What Must We Be And How?

[Gibs]

Woody,

None will be of that number that put on incorruption except for those of the first resurrection and to be in it you must be an overcomer, no other way about it. The scripture tells me they are the ones not hurt of the second death, those of the second resurrection. Here is that verse,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

There is something each must do that Jesus will not do for you. I will have EGW do the telling,

Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Do you not see Christ can't make us sinless as then we would be androids, no mind of our own, not then free moral agents. In order for us to be taken into the Kingdom safely we must now in this life imbed in our souls the commitment to die of self and realize His way must be our way and we will to be totally with Him fully not a shred or tittle withheld.

The victory is up to us and the eternal Kingdom is at stake.

Will you take up the way he has made. He in you is the victory.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I personally think you're all straining at gnats.

I've certainly seen some here swallow camels

At the point of origin, error can run closely in parallel with truth. The point at issue is whether we are saved by the perfect righteousness of Christ all the way, or does our success in obeying God's will contribute in any way to one's salvation.

This is somewhat semantic. When I received the Holy Spirit, then I was saved entirely by the grace of God. But, to remain saved, I need to walk in the Spirit. I'd say I do that in the strength that God gave me, given my inability to do it when I followed a gospel that did not have signs following. But, how do you differentiate from the point of view of an outside observer, if my actions are mine or done in the strength of God ? A Christian has to walk in the Spirit, to stay saved, and if we fail to do that, we can find ourselves worse off than we were before. But, when Paul talks about examining ourselves during the communion time, I believe he's saying we should recognise where we fall short and commit to doing better, I don't think that to be a Christian you can never make a mistake. If we sin wilfully, the bible says, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

[joeb]

Was the thief an overcomer? Was he saved?

Yes, on both counts. For a person to be an overcomer means they have surrendered their entire heart to God.

Did Christ know the condition of the thief's heart? Yes. Would anything less than a full surrender of all known sin have resulted in the thief's salvation? Could he have partially surrendered his heart to Christ and been saved?

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure that a death bed conversion counts as 'overcoming', but it's really pointless to discuss. The Spirit was not yet given, so the thief could not have New Testament salvation. What he had, is between him and God.

[joeb]

I'm not sure that a death bed conversion counts as 'overcoming', but it's really pointless to discuss. The Spirit was not yet given, so the thief could not have New Testament salvation. What he had, is between him and God.

[BibleOnly]

Ez 3 is talking about what Jesus died to give us, it did not exist before Acts 2. John 3:8 says the voice of the Spirit is heard when someone is born of the Spirit :-)

You're using a lot of word games and logic here to call Jesus a liar. He said the Spirit in the NT sense could not be given until He had died. Yes, the Spirit moved on people to do God's work, but Jesus came to give more. Christianity is based on what Jesus did and gave us.

"Are you saying that no one who has a death bed conversion will inherit all things, or be considered by God to be His son?"

No, I am saying that one does not overcome if one never has to live as a Christian, because they died as soon as they became one.

[joeb]

Ez 3 is talking about what Jesus died to give us, it did not exist before Acts 2. John 3:8 says the voice of the Spirit is heard when someone is born of the Spirit :-)

You're using a lot of word games and logic here to call Jesus a liar. He said the Spirit in the NT sense could not be given until He had died. Yes, the Spirit moved on people to do God's work, but Jesus came to give more. Christianity is based on what Jesus did and gave us.

"Are you saying that no one who has a death bed conversion will inherit all things, or be considered by God to be His son?"

No, I am saying that one does not overcome if one never has to live as a Christian, because they died as soon as they became one.

With your logic, no one in the OT ever had a converted heart.

I'm not playing word games. I'm showing that God's Spirit has always worked upon the human heart, and that being born again is a concept first taught in the OT. Just because the Jews of Christ's day had lost sight of what real spirituality is doesn't mean they shouldn't have known about it.

Yes, Pentacost was foretold as a greater-than-normal outpouring of God's Spirit, but the only way a human heart can ever be converted and convicted of sin is by the Holy Spirit. Thus conversion in the OT was by the same means as in the NT, the Spirit of God.

You're the one playing word games and setting artificial distinctions where none exist, Biblically.

[BibleOnly]

I'm not using logic, I'm reading the Bible. Did Jesus say He had to die to send the Spirit, or not ?

[Gibs]

I believe Jesus would have the spirit sent in his absence, as He states, "I will not leave you comfortless, then says "yet a little while and the world seeth me no more".

Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What does this mean ? I'd say it means that once He was with His Father, people could receive the Holy Spirit

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It's a matter of public record that they received the Spirit in Acts 2, and that in Acts 11, Peter refers to Acts 2 as 'the beginning'. So, it's clear that the Bible says they received the Spirit in Acts 2, and not before, and it's clear in general that Jesus could not send the Spirit until He had overcome death and made it possible for the Spirit to be given