Commandments in John

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Where in Heb 4 does it say that we don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore?

It doesn't. But, you will frame it in those terms, it's a straw man.

I've posted about these verses at least 15 times on this board. They refer to 'another day' and the fact that the sabbath did not give rest. They point to the concept still existing, but in a new form.

You keep going back to this verse and throwing everything else aside in the NT that relates to the Sabbath and saying what?

That we worship God everyday now instead of one. That’s the way it’s always been! The Jews worshipped God every day and especially on the Sabbath. Christians for the most part worship God every day and especially on Sunday. This argument is stupid and it’s not even what the verse is saying.

Paul said that if Jesus had given them rest then he would not afterward have spoken of another day. Most christians use this verse to prove Sunday worship and I don’t think that you’re using it that way so what is the other day? He didn’t say every day like you’re saying, he said another day! So what is the other day?

Maybe it’s Wednesday or Thursday or maybe Friday and the muslims were right all along. No, the other day is the Sabbath. The Jews kept the sabbath as a day of legalism and trusting in their own works and this was unacceptable to God. God wants us to keep the sabbath as it was originally intended as a day of rest, i.e. spiritual rest. A day for reflecting on the great salvation that Jesus purchased for us with his own blood.

You obviously go to church on Sunday, so you place some importance on that day even if you won’t admit it.

[BibleOnly]

You keep going back to this verse and throwing everything else aside in the NT that relates to the Sabbath and saying what?

[cheddar]

I could care less. If the government said tomorrow that to kick start our economy, we needed to work a 6 day week, with 2 days off, and for reasons of convenience, this meant the days of the weekend constantly changed, I would care less about the day I go to church constantly changing. I also go to church on a Wed night. At some times my church has had Tuesday and Thursday meetings ( 3 a week ). Never is there any suggestion that the days we choose matter to God.

Exactly, we don't choose the days, God does.

And he has chosen the 7th day.

Jesus said that the son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

It's in the Bible from cover to cover.

Someone with the name Bibleonly should know that!

[BibleOnly]

Exactly, we don't choose the days, God does.

And he has chosen the 7th day.

Jesus said that the son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

It's in the Bible from cover to cover.

Someone with the name Bibleonly should know that!

So we're back to discussing truisms and not the Bible ?

If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, does that mean He's beholden to it, or the other way around ? In context, Jesus was not saying that the Sabbath was a concept that He was intimately tied to in it's OT form. It means that He was lord OVER that concept. And He did not do away with it, He completed it. The concept is indeed in the Bible, all the way through, from the days of creation to the millenium in Rev ( so, cover to cover is very apt ). But, Hebrews explains clearly that a day off did not bring Israel rest, but that the concept is fulfilled in the concept of 'today' in the Gospel age.

[phkrause]

If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, does that mean He's beholden to it, or the other way around ?

Obviously he was, since even in death he rested on the Sabbath!

[cheddar]

But, Hebrews explains clearly that a day off did not bring Israel rest, but that the concept is fulfilled in the concept of 'today' in the Gospel age.

The day off did not bring Israel rest. I agree with that. But whose fault was that? The Sabbath got a bad reputation because of what the people did.

If we follow your logic then all days are the same. No more birthdays or anniversaries. Nothing to celebrate or look forward too, every day exactly the same as the day before - sounds dumb but knock yourself out.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, does that mean He's beholden to it, or the other way around ?

Obviously he was, since even in death he rested on the Sabbath!

ROTFL - well, I would not assume the significance of that fact without scripture to clarify it.

[phkrause]

And He did not do away with it, He completed it.

So than he must have completed the other 9 also? So I guess we're free to, what, disregard them also? That will be fun! But no just the 4th one, according to all your posts. That's the impression I'm getting.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

But, Hebrews explains clearly that a day off did not bring Israel rest, but that the concept is fulfilled in the concept of 'today' in the Gospel age.

The day off did not bring Israel rest. I agree with that. But whose fault was that? The Sabbath got a bad reputation because of what the people did.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

And He did not do away with it, He completed it.

So than he must have completed the other 9 also? So I guess we're free to, what, disregard them also? That will be fun! But no just the 4th one, according to all your posts. That's the impression I'm getting.

