the way He has made for any and all to escape and most will not take it. It is as this verse says,

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[Gibs]

Q.E.D.,

You just brought out one verse of what Paul states on the subject. The word in scripture "believe" incorporates more than what we take it as today. The devils believe you know for sure more solid than we can as they have been cast out of Heaven by Him and they tremble. So they are not saved and one needs to dig a little deeper and it is not hidden but is not wanted by the ones wanting to hear smooth things and have itching ears and they get what they want, a false theology, theory, presumption not based on truth. That is not true faith but presumption.

True faith, belief will have works, Christ in you does the works of overcoming and is a must and easily obtained by all and none can be kept away from it but only by his own unbelief.

Here is where we are today,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

"9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."(Rom 10:9)

"It seemed so simple at first until I went to church and talked to someone. . ."

Q.E.D.

This verse is true but vague. Acts 8 shows people who did both of these things and they WERE saved, when they received the Spirit.

[BibleOnly]

Was the thief an overcomer? Was he saved?

The Holy Spirit was not yet given, so if he was saved in the sense we mean it, it was by special dispensation from Jesus, and not something we can draw any sort of pattern from for us to follow.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

Read the answers I made to those you quote, you think I don't know what those verses mean? I do and it is not the complete gospel and I explaine it well to Gerry and Q E D and you like them, you want it just believe and you are saved. To truly believe is to have faith in the way he has prepared but that don't suit you and most but it is not the saving gospel, That is not the end of the story, you need to read Paul and not pick and choose. Please go back and read what I have posted and answered to them.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly,

Read the answers I made to those you quote, you think I don't know what those verses mean? I do and it is not the complete gospel and I explaine it well to Gerry and Q E D and you like them, you want it just believe and you are saved. To truly believe is to have faith in the way he has prepared but that don't suit you and most but it is not the saving gospel, That is not the end of the story, you need to read Paul and not pick and choose. Please go back and read what I have posted and answered to them.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

But these verses don't contradict me at all. I agree that 'just believing' is not salvation. The word in the Greek means a lot more than mental assent, and even the demons believe. Believing and receiving the Spirit is the start of salvation and then we need to walk in the Spirit, remain unspotted from the world and not be fooled by false doctrines and men's ideas.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

I am glad you see that. His Blessing to you. Yes the fruit of TRULY believing is making that full surrender of self and nothing withheld and our will submerged in His, then we are one in Him.

I sure love the following two verses,

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

Yes, I agree with all of those verses. The Bible also says :

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

This makes no sense if we 'know He has given us of His Spirit' because we believe we are in Him.

[Gibs]

Right on, we can know when we have the fruit,

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

Not sure what you think this verse proves ? It doesn't contradict anything I've said...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Was the thief an overcomer? Was he saved?

The Holy Spirit was not yet given, so if he was saved in the sense we mean it, it was by special dispensation from Jesus, and not something we can draw any sort of pattern from for us to follow.

Oh, He could make exceptions for the thief but not for me? The God who is no respecter of persons?

What do I need or do so that I can have that "special dispensation?" Were any in that list in Heb 11 saved without the Holy Spirit?

[BibleOnly]

Gerry, I agree. I don't think anyone was given any special dispensation. My point is, if people want to disagree, they can't go on to extrapolate doctrine from it, what Jesus did in one instance, does not change what the Bible says in general.

[Gibs]

It is amazing how people today with this "new theology" will twist and try to make out there is nothing a man has to do on his part to be one of the overcomers. Jesus could see the heart of the thief on the cross and he could see his conversion was complete. You take that to mean all you need do is just believe in Jesus and you are saved.

No it takes more than that, ALL must be surrendered and nothing withheld. This is the reason very few today will ever find that strait and narrow gate and way. It is too narrow for that understanding to get through with not put away sins.

From the time of conversion and repentance you are faithfully forgiven of past sin but not of future sins. The continuing in sin must be put away and then the subject becomes an overcomer. Too many believe they are forgiven once and for all in the past and in the future. Until you get hold of His power in you, you will fall back in the old wallow and will need to get on your knees again. It must not continue that way, you must become an overcomer at some point or you are caught up a sinner as it proves His Spirit isn't in you if you continue in sin.

Paul made it clear,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Will you be dead to sin or not? It's up to you, you can be, it is a must.

Paul also said, Christ in you is your hope.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

It's time to get off the feel good new theology teaching and get serious.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

" Jesus could see the heart of the thief on the cross and he could see his conversion was complete."

That's actually not possible, but, whatever He saw, it has no bearing on the Gospel in the Gospel age.

[Gerr]

Gerry, I agree. I don't think anyone was given any special dispensation. My point is, if people want to disagree, they can't go on to extrapolate doctrine from it, what Jesus did in one instance, does not change what the Bible says in general.

What Jesus did for the thief, He is willing to do inorder to save anyone. That is the gospel.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly, I do know Jesus can see when the heart is right as he saw Judas heart and the woman at the well and there is more instances.

Another thing for all to realize here on this subject is that the heart set at death or sleep of this life is exactly the same at the first or second resurrection, whichever one, a person is raised at. You all know and I know Jesus knows the heart and soul so He knows which to raise at the first resurrection.

Now is the time while we still live is to surrender all, nothing withheld and get His indwelling Spirit and He knows when He enters us. Then is when we have the heart set, our will merged in His will and we are one with Him. You bet He knows that and it must be done by us, that is OUR part to do that He cannot do for us and have us to be free moral agents, subjects of His.

Then is when we become totally free men and women within His will. There is not one thing we desire to do outside of His will as His Will is also our will.

He knows when this is accomplished in us and that we will never ever raise up in sin and rebellion. Otherwise He would not be able to take one into His Kingdom He was not sure of to always be loyal never to turn back to the old wallow.

I've mentioned the term "new theology" here and I hadn't realized that many now are not old enough to know of it to be new. It wouldn't be a new theology to you as it is the only theology you've ever had. At least it wasn't very advanced in the SDA church until after around 1960 but it was around even in EGW's day as she spoke against it.

What each must do is the heart set, soul set, a real change of heart that will bear the fruit. That He cannot do for us.

It's time to get off the feel good new theology teaching and get serious.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!