What Must We Be And How?

[Gerr]

It is amazing how people today with this "new theology" will twist and try to make out there is nothing a man has to do on his part to be one of the overcomers. Jesus could see the heart of the thief on the cross and he could see his conversion was complete. You take that to mean all you need do is just believe in Jesus and you are saved.

That's all God requires - complete conversion, complete commitment, complete loyalty, complete trust, complete abiding, NOT perfect performance. Even if perfect performance were possible, that is NOT what saves you. It will NOT contribute one iota to merit your salvation.

The focus should be:

ESV | ‎Jn 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

ESV | ‎1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. ‎7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. ‎8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. ‎9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Abide and practice are the key words.

THAT should be the focus, not on achieving perfection.

"The character is revealed by the works, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." SC 58.

[Gibs]

Gerry,

The proof is in the pudding if you truly are abiding in Him, you will have put away your sin and are a new creature in Him and He in you.

If you are dead to the old sinning man you were, you no longer continuein sin.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does He ask us to do something that He hasn't enabled us to do? EGW speaks,

I post her view because she lived before this new age theology became so great and she saw the light on this,

"Success in this life, success in gaining the future life, depends upon a faithful, conscientious attention to the little things. Perfection is seen in the least, no less than in the greatest, of the works of God. The hand that hung the worlds in space is the hand that wrought with delicate skill the lilies of the field. And as God is perfect in His sphere, so we are to be perfect in ours. The symmetrical structure of a strong, beautiful character is built up by individual acts of duty. And faithfulness should characterize our life in the least as well as in the greatest of its details". {BEcho, June 18, 1894 par. 8}

Here is where we are today,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

Do you not see Christ can't make us sinless as then we would be androids, no mind of our own, not then free moral agents. In order for us to be taken into the Kingdom safely we must now in this life imbed in our souls the commitment to die of self and realize His way must be our way and we will to be totally with Him fully not a shred or tittle withheld.

The victory is up to us and the eternal Kingdom is at stake.

Will you take up the way he has made. He in you is the victory.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Gerry, I agree. I don't think anyone was given any special dispensation. My point is, if people want to disagree, they can't go on to extrapolate doctrine from it, what Jesus did in one instance, does not change what the Bible says in general.

What Jesus did for the thief, He is willing to do inorder to save anyone. That is the gospel.

No, not really. Jesus came to give salvation, yes. But His pattern involve His having to die to send the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Spirit could not have been given to the thief, nor does the thief, who died before the Spirit could be given, represent a pattern.

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly, I do know Jesus can see when the heart is right as he saw Judas heart and the woman at the well and there is more instances.

Another thing for all to realize here on this subject is that the heart set at death or sleep of this life is exactly the same at the first or second resurrection, whichever one, a person is raised at. You all know and I know Jesus knows the heart and soul so He knows which to raise at the first resurrection.

Yes, I agree. I do think that we can see when someone is converted, the Bible says this. But, that is why I would prefer to say, whatever happened to the thief is between him and God and will be revealed in the first or second resurrection. The only risk is to take this story and attack the rest of the Bible with our assumptions based on it ( as I've seen many people do ).

[Gerr]

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit had been idle the whole time before Pentecost?

[BibleOnly]

Of course I am not. I am saying that while the Spirit moved to empower people to do God's Work before Pentecost, Jesus was clear that the infilling of the Spirit in the sense of salvation could not occur until His resurrection.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[Gibs]

I believe that many do not realize that He has given us power to do His bidding and He does. We just need to have faith to pick up on it. When one doesn't believe he can do a thing whatever it is and it is not hard at all, it's a lack of faith or he could do it.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

1 Cor 10:13 is about how God never tests or tempts us. And the important point is that He always makes a way of escape. No-one can say 'God tested me to make me stronger' or 'The Devil attacked me and I could not over come it'. James also says we are drawn of our own lusts and enticed.

Yes, overcoming is important, that's what it means to walk in the Spirit. Of course, this applies only to those who are born again, as does most of the New Testament.

[Gerr]

Gibs, I still haven't gotten a handle on what you mean by perfection. Just so we do not wind up talking past each and talking about two different things,kindly give me a definition of your conception of perfection.

[Gibs]

Well ole Satan is the temptor and all that he foists on man is what 1 Cor 10:13 is about. The way of escape is Christ in us the only hope we have of being the victor and it is free to all who will surrender all and trust and obey. I love those two songs, "I Surrender All" and "Trust and Obey". It wouldn't hurt a thing if they were sung in every service.

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

The Greek word often translated 'perfect' in the Bible means complete, and does not mean 'without flaw' as such.

[BibleOnly]

Well ole Satan is the temptor and all that he foists on man is what 1 Cor 10:13 is about. The way of escape is Christ in us the only hope we have of being the victor and it is free to all who will surrender all and trust and obey. I love those two songs, "I Surrender All" and "Trust and Obey". It wouldn't hurt a thing if they were sung in every service.

