Commandments in John

[BibleOnly]

"It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, it is not lawful to call every good thing acceptable work on the Sabbath. "

This then becomes, as you say, a matter for private interpretation. Which means that all you really require is that I say I am observing the Sabbath in whatever I choose to do on that day ?

"The parabale of the wheat and tares growing together is clear to me, we cannot always discern where people are at in their relationship with Christ. We ARE called to make a judgment at times, and follow Matthew 18 in that process. In SOME cases it is very clear where people stand, but I won't rush to judegment."

I think the parable of the wheat and tares is about the final harvest, when Jesus returns. Until then, I agree, there are those in the church who are not living the life that Jesus wants, but they have that chance to grow and show what they will become.

"It would be wrong for me to "love and help you" by ignoring that and instead seeking some common ground"

I think I've shown from the Bible that your belief is wrong, but I agree with your conclusion, which is also why I will talk about what I regard to be the core manifestation of salvation when it comes up ( although I am trying to avoid circular endless discussion and to participate in other things, lest I become 'that guy who only cares about tongues', a conclusion that is not true, but could appear to be if I focus only on the thing you need most to hear.

" Speaking in tongues, as you define it, is not biblical in my opinion, it is a serious, even devilish problem of some magnitude. I fear you are in so deep on this concept it is impossible for any man to reason it out. Your only hope is an awakening by the Holy Spirit, but even THAT you have so grossly misinterpreted you are not likely to hear the voice!! The whole thing is very tragic and dangerous."

What troubles me most about this is the idea that when I asked God to deliver me, He ignored me at first. When I asked again after being told a lie, He allowed Satan to answer me, BUT, He chose THAT very moment to instantly deliver me from my addictions and my hurts. That's a very complicated God, and one who seems to have set out to make things hard for me. It seems more sensible to me that when my life was changed, it was changed by God, and the thing that manifested itself visibly at that time, was also from God. Of course, the proof of this is the Bible, not my experience, but, I do feel my experience is worth bringing up, because it proves what I claim the bible to say. When people here say 'of course God does not deliver you instantly from addiction, it takes time', that only confirms to me that I have received real power, and they are talking about the power of peer pressure, which happens in places that don't claim to have anything to do with God.

Again, I understand why Acts 2 is confusing to people who don't have the Spirit, but the explanations I've been given of 1 Cor 14 are convoluted and bizarre to say the least, and no-one has really explained why 1 Cor 12 lists tongues alongside a bunch of things that no Christian claims not to have.

[Gerr]

"It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, it is not lawful to call every good thing acceptable work on the Sabbath. "

This then becomes, as you say, a matter for private interpretation. Which means that all you really require is that I say I am observing the Sabbath in whatever I choose to do on that day ?

Up to a point that is true. But the 4th commandment and Isa 58 and other places give some general guidelines as to what is/not proper Sabbath activities.

Quote:

Again, I understand why Acts 2 is confusing to people who don't have the Spirit, but the explanations I've been given of 1 Cor 14 are convoluted and bizarre to say the least, and no-one has really explained why 1 Cor 12 lists tongues alongside a bunch of things that no Christian claims not to have.

I am surprised that you would make such a statement after several pages of discussiing this subject in the thread that for reasons that escape me was locked up.

There's nothing confusing that I see in Ac 2. Luke makes it perfectly clear that the tongues spoken there as a result of the gift of tongues being given, were languages that were perfectly understood by the Jews of the diaspora. For one to claim that the tongues of Ac 2 are human languages and then proceed to claim that the tongues in 1 Cor 14 are tongues that only God knows, is bizarre and convoluted.

[Gerr]

I'd suggest his #1 commandment was the need to receive the Holy Spirit, so that we would have His laws written on our hearts. However, the obvious ones are:

Mar 12:28 ¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

This fulfils, rather than does away with, the law, as Jesus said He came to do.

And HOW would I or God know that you love God and and your neighbor?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

"It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, it is not lawful to call every good thing acceptable work on the Sabbath. "

This then becomes, as you say, a matter for private interpretation. Which means that all you really require is that I say I am observing the Sabbath in whatever I choose to do on that day ?

Up to a point that is true. But the 4th commandment and Isa 58 and other places give some general guidelines as to what is/not proper Sabbath activities.

