Commandments in John

[Hansen]

The Greek word for “commandment” is [*OLB #1785]. It is used 9 times in John. It does not refer to the Decalogue in any of the passages. The word is often defined by context. For example, in chapter 12:

49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak.

50 "And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Here Jesus says that what he says, his teachings, were received as a commandment from the Father. Those teachings are eternal life.

The following passages also refer to the commandments

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

Jesus is not referring to the Decalogue in these passages. The context indicates that he is referring to his teachings, the ones he received from the Father.

Note the following verses:

Jesus answered and said to him, "if anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him (John 14:23).

"he who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the father’s who sent me(John 14:24).

The commandments Jesus refers to in verses 15 and 21 are explained in verses 23 and 24. They are his words, his teachings, not the Decalogue.

*Online Bible

[cheddar]

Many on this forum will bash Dr. Rich and they believe that same things he does. You can’t say the ten commandments are still binding in one breath and then turn around and say you accept Paul’s teaching. Paul taught unmistakably that the ten commandments were part of the old covenant and not binding on new covenant christians. New covenant commandments revolve around faith and love not ‘thou shalt not’.

I understand that most adventists who grew up in the church went to the Ellen White school of brain-washing and had the ten commandments pounded into their brains from the time they were born. I guess that’s better than growing up in the world where you have evolution pounded into your brain and grow up becoming an atheist, but it doesn’t make it right.

The Lord in his great mercy sent a most precious message to his people to correct this error and we all know how that turned out…it was a disaster!

[wayfinder]

What John records as Jesus teaching should and would be consistent with what Matthew records and with the truth about God in the "Old Testament"

Matthew 19:16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life ?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good ? There is only One who is good ; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."18 Then he said to Him, "Which ones ?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY ; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL ; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS ;19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER ; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets ; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven ; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is clear from the above verses what God expects us to understand when He says "commandments". God does not require commandment keeping at one time, then not require commandment keeping at another time. God is, was, and is to come, the Eternal One, the Almighty. God allows each one of us to choose the way we want to follow, but only His way leads to eternal life.

Matthew 7:13,14 NAS

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it

Proverbs 16:25 NAS

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

[cheddar]

For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes and pharisees and adventists kept the ten commandments...it's not good enough, we need to do better!

[ClubV12]

The commandments ARE the words of Jesus and His teaching! The Scribes and Pharisees weren't keeping the ten commandments, they were keeping their own rules, laws and regulations, some 613 of them. Directing every facet of life down to the smallest detail, as their "laws" dictated. Keeping God's law must flow from a heart of love, if not, it is meaningless.

[BibleOnly]

Interesting that in Matthew, Jesus adds the 'golden rule' to some of the commandments and does not mention the Sabbath. The commandments say to keep the Sabbath and not kill your brother. Jesus said to love your brother and rest in Him. Following Jesus does not mean breaking the commandments. It means doing more than following an external law, being internally motivated to follow God as far as we can go. That is the difference.

Here is a passage of the Bible that no Sabbath keeper on this forum is willing to discuss with me

Hbr 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

How is it something to fear, if all we need to do, is not work on Saturday ? Isn't that clear and obvious ?

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

When we believe, we enter in to rest. It does not say that we then start to enter in to rest every Saturday and leave it every Sunday. This is why Jesus said He came to give us rest. They had the Sabbath.

Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.

When God rested on the 7th day, and when He gave Israel the Sabbath, He was indeed foretelling the rest that comes in the Gospel.

Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Why does the day move to 'Today' ? Does this mean that David was writing on a Sabbath ? Is the Sabbath the only day someone can become a Christian ?

Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Another day does not mean Sunday. It means that now we have another way of entry, not waiting for Saturday to rest, but on any given day, obeying God and becoming a Christian.

Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Hbr 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Again, how does one 'labour' to not work on a Saturday ? This is talking about resting in the Gospel, which starts when we are converted and is always there, if we choose to rest in it, by trusting God in every aspect of our lives.

[cheddar]

The 7th day sabbath does not need the ten commandments to prop it up.

The sabbath goes all the way back to creation before the law was ever given.

All the new testament authors kept the sabbath including your precious Paul!

Sunday or the 1st day of the week is a common working day, a pagan sun-festival day that has absolutely nothing except the 'traditions of men' to prop it up.