But the Bible says that we're drawn away by our own lusts and enticed. It says God will not tempt us, and if you read Job, the Devil can't do that without God's permission. Why else did he ask God every time ?

I guess this is somewhat semantic. The ideas that draw us away, they come from the devil, the father of lies. But, the devil doesn't send a stripper to try to entice you to cheat on your wife, just the idea that cheating on your wife would be OK, or at least, worth the risk.

[Gerr]

What did the Bible mean when it said:

ESV | ‎Ge 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” ‎2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

[BibleOnly]

What did the Bible mean when it said:

ESV | ‎Ge 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” ‎2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

I am certain of what it does not mean. It does not mean that the book of James in the Bible has lies in it.

Perhaps it means that God did do this in the Old Testament, but doesn't do it to His adoptive children in the New ? Perhaps this is because we're filled with the Holy Spirit and people in the OT were not ? I am offering conjecture, I don't think any NT verse explains this, but it does explain that God does not tempt or test the church.

[Gibs]

Gerry you ask,

Gibs, I still haven't gotten a handle on what you mean by perfection. Just so we do not wind up talking past each and talking about two different things,kindly give me a definition of your conception of perfection.

Well it is very simple. We are to walk as Jesus Christ walked this earth as one of us having to overcome as we do. He had our flesh as he was born of a woman around 4'000 yrs after the fall and so He not only had the Divine Nature of His Father but He also had our fallen nature. It this were not the case Satan would not have attempted to overcome Him. But Satan was jubilant as he believed he now had the advantage he needed since now He was but a man as one of us not to take any power but we can have to overcome Him.

Well like EGW says and it's true we can know, He had to endure more than we will ever have to. Satan knew his future depended on overcoming Him. Satan did not succeed.

Christ in us is the same power Christ had as it was the Father that was in Him and so Christ in you is the Father in you.

We actually have an advantage, Satan and all the fallen angels can see Christ's indwelling in you and know He has defeated them and there is no battle at all. Satan sees when you are steadfast in Christ and will not put Him out he steers clear. Christ in you is an impervious covering and continual strength.

That is the perfection we are to walk, the same as Jesus did and we can. It would be dangerous to fall back now at this late date into any of our old wallow and so we must abide in Him every moment is what I see from here on out and the end is very near.

If a slip back did happen, it is fast on the knees and deep repentance and sorrow, but to do so is to be avoided or it may be the loss of eternal life. Judgment begins at the house of God first and I'm not sure but the house is being measured.

On Christ in you, Jesus declared "I and my Father are one". And He also stated "I am the FIRST and the LAST".

Answer this, how many "firsts" can you have? JUST ONE! So really He and the Father are one. Remember He told Philip, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; ". Sure the Father was in Him.

Paul nailed the gospel hope, - Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Our only work in this is a work of faith, to surrender all nothing witheld and our will set to do His will and we are merged then one with Him and then we can walk the victorious walk exactly as He did there is not a shadow of a doubt.

Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

"Our only work in this is a work of faith, to surrender all nothing witheld and our will set to do His will and we are merged then one with Him and then we can walk the victorious walk exactly as He did there is not a shadow of a doubt."

I agree with this, faith is all we can offer, active faith that impacts on how we live.

But I disagree we need to live like Jesus did. Jesus was the only one to live a perfect life under the law. We're not called to do that, He did it so we would not have to.

[Gibs]

That's why He came as one of us to be our example and to show us the way and then shed His Blood and died for us that our past sin would be covered and all past who gave their hearts to Him. The time is short that men can be coming and be forgiven. The following verses means something to me,

Re 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

He can never take one into Heaven not willing and yet made able to anchor his soul in Him into His Kingdom. He is not going to make any an overcomer and all must be. Read these verses, Re 2:7 1Jo 5:5 Re 2:11 Re 2:17 Re 2:26 Re 3:5 Re 3:12 Re 21:7

Overcometh means one that did something. We can't get out of the fact there is something for us to do beyond the simple term believe. Many believe but will never give themselves and surrender all. Yes it is true faith that has the works of faith. When one don't believe he can, he just did himself in. We must know we can and with Him within it is absolutely a go do and be victorious.

None of us want to be in Heaven if all kinds are taken in there that have not forsaken all the old man and soon again becomes another world of sin and rebellion.

He has made the only way that possibly can be made and few, very few are finding it these last days.. The preached unto me smooth things has the greates part snowed in a deception of a false theology of salvation that is not of Him. Another way is cobbeled of man that is not the saving gospel.

This is why the last church is the "remnant church" as the remnant piece is a smaller piece in percentage of the peoples than the first. A remnant is a small piece of the original for sure.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Ah, that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, yes that is the Truth, His Word.

Lu 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Not able? Why? There is only one answer, they didn't have it right. Too much baggage of the world not left behind and the gate is too narrow for that to get through.

No one can ever convince me that we do not have to overcome as Jesus did. It just can not be gotten around and any other way tried will fail to get through that strait gate.

