BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 "The word "commandments" here is translated from the Greek word, entolee (Strong's 1785), the same word that is used in John 14: 15, 21 and elsewhere in John's Gospel." Showing only that it means 'do what you're told' and not 'keep the 10 commandments and that's all'. "Who spoke with Moses at the Burning Bush and gave him the law of God? It was Christ, wasn't it? " But did He give them to the church, or Israel ? Did He come to set us free from the bounds of the law, or to remind us to keep it in it's original form ? The core question is, do you love your neighbour as yourself, or do you simply not murder him ? That is the core of it. Either you keep the 10 commandments in their original form, or you do what Jesus said. Doing what Jesus said, goes further than the 10, so it does not mean breaking them. But it sure does not mean keeping them in their original form. It means more. Just like accepting constant rest from God is a step further from thinking God requires you to mark the cycles of the sun to know when to worship, and to be bound by legalism to never sweat on a saturday.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 Romans 6:18 talks about being freed from sin and becoming a slave of righteousness? Will a slave of righteousnss obey the Ten Commandments, or will he disobey them? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Why not answer my question ? A slave of righteousness will not have a list of rules he can follow to earn his salvation, he will feel compelled to always do good, as much has he ever can. So, he will 'keep' the 10, by keeping the golden rule, which demands more. He will not follow an external law, because that is not the sort of compulsion a slave is motivated by. Do you keep the golden rule, or the 10 commandments ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 .... Did He come to set us free from the bounds of the law, or to remind us to keep it in it's original form ? Did Christ come in order to free us from the necessity of obedience to God's will? Please give the Bible definition of sin. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 A slave of righteousness will not have a list of rules he can follow to earn his salvation,... Who said anything about having a list of rules he can follow to earn salvation? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 "The word "commandments" here is translated from the Greek word, entolee (Strong's 1785), the same word that is used in John 14: 15, 21 and elsewhere in John's Gospel." Showing only that it means 'do what you're told' and not 'keep the 10 commandments and that's all'. "Who spoke with Moses at the Burning Bush and gave him the law of God? It was Christ, wasn't it? " But did He give them to the church, or Israel ? Did He come to set us free from the bounds of the law, or to remind us to keep it in it's original form ? The core question is, do you love your neighbour as yourself, or do you simply not murder him ? That is the core of it. Either you keep the 10 commandments in their original form, or you do what Jesus said. Doing what Jesus said, goes further than the 10, so it does not mean breaking them. But it sure does not mean keeping them in their original form. It means more. Just like accepting constant rest from God is a step further from thinking God requires you to mark the cycles of the sun to know when to worship, and to be bound by legalism to never sweat on a saturday. Exodus 24:12 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them." The Greek translation of the Old Testament, the LXX, translates this word "commandments" as entole. :) ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Q.E.D. Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Did He come to set us free from the bounds of the law, or to remind us to keep it in it's original form ? Christ came to keep the law perfectly to save us from eternal death by his infinitely perfect substitutionary sacrifice, NOT to "remind us to keep it in it's original form". Christ came to save us from "the law of sin and death." NOT "to set us free from the bounds of the law". Q.E.D Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 When the Hebrew people broke the Sabbath, God said: "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" (Exodus 16;28) The Greek translation is "entole". :) ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 A slave of righteousness will not have a list of rules he can follow to earn his salvation, he will feel compelled to always do good, as much has he ever can. So, he will 'keep' the 10, by keeping the golden rule, which demands more. I agree with you here. It demands more, not less. The 10 include the Sabbath commandment, which is right in the center of God's law. It connects the first three with the last six. By the way, I've never suggested-- and SDAs don't believe-- that anyone can earn salvation by keeping the law. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Concerning the Ten Commandments which God had just spoken on Mount Sinai, Moses reminded the people of the giving of the Ten Commandments, and then went on to say concerning those same Ten Commandments: " 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!" (Deut 5:29) The Greek translation for this word also is "entole". :) ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 Why not answer my question ? ....Do you keep the golden rule, or the 10 commandments ? I believe that God wants us to treat others as we want to be treated. By God's grace and power, that is what I do. There is no conflict between the keeping of the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments. The Holy Spirit leads us to keep both because of our love for God and for our fellow man. