Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 A list of rules is exactly what the law was. The law of God is actually principles of agape/love. Jesus showed us this in His teaching. These principles God promises to write on our hearts under the New Covenant. See Hebrews 8 and 10. He won't force us to accept them on the tablets of our heart and minds, but He will write them if we don't resist Him. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Hansen Posted December 19, 2011 Author Posted December 19, 2011 As the thread title states, the topic is "Commandments in John." I was simply pointing out that none of the references in John's gospel or epistles are referring directly to the Decalogue when he uses the term "commandments." Considering that many Adventists favor John's references to the commandments, when beating people with the Decalogue, I thought it might be worthwhile to point out that the people doing that are deluded. The favorite passage "sin is the transgression of the law" isn't referring to the Decalogue. The Greek simply means "without law." In the Greek OT, the word is used to describe the Sodomites, people who lived before the Decalogue was given on Sinai. The passage is translated by other versions, such as the ASV, NRSV, NASB, and YLT as "lawlessness." Lawlessness isn't necessarily a reference to the Decalogue. It might be; however, there is nothing in the context to indicate that John was pointing his readers to the Decalogue. If you want to be saved by keeping the Decalogue, I'm sorry to say, based on Matthew 19, that isn't enough. Even keeping the Decalogue from your childhood isn't enough. You still need the treasure in heaven, which the legalistic ruler lacked. He walked away from Jesus. What are you going to do? Accept the gospel of righteousness by faith or take a walk?
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ....If you want to be saved by keeping the Decalogue, I'm sorry to say, based on Matthew 19, that isn't enough. No one here is claiming that anyone can be saved by keeping the Decalogue. Not a single person can or will be saved in that way. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 What's the question that I haven't answered? Are you saying that it would be wrong to point out the commandments of God to a criminal violating the law? Do you obey the golden rule or just keep the 10 commandments. Assuming it's God's law that they broke, of course not. but that is the point, the law is for the lawless. The righteous live within the law, they do not strain at it.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly A list of rules is exactly what the law was. The law of God is actually principles of agape/love. Jesus showed us this in His teaching. These principles God promises to write on our hearts under the New Covenant. See Hebrews 8 and 10. He won't force us to accept them on the tablets of our heart and minds, but He will write them if we don't resist Him. The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. The principles of God are indeed agape/love. The law showed us sin, but also was a barrier to the attitudes God wanted us to take. Paul covers this. The question remains, do you follow the principles of love, or keep the 10 commandments only ?
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Hansen ....If you want to be saved by keeping the Decalogue, I'm sorry to say, based on Matthew 19, that isn't enough. No one here is claiming that anyone can be saved by keeping the Decalogue. Not a single person can or will be saved in that way. Most identify the word 'commandment' in the Bible with what you do on a Saturday, though.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 What's the question that I haven't answered? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Do you obey the golden rule or just keep the 10 commandments. See post#504180 for the answer to this question. What other question haven't I answered? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ...Most identify the word 'commandment' in the Bible with what you do on a Saturday, though. "Most" of who or what? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. The principles of God are indeed agape/love. The law showed us sin, but also was a barrier to the attitudes God wanted us to take. Since the law leads us to Christ, it must still be applicable and valid. Once we come to Christ, are you saying we can now dispense with the law of God and live as if it doesn't exist? How are the Ten Commandments a barrier to the attitudes God wants us to take? Paul doesn't say there's anything wrong at all with the law of God. In fact, on the contrary, Paul says, "So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." (Romans 7: 12) There's something wrong with people, not with God's perfect law. What's wrong with people? They can't obey God. So God sent Christ and the Holy Spirit in order to help people obey Him. As Romans 8: 3-4 says: For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ...The question remains, do you follow the principles of love, or keep the 10 commandments only ? The love principle is what causes me to keep the 10 commandments. The basis of the ten are: (1) love God with all of our strength, and (2) love our fellow man as we love ourselves. Loving God and our fellow-man is what motivates us to keep all 10. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Bert Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Jesus said in Matthew 5:19, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." The word 'commandments' is used 26 times in the New Testament, and is 'entole' in the Greek (1785) and is defined as follows: injunction, i.e. an authoritative prescription:---commandment, precept. The word 'law' is used about 195 times in the New Testament, and depending on the context of the scripture in which it is used, also is referring to the Ten Commandments. In the Greek, it is 'nomos' (3551). 1 John 3:4 has this to say in reference to the commandments, or law, the same thing contextually in this verse, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." If sin is the 'transgression of the law', then without the Ten Commandments, where is the definition of sin that one can transgress? Since some consider the Ten Commandments as being done away with, by what standard does one identify sin? By what 'yardstick' do you use to determine to whom you owe your worship...and when? As has been pointed out, keeping the commandments by no means provides for one's salvation, but rather it provides a standard by which we abide by in our relationship with our Creator and our fellowman, which was amplified by Christ during His ministry.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ....that is the point, the law is for the lawless. The righteous live within the law, they do not strain at it. But let's suppose that someone wants to obey God and thinks they are but then they are shown that they aren't. Won't such a person quickly change so that they are obeying God's law? Or will a believer stubbornly refuse to change his ways even after he sees that he's disobeying God? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly ...Most identify the word 'commandment' in the Bible with what you do on a Saturday, though. "Most" of who or what? Most people I've spoken to who identify themselves as SDA.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly ....that is the point, the law is for the lawless. The righteous live within the law, they do not strain at it. But let's suppose that someone wants to obey God and thinks they are but then they are shown that they aren't. Won't such a person quickly change so that they are obeying God's law? Or will a believer stubbornly refuse to change his ways even after he sees that he's disobeying God? Well, let's see. Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 And how many SDAs have you talked to? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 What's the question that I haven't answered? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Do you obey the golden rule or just keep the 10 commandments. See post#504180 for the answer to this question. What other question haven't I answered?
