What Must We Be And How?

[Dr. Rich]

I thought so too, that everyone knew how and why the bible was invented or put together, but apparently not. I am glad you have researched this as not many have.

Please point out what Peter wrote about as I can't find anything that Peter wrote himself as Peter admitted that he was not educated in reading and writing. Yes, Peter may of had Mark write for him, but 1st and 2nd Peter could not have been written by the apostle Peter because Peter had long died before these letters became known. And becaue of the writing style, the two letters were not written by the same person. Peter also had Climintine (see the Pseudo Climintine Homily's--16 thru 19) write what Peter said and did when Peter was with him, but this was left out of the NEW Testiment because if it had been placed in the NT, then all of Paul's writings would of had to be done away with.

Oh, perhaps you didn't know, but they NOW have computers that can tell whether or not something was written by the same person or not. It all has to do with the way, style and stuff like that. These computers proved that 1st and 2nd Peter were not written by the same person.

[Gerr]

I think everyone knows when and how the Bible was collated. The point is, you don't believe God has any power to guide this process, regardless of who did it.

I don't think the two witnesses were the old and new testament, but the fact that it was written before they existed, proves nothing for your case. Many things that Peter wrote of had not yet happened, how else could the Bible refer to itself this way ?

How could this refer to two books that generally come as one ? So much for Ellen White....

ESV | ‎Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

ESV | ‎Re 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony [Gk martyria = witness of Jesus.

ESV | ‎Re 19:10 For the testimony [Gk martyria - witness] of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

ESV | ‎Is 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,

[Gerr]

EGW used the words "overcome as Christ overcame" well over a hundred times in her writings,

ESV | ‎1 Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

ESV | ‎Ge 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

ESV | ‎Ac 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” ‎31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

ESV | ‎Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

ESV | ‎Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ‎9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[Dr. Rich]

Rev. 19:13 "...and His Name is called The Word of God."

Rev. 19:10 "..Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethern WHO HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS; worship God, FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS (present tense) the spirit of prophecy (all small letters)."

[BibleOnly]

That's for the benefit of Adventists. Now for you, I can give the Bible passage:

I did not disagree with what was said, it's just telling that 'for Adventists' you quote EW and not the Bible.

[BibleOnly]

Rev. 19:13 "...and His Name is called The Word of God."

Rev. 19:10 "..Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethern WHO HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS; worship God, FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS (present tense) the spirit of prophecy (all small letters)."

and what is the testimony of Jesus, exactly ?

[Gibs]

Just to get back to the original post and it stands as there has been no testimony to dispell it,

There is a serious mistake being made in the Salvation issue. Sin and rebellion must not and will not raise up again in the Kingdom of God. He must insure that this never happens and yet allow us to be totally free. There is an imbedding into our Souls that will for eternity make that a surity for Him to see in us. Since we are to be totally free this then makes it a great part we must take a hold of. We of ourselves alone cannot do it but He joins with the ones who desire to be of Him and put away all inclinations to sin.

A destructive teaching has come into Christendom that is keeping most from ever being able to come and be a safe subject to save.

On Satan taking over this thing of what has come into Christendom even before our time of extreme liberality is the one that will keep the lions share of people out of the Kingdom of God. We must be fitted now to be safe to take into the kingdom of heaven that sin and rebellion will not raise up again. It must be embedded in our soul to always be with of and for our God and Saviour and that resolve so imbedded there that He can see we are a safe subject to save. Then and only then can we be saved, this imbedding into our souls must be done now by us, it is not something He can or will do for us. We must of our will take hold of the power and the way he has made, a full and unconditional surrender of self and a take up of His Divine Nature, He in us.

Just one of EGW's statement on this and we don't need her statements to prove this as it is solid Bible doctrine. Those of non SDA roots here I will in a comment lay out the same teaching from the KJV Bible.

"Satan made stronger attacks upon Christ than he will ever make upon us. There was much at stake with him, whether Christ or himself should be conqueror. If Christ resisted his most powerful temptations, and Satan did not succeed in leading Him to sin, he knew that he must lose his power, and finally be punished with everlasting destruction. Therefore Satan worked with mighty power to lead Christ to do a wrong action, for then he would gain advantage over Him. . . . You can never be tempted in so determined and cruel manner as was our Saviour. Satan was upon His path every moment.

Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

Do you not see Christ can't make us sinless as then we would be androids, no mind of our own, not then free moral agents. In order for us to be taken into the Kingdom safely we must now in this life imbed in our souls the commitment to die of self and realize His way must be our way and we will to be totally with Him fully not a shred or tittle withheld.

The victory is up to us and the eternal Kingdom is at stake.

Will you take up the way he has made. He in you is the victory.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Please keep on topic.________________________

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Rev. 19:13 "...and His Name is called The Word of God."

Rev. 19:10 "..Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethern WHO HOLD THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS; worship God, FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS (present tense) the spirit of prophecy (all small letters)."

and what is the testimony of Jesus, exactly ?

Read John 18:37. The testimony of Jesus is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. It is the same thing as the food that will be given to those who are hungry at the event found in Matthew 24:45.

It is NOT the words of Luke, Paul or anyone that never knew Jesus dead or alive and that includes EGW.

Question? How do I know this? Because we are told to test the spirits. How? By using the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. Jesus prayed for those who would read those words and believe in Him and obey those words. He did not pray for anyone reading the words of others. Thats the simple truth. One will NEVER become confused by the words of Jesus! On the otherhand, the truth worshipers can only become ONE with God by the words of Jesus!

[BibleOnly]

"Question? How do I know this? Because we are told to test the spirits."

Who wrote that ? I thought it was Paul ? I am sure it's in one of the letters, or did Jesus say it also ? Where does it say we should test only by the words of Jesus ?

[Dr. Rich]

"Question? How do I know this? Because we are told to test the spirits."

Who wrote that ? I thought it was Paul ? I am sure it's in one of the letters, or did Jesus say it also ? Where does it say we should test only by the words of Jesus ?

1John 4:1 "...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

1John 2:19 "They (false apostles and prophets) went out from us (the disciples of Jesus) but they were NOT REALLY of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

Gal. 1:11-12 "...the gospel which was preached by me is NOT according to man (the disciples), for I neither received it from man (disciples) nor was I taught it,, but I received it through a vision/revelation of [alleged} Jesus Christ." (No one to witness this other than Paul himself).

Gal. 2:14 "But when I saw that they (disciples) were not straightforward about the truth (what Paul thought was the truth) of the gospel (Paul's gospel, not the gospel Jesus said and taught or what the disciples taught)..."

Gal. 5:18 "But if you are led by the spirit, you are NOT under the Law." Here Paul clearly taught lawlessness as the spirit he was following was clearly not the same as the Holy Spirit.

1John 3:4 "Everyone who practices sin also practices LAWLESSNESS and sin IS LAWLESSNESS."

Rom. 6:14 "...We are not under law, but under grace." That my friends is teaching lawlessness.

[BibleOnly]

Once again, [that is] beyond ridiculous. I am not bothering with this any more, it is simply beneath me. If you honestly believe that Rom 6:14 preaches lawlessness when Paul says:

Rom 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

in the same chapter, then you [did not read or understand what you read].

[Gerr]

Gerry & pkrause and all,

For sure not one of us ever had or can ever have "holy flesh" for one committed sin does away with that and cannot be reversed.

As long as you don't have holy flesh, you are still indwelt by sin and therefore NOT perfect.

And I still haven't seen a clear definition by you of what kind of sins we are to overcome.Until you make a distinction between willful/intentional and un-intentional sins, and recognize that Jesus was not exactly like you, you will stumble on this point.

[Gerr]

"Question? How do I know this? Because we are told to test the spirits."

Who wrote that ? I thought it was Paul ? I am sure it's in one of the letters, or did Jesus say it also ? Where does it say we should test only by the words of Jesus ?

If you listen to Dr. Rich, he'll tell you that Paul was a false teacher or even worse, even though Peter testified thus:

ESV | ‎2 Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, ‎16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

See? Peter was acquainted with Paul's writing and put them on the same level as "the other Scriptures." What Scriptures was Peter referring to? It cannot be anything else other than the OT scriptures.