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Luke 23:56 - "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " Guess which Greek word is used here too? "Entole". What other commandments would Luke be referring to but the Ten Commandments in reference to the Sabbath? ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ....A slave of righteousness .... he will 'keep' the 10, by keeping the golden rule, which demands more. He will not follow an external law, because that is not the sort of compulsion a slave is motivated by. Suppose this "slave of rightousness" is living in direct violation of God's law when he doesn't realize it? Then when he finds this out, won't the "slave of righteousness" repent and turn away from his sin and seek to obey God? For instance, let's suppose this person realizes that looking at porno is a sin. Won't he stop doing it when the Holy Spirit teaches him that's he's sinning when he looks at it? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted December 19, 2011 Members Posted December 19, 2011 Luke 23:56 - "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " Guess which Greek word is used here too? "Entole". What other commandments would Luke be referring to but the Ten Commandments in reference to the Sabbath? Definitely not the one that the Pope requires all to keep!!!!! phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ...The core question is, do you love your neighbour as yourself, or do you simply not murder him ? That is the core of it. Either you keep the 10 commandments in their original form, or you do what Jesus said. Doing what Jesus said, goes further than the 10, so it does not mean breaking them. But it sure does not mean keeping them in their original form. It means more. OK, so it means more, not less. It does not mean breaking the 10. I agree. Obeying the Ten Commandments would certainly NOT mean that I merely refrain from murder. God's law commands us to love both God and other humans as well as the animals. By the way, what form are the Ten Commandments which are in the ark that John saw in heaven in Rev. 11: 19? Is there any reason to believe the Ten Commndments are different today than they were when God wrote them with His own finger on tablets of stone? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 .. Either you keep the 10 commandments in their original form, or you do what Jesus said. Doing what Jesus said, goes further than the 10, so it does not mean breaking them. But it sure does not mean keeping them in their original form. It means more. Just like accepting constant rest from God is a step further from thinking God requires you to mark the cycles of the sun to know when to worship, and to be bound by legalism to never sweat on a saturday. We should be constantly worshipping God 24/7, but does that mean we neglect to go to church and pray and worship with fellow believers? Are you aware that the seventh day is holy time? It is God's time, not yours or mine. God only blessed one day of the week. What day is that? Why is the seventh day holy? What makes it holy? And what does it mean when the Bible says God "blessed the seventh day"? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ...Unfortunately for the stickler of the word, the Sabbaths, according to Jeremiah and Hosea, have since been removed from mans reckoning - and held until the millennium, when they will be reintroduced as Gd's Sabbaths. And of course, even assuming you are right (which you aren't), your statement here would mean no one really knows which is the first day of the week or any other day. It would also mean that Christ didn't know which day was the Sabbath but spoke of it as if He did. It would mean, too, that when the New Testament says certain things happened on "the Sabbath," those things didn't happen on the Sabbath after all. We already went over this topic many times before and discovered that Jeremiah and Hosea don't signify what jasd thinks, anyway. The context of those passages have to do with the fact that the people of Israel were going into exile. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ... I think because the import of the 10 commandments on their own, without the 'golden rule' is so beaten in to you, that you can't equate not being bound by their OT form to anything other than breaking them, despite my explanations to the contrary. How can you make such statements about someone you don't know? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
jasd Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Quote: The Greek translation of the Old Testament, the LXX, translates this word "commandments" as entole. Quote: The Greek translation is "entole". Given the above two quotes, and others, one asks, “Do they negate the question of how St John used entole?” I notice that one references the LXX, which did not, at the time, have the NT words of Jesus Christ (the two Great Commandments) to note and/or compare for a more specific application of entole. It may have been that were there two applications to ‘commandments’, the tables of stone and the Great Commandments, the translators of the LXX may have inclined differently. The others parallel the current Polyglot Greek Bible – yet, do not address how St John may have used entole. A read of St John’s writings seems to suggest that his was a singular use of entole – regardless of how others may have utilized entole or nomos.. Quote: Quote:LysimachusLuke 23:56 - "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " Guess which Greek word is used here too? "Entole". What other commandments would Luke be referring to but the Ten Commandments in reference to the Sabbath? Mebbe, Lev 23:7? “In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.”