Paul linked faith with rest and work with unbelief. Therefore the Sabbath is a symbol of faith and Sunday is a symbol of unbelief.

We don’t keep the sabbath in order to be saved, we keep the sabbath because we have already been saved and are resting in Jesus Christ.

As to the other verse: ‘Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.’

The word labor in this passage is not a good translation.

The greek word is 'spoudazo' which is translated:

endeavour - 3 times

do diligence - 2 times

be diligent - 2 times

give diligence - 1 time

be forward - 1 time

labour - 1 time only

study - 1 time

So I would say that a better translation would be to endeavour or be diligent to enter into God's rest.

[BibleOnly]

The 7th day sabbath does not need the ten commandments to prop it up.

The sabbath goes all the way back to creation before the law was ever given.

[BibleOnly]

"but it's as plain as day to me that you are proud and unteachable."

This is an interesting way to pretend that you can answer these verses, without doing so. It's more than anyone else has done, I've posted them many times and got no reply. It seems logical for me to therefore assume that the SDA cannot explain how these verses contradict their beliefs, and just pretend they are not there.

" I bet if I spoke in that gibberish tongues language you would believe me...LOL"

No, if you had the Holy Spirit, it would not prove everything you said about the bible was true, you'd still have to align with scripture for me to believe you.

"p.s. Tom don't delete my post!"

It would do more for your integrity if you answered my question instead of just trying to insult me. If you did not engage in personal attacks, you'd not have to worry about your post being deleted.

[Hansen]

Brethren, Please notice that the topic of the thread is "Commandments in John."

Not only in the Gospel but in his epistles as well, the word "Commandments" does not refer to the Decalogue.

The context of "keep my commandments" makes it plain that the "commandments" to which Jesus refers are his teachings, sayings, words, not the Decalogue. It's important to acknowledge that because most of us have been abusing the Bible by throwing around "prooftexts" which do not prove the point we want to make.

This thread was not started to attack the Sabbath. It was started to foster responsible interpretation of the Bible, specifically, the "commandments" in John's writings.

Please take Sabbath arguments elsewhere.

[jasd]

QR frame:

I believe that Hansen was making the point that St John used entole rather than nomos when referring to 'commandments'.

The question obtaining is, "Why?" Does it, in fact, make a difference? Or does it make a major difference?

Re the Sabbath: fact of the matter is, both Jeremiah and Hosea write that Gd removed all the Sabbaths, inclusively, even the Sabbath of the New Moon. (the Sabbath of the Jubilee may or may not be included)

As long as St Paul used synagogues as a base for his work, he was obliged to keep the Jewish customs, whatever they perceived as Sabbaths included.

The most cursory investigation reveals that our Gregorian calendar has absolutely nothing to do with the OT calendar. Moreover, the OT calendar fixed Sabbaths by certain of the Feasts. Today's Jewish calendar is an admitted facsimile of the OT calendar. No more, no less. An admitted dissimilar calendar.

One cannot abide by what no longer exists.

The book of Job tells us that man can sanctify. In the absence of a truly prevailing Biblical Sabbath, man has no governing authority proscribing him from sanctifying a Sabbath day to honor his Lord and Gd.

[BibleOnly]

Hansen, given that most SDA use these passages to prove their sabbath keeping, the two concepts are intertwined.

"In the absence of a truly prevailing Biblical Sabbath, man has no governing authority proscribing him from sanctifying a Sabbath day to honor his Lord and Gd."

You're saying man is free to invent a Sabbath instead of the rest that Jesus died to give us ?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

In the absence of a truly prevailing Biblical Sabbath, man has no governing authority proscribing him from sanctifying a Sabbath day to honor his Lord and Gd.

>>You're saying man is free to invent a Sabbath instead of the rest that Jesus died to give us ?<<

Dismissing your tendency to the use of pejoratives – particularly as it concerns the term “invent” – that is exactly how my statement reads, yes?

Why ought not Xtians, additionally, assemble together to praise and honor their Lord and Gd?

[Hansen]

The primary place we find rest is in Jesus, not the Sabbath. Many Jews keep the Sabbath more carefully than most Adventists. Jesus pointed out that the Commandments he taught were the ones he received from his Father, ones which led to, or were, eternal life, in themselves.