[Gerr]

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Temptation and rebellion have to do with the will. They have nothing to do with unintentional transgressions. I have not seen your answer to my question - If I miscalculate my taxes or tithe and shortchange the gov't or the church, am I toast?

[Gibs]

Gerry Cabalo

If you miscalculated your taxes or make a mistake unintentionally you just right it as soon as you find you did and it is no sin.

Once we have committed a sin we then have sinful flesh and then after being forgiven we would still have sinful flesh in this life from then to the end of it, even though we would never commit another one.

We can overcome sin in our lives now and we must as it is given us the way to do so. To refuse it is forfeiting our eternal life.

When we die, sleep of this life and when we are raised we will come back with the same bent to sin if it is not put away now. We must get it out of our heart and soul now or we will not be a subject He, Jesus can safely take into His Kingdom.

Put away your sin now before death or be a subject of the second ressurrection is the sad story.

Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

Do you not see Christ can't make us sinless as then we would be androids, no mind of our own, not then free moral agents. In order for us to be taken into the Kingdom safely we must now in this life imbed in our souls the commitment to die of self and realize His way must be our way and we will to be totally with Him fully not a shred or tittle withheld.

The victory is up to us and the eternal Kingdom is at stake.

Will you take up the way he has made. He in you is the victory.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Please keep on topic

[Gerr]

Gerry Cabalo

If you miscalculated your taxes or make a mistake unintentionally you just right it as soon as you find you did and it is no sin.

So are you saying that unintentional transgressions are not sins? That these are not imperfections?

Quote:

Once we have committed a sin we then have sinful flesh and then after being forgiven we would still have sinful flesh in this life from then to the end of it, even though we would never commit another one.

Sinless perfection but have sinful flesh? Isn't that an oxymoron? Never commit another sin but capable of making mistakes? Is that what you are saying? If so, then the perfection you are advocating may not be any different from the Bible perfection as I understand it. There is no question in my mind that intentional/willful transgressions have to be put away.

[Gibs]

We will have sinless flesh again when,

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

That has nothing to do with the fact you can and must be an overcomer and walk as Christ walked and you will not see it. He who don't want to and will not, cannot.

We are to walk perfect in our sphere as He is in His sphere. Don't you know that with God all things are possible? Christ in you is just that. Take hold of it and with His Divine Nature as he also had, you too can do all things, but you must quit refuseing Him.

It's your willingness to correct your mistakes that counts, are you willing?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

We will have sinless flesh again when,

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Agreed.

Quote:

That has nothing to do with the fact you can and must be an overcomer and walk as Christ walked and you will not see it.

Agreed.

We are to walk perfect in our sphere as He is in His sphere. Don't you know that with God all things are possible? Christ in you is just that. Take hold of it and with His Divine Nature as he also had, you too can do all things, but you must quit refuseing Him.

Agreed.

Quote:

It's your willingness to correct your mistakes that counts, are you willing?

This is the sticking point. As long as we are in this flesh that is indwelt by sin, there will never be an end to those mistakes because they are the product of an imperfect nature. The imperfection is inherent in the imperfect nature. That's why there has to be a change of nature.

Quote:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Amen!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

We will have sinless flesh again when,

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Agreed.

Agreed

Quote:

That has nothing to do with the fact you can and must be an overcomer and walk as Christ walked and you will not see it.

Agreed.

Agreed

We are to walk perfect in our sphere as He is in His sphere. Don't you know that with God all things are possible? Christ in you is just that. Take hold of it and with His Divine Nature as he also had, you too can do all things, but you must quit refuseing Him.

[Gerr]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?

[BibleOnly]

I personally think you're all straining at gnats.

I've certainly seen some here swallow camels

[Woody]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?

WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?

ARE you WHATTTTINNNNGG?

[Dr. Rich]

Do know the truth regarding income tax or are you just going to go along with the crowd because of peer pressure and fear? Same can be said about religion. Or, do you dare to be a "Daniel"?

[Gerr]

I personally think you're all straining at gnats.

I've certainly seen some here swallow camels

At the point of origin, error can run closely in parallel with truth. The point at issue is whether we are saved by the perfect righteousness of Christ all the way, or does our success in obeying God's will contribute in any way to one's salvation.

[Gerr]

Did I just see you agree with me?