Quote:

For people bound to the law, yes. What do you think Jesus achieved by dying ? Did anything change ? If not, what was the point ?

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Again, I understand why Acts 2 is confusing to people who don't have the Spirit, but the explanations I've been given of 1 Cor 14 are convoluted and bizarre to say the least, and no-one has really explained why 1 Cor 12 lists tongues alongside a bunch of things that no Christian claims not to have.

I am surprised that you would make such a statement after several pages of discussiing this subject in the thread that for reasons that escape me was locked up.

[BibleOnly]

And HOW would I or God know that you love God and and your neighbor?

What is your answer to this question ?

God knows because he sees my heart. People can only try to judge based on my actions. That's the loving my neighbour part. God knows if I love Him, too, but this is precisely why there is a physical manifestation of the Spirit, so men in the church can see when someone is converted, and start teaching them to walk in the Spirit, instead of encouraging them to receive the Spirit.

[ClubV12]

Gerry makes an important point about how to keep the Sabbath. There ARE some specific guidelines that are considered a violation serious enough to consider removing one's membership from the Adventist church. While that may seem harsh, consider that ALL groups have some rules and laws that if violated, risk your membership in that group. If you don't like or support those rules, you are free to leave that group.

The Adventist church, like ALL churches have specific rules and laws to which one must adhere if they wish to retain membership. "Working" on the Sabbath is one. What IS working on the Sabbath, WHEN does it cross the line, UNDER what circumstances should membership removal be considered? How long must this go one before action is considered? By WHOM will said action be considered? These are not easy to answer questions in all cases.

Suffice it to say, a member of the Adventist church does not the freedom to do whatever he/she feels is appropriate in view of the laws and rules of the church, including working on Sabbath. If "anything goes" there wouldn't BE a church at all. Even the early church had certain minimum guidelines that applied to the members. When/if they were violated there were specific actions the church was REQUIRED to follow in dealing with a member who was in error.

I would guess, BibleOnly, you have at least some minimum laws and rules in your church. A member who is constantly causing a problem for others would be asked to leave, or worse, for instance.

[cheddar]

As the thread title states, the topic is "Commandments in John." I was simply pointing out that none of the references in John's gospel or epistles are referring directly to the Decalogue when he uses the term "commandments."

Considering that many Adventists favor John's references to the commandments, when beating people with the Decalogue, I thought it might be worthwhile to point out that the people doing that are deluded.

The favorite passage "sin is the transgression of the law" isn't referring to the Decalogue. The Greek simply means "without law." In the Greek OT, the word is used to describe the Sodomites, people who lived before the Decalogue was given on Sinai. The passage is translated by other versions, such as the ASV, NRSV, NASB, and YLT as "lawlessness." Lawlessness isn't necessarily a reference to the Decalogue. It might be; however, there is nothing in the context to indicate that John was pointing his readers to the Decalogue.

If you want to be saved by keeping the Decalogue, I'm sorry to say, based on Matthew 19, that isn't enough. Even keeping the Decalogue from your childhood isn't enough. You still need the treasure in heaven, which the legalistic ruler lacked. He walked away from Jesus. What are you going to do? Accept the gospel of righteousness by faith or take a walk?

Amen.

John did talk about commandment keeping more than the other disciples and he never once mentioned the decalogue.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – Adventists have the ten commandments hard wired into their brains.

This teaching is not found in the new testament and comes only from the writings of Ellen White. Her one redeeming quality is that at the end of her life she pointed people to the true gospel.

I always liked the beginning of the gospel of John and his analogy of the light and the darkness.

Trying to attain heaven by keeping the ten commandments is the deepest pitch black darkness that there is and few people who go down that path ever come back. The ones who teach this false gospel are the agents of Satan.

[BibleOnly]

Gerry makes an important point about how to keep the Sabbath. There ARE some specific guidelines that are considered a violation serious enough to consider removing one's membership from the Adventist church. While that may seem harsh, consider that ALL groups have some rules and laws that if violated, risk your membership in that group. If you don't like or support those rules, you are free to leave that group.

[ClubV12]

Keeping the commandments won't save you because that is "heaven earned" by works. By the same token, ignoring the commandments is "heaven by presumption of faith" and that won't save you either!