You say, "He did it so we would not have to". No!,He did it to show us it can be done as He did it as one of us with all our inclinations or He wouldn't be able to succour us.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

I fully agree, even the demons believe, and it's true that Jesus set an example for us, although we have to receive His spirit as He told us to, and not just 'believe' and then try to live the sort of life that He lived. The Bible says when Jesus comes, will He find faith on the earth, so it's clear He's coming for a remnant and not a huge number of people. Jesus said this also, narrow is that gate and few find it.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

Please read my post just above yours as you posted just a few seconds later than it and I had just answered your above post, I'm slow on the keyboard.

You say, "He did it so we would not have to". No!,He did it to show us it can be done as He did it as one of us with all our inclinations or He wouldn't be able to succour us.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!

[BibleOnly]

That is the post I was replying to :-)

[BibleOnly]

Well, of course, I need to keep remembering that I am being attacked by legalists all the time, so I should choose my words with more care. Of course we're not to live differently to Jesus in any obvious way, we simply need to keep the attitudes that He kept, but in the newness of life He bought for us, not in the law and the covenant He had to live under.

This is too complex a topic to cover in a brief post, but my point is that Jesus didn't come just to give us an example to follow, He lived a life we could never live, even today with the Spirit, and He did it so we can have the Spirit. The Bible says we examine ourselves during the communion and that we confess our sins. Jesus lived without sin. We still can't do that, and it's foolish to try, especially without the Holy Spirit.

[Gerr]

Of course I am not. I am saying that while the Spirit moved to empower people to do God's Work before Pentecost, Jesus was clear that the infilling of the Spirit in the sense of salvation could not occur until His resurrection.

Salvation could not occur before the resurrection? Let's see. Enoch went to heaven without seeing death. So did Elijah. And Moses was resurrected and went to heaven, did they not?

Quote:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And consider this: NASB95 | ‎Ge 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

The Holy Spirit has been striving with sinners since the fall, so it seems to me that we have to take a closer look at what Jesus said and what He meant.

[Gerr]

Gerry you ask,

Gibs, I still haven't gotten a handle on what you mean by perfection. Just so we do not wind up talking past each and talking about two different things,kindly give me a definition of your conception of perfection.

Well it is very simple. We are to walk as Jesus Christ walked this earth as one of us having to overcome as we do. He had our flesh as he was born of a woman around 4'000 yrs after the fall and so He not only had the Divine Nature of His Father but He also had our fallen nature. It this were not the case Satan would not have attempted to overcome Him. But Satan was jubilant as he believed he now had the advantage he needed since now He was but a man as one of us not to take any power but we can have to overcome Him.

What I hear you saying then is that we to reach the level of total sinless perfection just like Jesus?

By "fallen nature", you mean that when Jesus was born, He had a flesh with sinful passions screaming for expression? If you don't believe this, think of a baby born to a drug addicted mother.

Quote:

We actually have an advantage, Satan and all the fallen angels can see Christ's indwelling in you and know He has defeated them and there is no battle at all. Satan sees when you are steadfast in Christ and will not put Him out he steers clear. Christ in you is an impervious covering and continual strength.

Advantage over whom? No battle at all? WOW!!!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gerry you ask,

Gibs, I still haven't gotten a handle on what you mean by perfection. Just so we do not wind up talking past each and talking about two different things,kindly give me a definition of your conception of perfection.

Well it is very simple. We are to walk as Jesus Christ walked this earth as one of us having to overcome as we do. He had our flesh as he was born of a woman around 4'000 yrs after the fall and so He not only had the Divine Nature of His Father but He also had our fallen nature. It this were not the case Satan would not have attempted to overcome Him. But Satan was jubilant as he believed he now had the advantage he needed since now He was but a man as one of us not to take any power but we can have to overcome Him.

ESV | ‎Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

NIV84 | ‎Heb 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Notice that the "has perfected for all time" is past tense. Why do you try to achieve something that is already given to you?

[Gibs]

Yes Gerry, He was the perfect sacrifice that only needed to be offered once and for all time past and future. From Adam to Him and then from Him to the last one to come to him down here to almost the end.

We are only made perfect when we take it up, yes in true repentance your slate is made clean for all in your past but you now are told by Him, go sin no more. Well take up His Divine Nature and you can do just that as He told you to do, so it is expected. If there wasn't anymore for you to do He wouldn't need to tell you go sin no more. FACT IS WE ARE NOT TO CONTINUE IN SIN AFTER THAT!

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Come on, Come on you all and read these verses, you are given what is needed, stop refusing Him.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Eph 6:10 ¶ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

You may be weak but he is strong and will come and dwell within and be all power that is needed and more to over come sin in your life.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Again your and my and alls hope of Glory is Jesus Christ in you, there is no other way, we must take it up or die the eternal death.

You say, "He did it so we would not have to". No!,He did it to show us it can be done as He did it as one of us with all our inclinations or He wouldn't be able to succour us.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To All, Please read my original thread and do not take this off subject as it is too Important!