There is no life in the Sabbath. There is life in Jesus. The passages in John that are often used to support Sabbath observance such as "If you love me, keep my commandments" are not referring directly to the Decalogue or the Sabbath. They are referring to the faith based teachings of Jesus Christ.

That should be obvious from the context of the passages, as explained in the post above. If you want to keep the Sabbath, that's your own affair. If you use passages from John regarding the "commandments," to justify it, you are not much different than a JW or lover of J. Smith.

[BibleOnly]

"Dismissing your tendency to the use of pejoratives – particularly as it concerns the term “invent” – that is exactly how my statement reads, yes?

Why ought not Xtians, additionally, assemble together to praise and honor their Lord and Gd?"

The question is, are we free to invent the ways we follow God, instead of doing what He wants us to do ? We can gather on any day we like, but to say that God especially values worship on one day over others, is either true, or not.

[BibleOnly]

"That should be obvious from the context of the passages, as explained in the post above. If you want to keep the Sabbath, that's your own affair. If you use passages from John regarding the "commandments," to justify it, you are not much different than a JW or lover of J. Smith."

I agree. This is why Paul said, some people regard one day above another and others regard every day the same. If you want to keep a day to God, help yourself. But don't tell anyone else they have to. That's not what Jesus died for, for us to remain under the law. I've made this point many times, and no-one has ever answered. Jesus said instead of not killing our neighbour, we need to love him as ourselves. The SDA maintains that Jesus came to expand on every other aspect of the law, but the Sabbath stayed the same, and when Jesus said He came to give us rest, He just meant that we could keep on taking Saturdays off work.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Dismissing your tendency to the use of pejoratives – particularly as it concerns the term “invent” – that is exactly how my statement reads, yes?

Why ought not Xtians, additionally, assemble together to praise and honor their Lord and Gd?

>>The question is, are we free to invent the ways we follow God,<<

Okay, taking the question as posited and only addressing the subject of a Sabbath day: given the texts of Lamentation and Hosea re Gd’s removal of all the Sabbaths from both Kingdoms – and lacking any further instructions re the ‘keeping’ of one – the expositor can only assume that it is his to “invent” – should he be desirous. Taking then a cue from the

“perfect man” Job – we find that man may sanctify. This, man did do when he “invented” the day of Resurrection as one worthy of sanctification.

The Xtian today, with few exceptions, worship the Lord Gd on what they think is the day the Redeemer arose from the grave with Redemption for man. A good thought for a good day.

>>instead of doing what He wants us to do ?<<

What does Gd want us to do re His and/or a Sabbath day?

>>We can gather on any day we like, but to say that God especially values worship on one day over others, is either true, or not.<<

Oh but He did/does value His Sabbaths. For that reason He removed them from the profantions of man. Those to whom Gd's Sabbaths were given in covenant - refused to desist from profaning them.

Unfortunately for the stickler of the word, the Sabbaths, according to Jeremiah and Hosea, have since been removed from man’s reckoning - and held until the millennium, when they will be reintroduced as Gd's Sabbaths.

To add insult to injury, the calendar the Seventh-day Sabbath keepers follow is one

constructed by Hillel II in the Fourth century AD. It is admittedly a facsimile – an untrue facsimile.

The above does not say or intimate that Gd does not honor the Sabbath-day keeper’s intent of the heart – should he do it as unto the Lord.

[BibleOnly]

"What does Gd want us to do re His and/or a Sabbath day?"

To complete the concept by resting in Him in the power of the Holy Spirit, and through the Gospel.

[John317]

The scribes and pharisees and adventists kept the ten commandments...it's not good enough, we need to do better!

Don't forget Jesus Christ obeyed them too-- all of them.

In Christ's day there was no disagreement over whether God wants people to keep the Ten Commandments. There was no disagreement over this question in Paul's day, either.

It's the moral law of God summarized in the Ten Commandments that define and point out sin. And Christ came to do away with sin.

Sin is breaking the law of God. 1 John 3: 4.

Romans 7:7 ....if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

James 2:9

But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Unrighteoueness is sin, which means that unrighteousness is breaking God's law.

Therefore, righteousness is keeping God's law.

Scripture says Jesus Christ loves righteousness and hates unrighteousness.

Hebrews 1:9

"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness

...."