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 ....I understand that most adventists who grew up in the church went to the Ellen White school of brain-washing and had the ten commandments pounded into their brains from the time they were born. You don't know what you're talking about. It sounds to me as if you must have gone to the anti-EGW school of brain-washing. God' Word says: Exodus 20:1-17 And God spoke all these words, saying, [2] "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. [3] "You shall have no other gods before me. [4] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, [6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [7] "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. [8] "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, [10] but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. [12] "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. [13] "You shall not murder. [14] "You shall not commit adultery. [15] "You shall not steal. [16] "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. [17] "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's." Deut. 11:19-23 You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. [20] You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, [21] that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens are above the earth. [22] For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the Lord your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, [23] then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves. Jesus said: Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [18] For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [19] Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Rev. 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Bert Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Why not answer my question ? A slave of righteousness will not have a list of rules he can follow to earn his salvation, he will feel compelled to always do good, as much has he ever can. So, he will 'keep' the 10, by keeping the golden rule, which demands more. He will not follow an external law, because that is not the sort of compulsion a slave is motivated by. Do you keep the golden rule, or the 10 commandments ? Bibleonly - Where is the Bible scripture that proscribes the contents of the 'golden rule'? The Bible says that the 'ten commandments are not made for the righteous, but for the unrighteous.....' this is what 1 Timothy 1:9 and 10 have to say about the commandments, " Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, vs 10 - For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."
BibleOnly Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 A list of rules is exactly what the law was. The question 'who is my brother' asked of Jesus was not unreasonable, it's a way of thinking inherent in the law. I'm not answering any more of your questions until you start to answer mine. I've made my position clear, and you respond to each question with a question. Do you not have any answers ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 19, 2011 Moderators Posted December 19, 2011 What's the question that I haven't answered? Are you saying that it would be wrong to point out the commandments of God to a criminal violating the law? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
jasd Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Quote: Quote:jasd ...Unfortunately for the stickler of the word, the Sabbaths, according to Jeremiah and Hosea, have since been removed from mans reckoning - and held until the millennium, when they will be reintroduced as Gd's Sabbaths. >>And of course, even assuming you are right<< About which part? >>(which you aren't),<< But of course I am. ;-) I proffer plainly written and irrefutable texts. >>your statement here would mean no one really knows which is the first day of the week or any other day.<< If you are referring to an OT day one – you are spot-on. No one knows. But then it doesn’t matter, as now, it is a NTestamentally sanctified day. Different times, different needs and applications, and different calendars. >>It would also mean that Christ didn't know which day was the Sabbath but spoke of it as if He did.<< Of course He knew the specific days, including the Sabbaths of His calendar. However, as He lived within the Jewish economy – He was obliged to acknowledge and attend their customs. Let me ask you, upon what point of The Law did Jesus Christ most often come into conflict with those who sat in the seat of Moses? Why? >>It would mean, too, that when the New Testament says certain things happened on "the Sabbath," those things didn't happen on the Sabbath after all.<< I believe the Greeks used the term ‘locative’. It indicated and obliged much. Writ was not centered in and written from the Chinese, Indian, or other, point of view. >>We already went over this topic many times before and discovered that Jeremiah and Hosea don't signify what jasd thinks, anyway<< But of course they do – unless the translators were bad wrong – as bad wrong as those who translated and copyrighted the NIV for instance. You ought to get rid of yours. [/peace] ;-) Anyway, a plain read of the KJV validates my position and that same translation served the .Org pioneers well enough. >>The context of those passages have to do with the fact that the people of Israel were going into exile.<< Indeed. And it appears that the removal of their Sabbaths was parcel their punishment... A resolute indicator that the Sinai Covenant was kaputi con tutti. Never, post Jeremiah and Hosea, do words appear in Writ that reinstated the Seventh-day Sabbath. However, I stipulate that it was kept somewhat, mostly ritually, affectedly – as was that of the early pioneers who kept part of the Fourth Commandment, yet made their beasts work. A definite Exodus 20:10 no-no.
Recommended Posts