That's because you're reading what I say through your own filters. I am not free to break the Sabbath, I keep it in a way that fulfils it's intent, in the way that the Bible says a Christian would. Just like I don't keep 'do not murder', but, instead love my brother as myself. I don't break the commandment, but I don't regard it's limits as the limit of my obligation. Instead I do all I can to follow God's principles all the time.

[phkrause]

That's because you're reading what I say through your own filters. I am not free to break the Sabbath, I keep it in a way that fulfils it's intent, in the way that the Bible says a Christian would. Just like I don't keep 'do not murder', but, instead love my brother as myself. I don't break the commandment, but I don't regard it's limits as the limit of my obligation. Instead I do all I can to follow God's principles all the time.

What limits? God's Law has limits? So from what I've read in your posts you observe man's day? Sunday? But feel that the Sabbath is just a limited day?? or has its limits?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

That's because you're reading what I say through your own filters. I am not free to break the Sabbath, I keep it in a way that fulfils it's intent, in the way that the Bible says a Christian would. Just like I don't keep 'do not murder', but, instead love my brother as myself. I don't break the commandment, but I don't regard it's limits as the limit of my obligation. Instead I do all I can to follow God's principles all the time.

What limits? God's Law has limits? So from what I've read in your posts you observe man's day? Sunday? But feel that the Sabbath is just a limited day?? or has its limits?

I'm sorry, I am questioning why I am bothering. You're playing word games, not mixing the words of God with faith. This is legalism and it leads to death.

A law has a limit. That is obvious. If I have to not kill my brother, that doesn't mean I can't hate his guts. So long as he's alive, no matter what else I do, I have kept the law. In the same way, if I keep the sabbath, then it is kept, no matter what I do the other 6 days. This is why Jesus was asked 'who is my neighbour', because that's a natural response to a rule, to a law. When does this apply ? How do I know I've kept it ? It's the opposite to the attitude of the New Testament, but it is we, and not the law who failed.

I don't observe Sunday. You're just so brainwashed in to thinking that the whole Gospel revolves around the Sabbath that the concept of keeping God in my life always, instead of keeping a day, is totally alien to you. That is why, no matter what I say, people here keep asking why I 'keep' sunday, or how I could possibly rest on a day in which I also do work.

[cheddar]

I don't observe Sunday. You're just so brainwashed in to thinking that the whole Gospel revolves around the Sabbath that the concept of keeping God in my life always, instead of keeping a day, is totally alien to you. That is why, no matter what I say, people here keep asking why I 'keep' sunday, or how I could possibly rest on a day in which I also do work.

Well, you are the fastest poster on the forum and I'm not going to argue with that.

I agree with most of your positions except for tongues and the sabbath.

You are right that the days we keep right now are not that important, but someday it will be important.

The whole world doesn't keep Sunday for no reason, it didn't happen by accident.

Satan has chosen his day and Jesus has chosen his.

At the very end, there won't be anybody on the fence - you're going to have to go one way or the other.

[BibleOnly]

You are right that the days we keep right now are not that important, but someday it will be important.

[Gerr]

Meaningless word games cannot change the Bible. They are in essence the game that satan played when tempting Jesus.

Word games?

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The 10 commandments are part of the law which teaches us what sin is. But, Paul writes that with Christ, we no more need a schoolmaster. Why do you still need one ?

Oh, so you don't need the law to tell you what sin is after you become a Christian? And once the schoolmaster has brought a sinner to the Master Teacher, is the student then free to play hooky? New Christian are like children. The law serves as the ABCs of right and wrong. Or the law is like a student driver's instruction book. Once he learns how to drive, you can put it in the glove compartment or may even throw it away. You no longer have to keep referring to it because you have it down pat. It is now part of your habits in your daily driving. By the same token, once the law is written in the heart by the Spirit, we no longer obey by the written code but in newness of the Spirit.

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But this is the point. To obey Jesus is to keep the golden rule. To obey the 10 commandments, falls short.

I have already stated more than once. The 10c are the least/minimum one can do for God or man. But when stated in the positive like the two great commandments from which the 10c are derived, then the sky is the limit. Now, the golden rule only applies to human relationships, how about the first table of the 10c? How can you be doing more or doing the max if you are disregarding the bare minimum?

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So how do we do more that the 10 commandments with regard to the Sabbath ? Rest on two days ? I do that. How about the permanent rest Jesus promised, every day of my life ?