1 John 2:4

Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Romans 8:3-4

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 Cor. 7:19--

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

[BibleOnly]

That Jesus lived a perfect life under the law so we would not have to, is the most basic concept of the new testament. Your statements are mostly right, but, we don't keep the 10 commandments, if we did, we would not kill our brother, but not bother to love him as ourselves.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 [is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[John317]

That Jesus lived a perfect life under the law so we would not have to, is the most basic concept of the new testament.

You appear to be saying that Christ lived a perfect life and obeyed the Ten Commandments so that we can break them.

That is just the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

That would be saying Christ came so we can sin.

Paul categorically denies that the effect of grace is that we can continue in sin:

Romans 6:1-3

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

The effect of the gospel is that through God's grace, Christ's followers may obey God's will. The Holy Spirit leads us to obey God, not disobey Him.

This is stated clearly in Romans 8:3,4--

Romans 8:3-4

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 6:18

and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

[Hansen]

John 12:46 "I have come as light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me will not remain in darkness.

47 "if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 "he who rejects me and does not receive my sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

49 "for I did not speak on my own initiative, but the father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

50 "I know that his commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the father has told me."

Notice in the passage above, Jesus explains that his teachings were received as a "commandment" from his father. Jesus says that people will be judged by his word in the last day. This word refers to his sayings/teachings, which were commanded by the Father.

A major mistake made by many of us is to wrongly assume that whenever the word "commandment" appears, the Decalogue is meant. It is a gross error to assume that "commandments" always means Decalogue. It doesn't.

The word translated "commandments" appears 13 times in the epistles, yet there is no clear reference to the Decalogue in any of those verses.

The passage below clearly explains what the commandment is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another." Those are the commandments to which John refers. He clearly explains what the commandments are.

1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments <1785> and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:23 this is his commandment <1785>, that we believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded <1785> us.

1Jo 3:24 the one who keeps his commandments <1785> abides in him, and he in him. we know by this that he abides in us, by the spirit whom he has given us.

[BibleOnly]

You appear to be saying that Christ lived a perfect life and obeyed the Ten Commandments so that we can break them.

That is just the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

That would be saying Christ came so we can sin.

Paul categorically denies that the effect of grace is that we can continue in sin:

Romans 6:1-3

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

[BibleOnly]

Notice in the passage above, Jesus explains that his teachings were received as a "commandment" from his father. Jesus says that people will be judged by his word in the last day. This word refers to his sayings/teachings, which were commanded by the Father.

A major mistake made by many of us is to wrongly assume that whenever the word "commandment" appears, the Decalogue is meant. It is a gross error to assume that "commandments" always means Decalogue. It doesn't.

The word translated "commandments" appears 13 times in the epistles, yet there is no clear reference to the Decalogue in any of those verses.

The passage below clearly explains what the commandment is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another." Those are the commandments to which John refers. He clearly explains what the commandments are.

1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments <1785> and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:23 this is his commandment <1785>, that we believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded <1785> us.

1Jo 3:24 the one who keeps his commandments <1785> abides in him, and he in him. we know by this that he abides in us, by the spirit whom he has given us.

I agree, and in loving God and our neighbour, we keep the whole law, the Bible says. So, there is no reason why we are condemned if we ever sweat on a Saturday, or any reason to believe that God rejects sincere worship based on the cycles of the sun.

[John317]

The Greek word for &#147;commandment&#148; is [*OLB #1785]. It is used 9 times in John. It does not refer to the Decalogue in any of the passages. ....

The following passages also refer to the commandments

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

First of all, we accept all the Gospels, not merely the Gospel of John.

That includes verses in which Jesus clearly uses "commandments" in reference to the Ten Commandments:

Matthew 19:17-19

And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." [18] He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness."

The word "commandments" here is translated from the Greek word, entolee (Strong's 1785), the same word that is used in John 14: 15, 21 and elsewhere in John's Gospel.

Secondly, who made the Ten Commandments? Wasn't it Jesus Christ who made them?

John 1:3

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Therefore, Christ's commandments include the Ten Commandments.

Thirdly, who spoke with Moses at the Burning Bush and gave him the law of God?

It was Christ, wasn't it?

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

1 Cor. 10:9

We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,

Jude 1:5

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.