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ....that is the point, the law is for the lawless. The righteous live within the law, they do not strain at it. Originally Posted By: John3:17 But let's suppose that someone wants to obey God and thinks they are but then they are shown that they aren't. Won't such a person quickly change so that they are obeying God's law? Or will a believer stubbornly refuse to change his ways even after he sees that he's disobeying God? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Well, let's see. Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ? Answer my questions first, then I will answer yours. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 And how many SDAs have you talked to? I am not sure. There's the girl who I met up with after years passing since we were in school together. Her husband. Her friend she sent to convert me. The local pastor who she sent on the same basis. At least two other people she put me in contact with on the basis that they were high up the food chain and knew the bible really well and could answer my questions. That might be all, apart from the ones I've spoken to in here. I lost count. There's also the ones who I spoke to in passing via her facebook posts, but they don't really count. Either way, they all reminded me with any verse they could find that had the word 'commandment' that I was breaking the one that matters most by going to church on the wrong day.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly ....that is the point, the law is for the lawless. The righteous live within the law, they do not strain at it. Originally Posted By: John3:17 But let's suppose that someone wants to obey God and thinks they are but then they are shown that they aren't. Won't such a person quickly change so that they are obeying God's law? Or will a believer stubbornly refuse to change his ways even after he sees that he's disobeying God? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Well, let's see. Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ? Answer my questions first, then I will answer yours. LOL - touche. One would assume if a person is sincere about following God and not determined to follow a particular religion, they would change their ways when told they have missed out on something. That's what the people in Acts 19 did, that's why I brought it up. That's what I did, eventually, when I was finally converted after years of following powerless religion.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ... One would assume if a person is sincere about following God and not determined to follow a particular religion, they would change their ways when told they have missed out on something. That's what the people in Acts 19 did, that's why I brought it up. That's what I did, eventually, when I was finally converted after years of following powerless religion. OK, so you are saying the law of God still teaches us to change our life and our behavior and thinking if we find that we are not in harmony with it. One purpose of the law is to teach us the will of God and how to please Him, right? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 Not many SDAs. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 OK, so you are saying the law of God still teaches us to change our life and our behavior and thinking if we find that we are not in harmony with it. One purpose of the law is to teach us the will of God and how to please Him, right? Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. The law, when read through the filter of the golden rule, still establishes principles about the nature of God. It is not wrong, or changed, or worthless. But, Christ is a better filter, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the writing of God's principles on our hearts is a better method of establishing those ideas, than the written law was.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Not many SDAs. :-) You're saying 6 people plus the people I've spoken to here is not enough for me to say I have an idea of what the SDA believes ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ? Yes. Before you get started on your hobby horse, you might as well know that talking in gibberish is not an evidence that one has received the Holy Spirit. That is a counterfeit sign. True signs of having received the Spirit into one's life are: love of Jesus, a desire and ability to obey Him and His commandments; love of God's Word; love for other Christians; a thirst for Bible truth; a change in one's life so that one is becoming more like Jesus. Here are some verses that show us evidences of having the Holy Spirit: John 14:21-24 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." [22] Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?" [23] Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. [24] Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 1 John 5:1-2 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 1 John 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. Galatians 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [26] Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. 1 John 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [6] If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. [8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 2:3-6 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. 1 John 3:1-3 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. [2] Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. [3] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 1 John 3:6-10 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righ teousness is righteous, as he is righ teous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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