How do YOU do more than the bare minimum to keep the Sabbath concept ? What does Hebrews 4 mean ?

See my other posts where I specifically addressed these issues.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Where in Heb 4 does it say that we don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore?

It doesn't. But, you will frame it in those terms, it's a straw man.

Hmmmm. Now you read my mind? Aren't you the one building a strawman?

Quote:

I've posted about these verses at least 15 times on this board. They refer to 'another day' and the fact that the sabbath did not give rest. They point to the concept still existing, but in a new form.

15x? Aren't you exaggerating by quite a bit? I have already explained in another post that merely avoiding your usual business on the Sabbath day is NOT entering God's rest. Most of the Israelites that perished in the desert did not work on the Sabbath, but they did not enter God's rest. Sad to say, but not every Sabbath keeper today has entered God's rest either.

So what is that "another day" spoken of in Heb 4:8? That "another day" is "today". Three times the writer says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts..." You can enter God's rest today by believing and obeying Him.

[Gerr]

I'm still waiting for your response to my question as to what teachings of Jesus would comprise as His commandments.

Context is very important, yes, indeed. But to limit the context of the word "commandments" only to John when the same Jesus had his teachings recorded by other writers as well. All the gospel writers had some events/words in common, but they also had their unique differences. They all complement each other. And since the OT scriptures testify of Christ, any reason to exclude the context of what they teach about the commandments?

Yes, you are right, the teachings of Jesus supersede the 10c. But He came to magnify the law as I pointed out in another post, not to do away with them. Too many people do not see the broad principles embodied in those 10c. But it was the same Jesus that spoke the 10c at Sinai who amplified them on the Sermon on the Mt. Revelation is progressive after all. It seems disingenuous to me to talk about a higher law while disregarding the bare minimum.

[BibleOnly]

Oh, so you don't need the law to tell you what sin is after you become a Christian?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

It doesn't. But' date=' you will frame it in those terms, it's a straw man.

Hmmmm. Now you read my mind? Aren't you the one building a strawman?

Quote:

I read your words. 'why don't we have to keep the sabbath', 'why are we free to break God's law', etc, is the crux of all your posts.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I've posted about these verses at least 15 times on this board. They refer to 'another day' and the fact that the sabbath did not give rest. They point to the concept still existing, but in a new form.

15x? Aren't you exaggerating by quite a bit? I have already explained in another post that merely avoiding your usual business on the Sabbath day is NOT entering God's rest. Most of the Israelites that perished in the desert did not work on the Sabbath, but they did not enter God's rest. Sad to say, but not every Sabbath keeper today has entered God's rest either.

[/quote']

I am sure I posted them four times yesterday. Yes 15x is a guess. I am sure it's > 10.

You're right, because Sabbath keepers are too busy with the law to enter the rest of the Spirit.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So what is that "another day" spoken of in Heb 4:8? That "another day" is "today". Three times the writer says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts..." You can enter God's rest today by believing and obeying Him.

Exactly. So, the rest is today, not Saturday. It's not 'today' once a week. Now you're getting it.

[Gerr]

Of course there is judgement. But you need these vague verses and then to claim that they refer to the OT Sabbath concept, you can't address it more directly, because the specific verses say you are mistaken.

Vague verses? What's right in the middle of the 10c by which everyone will be judged by? Look, it's really amazing to me that the ONE commandment that God specifically said to "REMEMBER" is the very one a lot of people have forgotten or trying to forget. That really boggles my mind! But that should not be surprising because God predicted it long ago that the little horn antichrist power will change "times and the law," Dan 7:25.

Satan has an intense hatred against the Sabbath because it stands as a bulwark against evolution. It is a constant reminder that Christ, Satan's archenemy, is the Creator. It is a constant reminder that man cannot save himself - Christ alone can make him holy again. The very sign that God gave to show that He alone can save, Satan has succeeded into making a lot of people think that keeping the Sabbath is a sign of legalism, that those who obey it are somehow working their way into heaven!

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Remember, the new Jerusalem is for a restored Israel, judged by the saints, so, it doesn't really matter if the 10 commandments are in there, that seems almost obvious.

And where will the Gentiles be?

Quote:

You can't use this sort of logic chain to argue with more specific scripture.