Those that are truly following Christ recognize that His grace is all that will save them. As a result, they will keep the commandments, all of them, from a spirit of love and acceptance. Faith, without works, is as dead as works, without faith.

By the way, John's commandments speak primarily about our relationship to man, which are covered in the last six commandments. John certainly does not mean to imply, as some interpret his writing, to suggest the ten commandments are now abolished. Applying this logic, that the commandments are done away with actually opens a huge can of worms in light of the gospel as a whole. A can of worms that simply cannot be resolved. The ten stand, always have, always will.

There is a church manual that covers the laws and by-laws and guidelines of the church. In that manual you will find about a dozen specific reasons that could rise to the level of disfellowship. While you don't consider the Sabbath issue to be one, "Seventh-day Adventists" certainly do, I do. If you don't believe in, accept, honor and obey the minimum Sabbath standards, why would you even WANT to be a "SEVENTH-DAY" Adventist? Without accepting that, you do not qualify for baptism, let alone membership. Strict? Sure, God says what He means, means what He says. REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Very clear statement, hasn't ever changed since Adam's time.

[BibleOnly]

John did talk about commandment keeping more than the other disciples and he never once mentioned the decalogue.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – Adventists have the ten commandments hard wired into their brains.

This teaching is not found in the new testament and comes only from the writings of Ellen White. Her one redeeming quality is that at the end of her life she pointed people to the true gospel.

I always liked the beginning of the gospel of John and his analogy of the light and the darkness.

Trying to attain heaven by keeping the ten commandments is the deepest pitch black darkness that there is and few people who go down that path ever come back. The ones who teach this false gospel are the agents of Satan.

The core issue really, is that no NT verse says we have to keep the Sabbath, and many say we do not. I can see how someone, with pure intention, decided it was important to keep the Sabbath, as part of the commandments, and the movement has had to justify that stance ever since. But, without the 10 commandments as the core of Christianity, they've got nothing.

[BibleOnly]

Keeping the commandments won't save you because that is "heaven earned" by works. By the same token, ignoring the commandments is "heaven by presumption of faith" and that won't save you either!

Those that are truly following Christ recognize that His grace is all that will save them. As a result, they will keep the commandments, all of them, from a spirit of love and acceptance. Faith, without works, is as dead as works, without faith.

By the way, John's commandments speak primarily about our relationship to man, which are covered in the last six commandments. John certainly does not mean to imply, as some interpret his writing, to suggest the ten commandments are now abolished. Applying this logic, that the commandments are done away with actually opens a huge can of worms in light of the gospel as a whole. A can of worms that simply cannot be resolved. The ten stand, always have, always will.

I agree that faith without works is dead. And so is works without faith. However, the core question is always, do you love your brother, or just not murder him ? If the commandment does not stand ALONE anymore, why would the sabbath be any different, or at least, given that this is true for some, why would the Bible not make clear where it is no longer true ?

[cheddar]

The core issue really, is that no NT verse says we have to keep the Sabbath, and many say we do not. I can see how someone, with pure intention, decided it was important to keep the Sabbath, as part of the commandments, and the movement has had to justify that stance ever since. But, without the 10 commandments as the core of Christianity, they've got nothing.

I'm not interested if you accept the sabbath or reject it.

This thread isn't even about that.

You're the one who takes every post and turns it into some kind of sabbath debate.

[ClubV12]

Cheddar says,

"This teaching is not found in the new testament and comes only from the writings of Ellen White."

Cheddar is of course grossly mistaken on this point and does not speak for the church.

Not ONE doctrinal point of Adventists is supported solely by Ellen White. ALL doctrinal point are bible based, including the ten commandments as binding authority today, always have been.

[cheddar]

Cheddar says,

"This teaching is not found in the new testament and comes only from the writings of Ellen White."

Cheddar is of course grossly mistaken on this point and does not speak for the church.

Not ONE doctrinal point of Adventists is supported solely by Ellen White. ALL doctrinal point are bible based, including the ten commandments as binding authority today, always have been.

The ten commandments and the gospel of the new covenant are opposites.

You can't have both only one.

It's your choice so choice does play a part.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Cheddar says,

"This teaching is not found in the new testament and comes only from the writings of Ellen White."

Cheddar is of course grossly mistaken on this point and does not speak for the church.

Not ONE doctrinal point of Adventists is supported solely by Ellen White. ALL doctrinal point are bible based, including the ten commandments as binding authority today, always have been.

The ten commandments and the gospel of the new covenant are opposites.

You can't have both only one.

It's your choice so choice does play a part.

This is not really true. It's more true that the 10 commandments are a car, but the gospel is a porsche. You can't have a porsche and not have a car, even if there are some details where a porsche is different to any other car.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The core issue really, is that no NT verse says we have to keep the Sabbath, and many say we do not. I can see how someone, with pure intention, decided it was important to keep the Sabbath, as part of the commandments, and the movement has had to justify that stance ever since. But, without the 10 commandments as the core of Christianity, they've got nothing.

I'm not interested if you accept the sabbath or reject it.

This thread isn't even about that.

You're the one who takes every post and turns it into some kind of sabbath debate.

I thought I turned every conversation into a debate on tongues ?

How can anyone 'accept the Sabbath' and say that you need to reject the 10 commandments to accept the Gospel ? On what basis does that work ?

I assume you're not representative of mainstream SDA thought ?

[Hansen]

Originally Posted By: Hansen

The commandments Jesus refers to in verses 15 and 21 are explained in verses 23 and 24. They are his words, his teachings, not the Decalogue.

In following the thread, unless I missed it, I didn't see where you identified the teachings of Jesus that would constitute His commandments?

Gerry, Take a look at the passages in question.

John 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Jesus says it again:

21 "he who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my father, and I will love him and will disclose myself to him."

Now notice the following passages:

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "if anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him.

24 "he who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the father’s who sent me.

Verses 14 and 21 say if a man loves Jesus, he will keep his commandments. Verses 23 and 24 say if a man loves Jesus, he will keep his teachings. Teachings and commandments are the same. They are kept by those who love Jesus.

The two passages below also use the words "commandment" and "words/teachings" interchangably:

Ro 13:9 for this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment <1785>, it is summed up in this saying <3056>, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

1Jo 2:7 beloved, I am not writing a new commandment <1785> to you, but an old commandment <1785> which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment <1785> is the word <3056> which you have heard.

[ClubV12]

BibleOnly says,

"You can't have both only one."

The Gospel OR the ten commandments.

I disagree, we DO have both, and they are in perfect harmony. One explains the other.

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly says,

"You can't have both only one."

The Gospel OR the ten commandments.

I disagree, we DO have both, and they are in perfect harmony. One explains the other.

Hang on a bit. Cheddar said that, not me. You can have the 10 commandments and not the golden rule, but you can't have the gospel and explicitly NOT have the 10 commandments. You can have the gospel and not be tied to the form of the 10 commandments, but you can't divorce the gospel from the concepts they contain.

[ClubV12]

Sorry for the misquote BibleOnly.

But it changes not my opinion, perfect harmony between the ten commandments, the golden rule, the teachings of Jesus and the gospel. They are all just another way to see the "law" by which ALL will be judged in due time. And God will in no wise clear the guilty.

[BibleOnly]

I didn't think it would change your opinion, so long as you didn't have the wrong opinion of what MY view was....

[BibleOnly]

I work in IT. I am at a computer all the time. So, any form of communication, I tend to be the first to reply. It's got nothing to do with my religious views :-)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And HOW would I or God know that you love God and and your neighbor?

What is your answer to this question ?

I asked you first!

Quote:

God knows because he sees my heart. People can only try to judge based on my actions. That's the loving my neighbour part. God knows if I love Him, too, but this is precisely why there is a physical manifestation of the Spirit, so men in the church can see when someone is converted, and start teaching them to walk in the Spirit, instead of encouraging them to receive the Spirit.

And what does a person who is walking in the Spirit do that shows he loves God and his fellowman?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

What is your answer to this question ?

I asked you first!

Quote:

And I've answered' date=' where is your answer ?

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what does a person who is walking in the Spirit do that shows he loves God and his fellowman? [/color']

This is a redundant question. He doesn't obey the 10 commandments, he does more. He walks in the Spirit. The answer is the same as the question. You know someone has the Spirit because they spoke in tongues. You know they are walking in the Spirit by everything they say and do, not a checklist of 10 things that leave them free to do what they want after they've worked through it.

[Lysimachus]

And what does a person who is walking in the Spirit do that shows he loves God and his fellowman?