That's because you refuse to acknowledge that right inside that ark in the heavenly temple is God's covenant - the TEN COMMANDMENTS!They are enshrined in the most holy place in the entire universe.

Originally Posted By: BO

OK, so we agree then that the law is not the same now, that Jesus changed this ? So, when Hebrews 4 says the Sabbath concept was changed, why is that such an issue ?

Huh? Where did I ever agree with you that the law has changed? Jesus said He did not come to change or abolish it. I just got through showing you that God's Covenant - the 10c, are enshrined in the ark that is in the heavenly temple! In another post I explained that the "another day" of rest that is being referred to in Heb 4 is "today". Those who have not yet entered God's rest can enter it today by believing and obeying Him. And the symbol of entering that rest is the very day you are trying to ignore. ESV | ‎Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.... 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules, ESV | ‎Ex 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. ‎17 It is a sign forever

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you saying that because He fulfilled the law that we no longer have to obey His commandments? Are you saying that Jesus came to die so as to give us license to sin?

BO answer: NO !!!!!

I am honestly sick of this.

[color:blue]

Well, imagine how sick Adventists are hearing people telling them that they are legalists because they try to keep all 10c but that the same people are not legalists by keeping just 9/10. Or how sick Adventists are of people telling to forget the ONE ommandment God said to "REMEMBER!" Or sick of hearing people who say, "I'm resting in Christ, so I don't need to rest on the Sabbath anymore."

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If the Sabbath was made for man and you think you are free to disregard it without penalty, then salvation which was made for man can also be disregarded without penalty?

BO answer:

Another ridiculous invention. Your doctrine seems to be based on word games and attempts at logical conclusions that go outside what the Bible says.

But isn't that the logical conclusion that one could draw from your reasoning? At least that's how it looks to me.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So what is that "another day" spoken of in Heb 4:8? That "another day" is "today". Three times the writer says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts..." You can enter God's rest today by believing and obeying Him.

Exactly. So, the rest is today, not Saturday. It's not 'today' once a week. Now you're getting it.

If you have been carefully reading what I had posted, you wouldn't make such as statement. The Israelites did not enter God's rest becuase of sin, rebellion, unbelief & disobedience. How can anyone claim they are entering God's rest when they are breaking God's command/commandments? The very same thing that kept many of the Israelites from entering His rest? Your reasoning totally baffles me! Keeping the Sabbath is symbolic of entering God's rest.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Of course there is judgement. But you need these vague verses and then to claim that they refer to the OT Sabbath concept, you can't address it more directly, because the specific verses say you are mistaken.

Vague verses? What's right in the middle of the 10c by which everyone will be judged by? Look, it's really amazing to me that the ONE commandment that God specifically said to "REMEMBER" is the very one a lot of people have forgotten or trying to forget. That really boggles my mind! But that should not be surprising because God predicted it long ago that the little horn antichrist power will change "times and the law," Dan 7:25.

[BibleOnly]

Yes, that's right. It's a symbol, pointing to what was to come.

'We have no more need of a schoolmaster', remember ?

If I enter in to rest with God all the time, what is different on a Saturday ? Except legalism, that is ?

[BibleOnly]

I'm still waiting for your response to my question as to what teachings of Jesus would comprise as His commandments.

[Lysimachus]

Just a casual reading of the scriptures shows that Christ came to magnify and elaborate the golden rule, not replace it.

It's laughable at best when people try to make the words of Christ snuff out the Ten Commandments. Sheer lunacy of the highest order. lol.

The ultimate proof of this is when Christ approaches the Rich Young Ruler, and alludes to the "commandments". The Rich Young Ruler had never heard Christ's teachings before, so the only commandments Christ could mean when He brought them up to the ruler were the Ten Commandments. And the fact that he mentioned 5 of them from the second table, and left out the 10tth (of not coveting) proves unquestionably that Christ was referring to the Ten Commandments. He coveted what God was wanting him to give up--possessions.

Jesus knew, according to Matthew 19:17, that "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." ... yet Jesus also knew there was MORE. It had to blossom in the heart. It had to go beyond the elementary basics.

People who think they can keep the teachings of Jesus without first obeying the Ten Commandments are no different than a child in elementary school deciding to skip 1st-12th grade before advancing to University. LOL. If you don't have your ABCs down pat, you surely won't get your Algebra figured out.

. . .