Commandments in John

[John317]

You're saying 6 people plus the people I've spoken to here is not enough for me to say I have an idea of what the SDA believes ?

You're just beginning. The fact that you would base your ideas of SDAs on such slim evidence shows that you know very little of how to investigate the beliefs and doctrines of a church.

What was the last book published by SDAs on SDA beliefs that you read?

I spent almost two years studying JW beliefs and I am only just beginning to understand their doctrines. That was after spending most of that time just asking JWs questions, reading everything I could find published by them, attending their meetings, and making friends with them and visiting them in their homes.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

You're saying 6 people plus the people I've spoken to here is not enough for me to say I have an idea of what the SDA believes ?

You're just beginning. The fact that you would base your ideas of SDAs on such slim evidence shows that you know very little of how to investigate the beliefs and doctrines of a church.

What was the last book published by SDAs on SDA beliefs that you read?

I spent almost two years studying JW beliefs and I am only just beginning to understand their doctrines. That was after spending most of that time just asking JWs questions, reading everything I could find published by them, attending their meetings, and making friends with them and visiting them in their homes.

It's called 'the ride of your life'. To be honest, I don't want to be an expert in the SDA, I just want to understand how they/you justify your view point. The last book I'd have read would be about tongues, but it was so clueless, I couldn't justify the time. I have no desire to be widely read on world religions, only to follow God.

I guarantee you that if someone spoke to me and asked me questions for as long as I asked the main guy I spoke to for about 8 months, they would have a very clear idea of the doctrines of the church I go to, and where in the Bible they are derived from.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ?

Yes.

Before you get started on your hobby horse, you might as well know that talking in gibberish is not an evidence that one has received the Holy Spirit. That is a counterfeit sign.

[12tribes]

The commandments ARE the words of Jesus and His teaching! The Scribes and Pharisees weren't keeping the ten commandments, they were keeping their own rules, laws and regulations, some 613 of them. Directing every facet of life down to the smallest detail, as their "laws" dictated. Keeping God's law must flow from a heart of love, if not, it is meaningless.

The Pharisees only kept the outward but, were not changed inwardly

[12tribes]

The Greek word for “commandment” is [*OLB #1785]. It is used 9 times in John. It does not refer to the Decalogue in any of the passages. The word is often defined by context. For example, in chapter 12:

49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak.

50 "And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Here Jesus says that what he says, his teachings, were received as a commandment from the Father. Those teachings are eternal life.

The following passages also refer to the commandments

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

Jesus is not referring to the Decalogue in these passages. The context indicates that he is referring to his teachings, the ones he received from the Father.

Note the following verses:

Jesus answered and said to him, "if anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him (John 14:23).

"he who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the father’s who sent me(John 14:24).

The commandments Jesus refers to in verses 15 and 21 are explained in verses 23 and 24. They are his words, his teachings, not the Decalogue.

*Online Bible

John 14:15

(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Exodus 20:6

(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Jesus here is using a quote from the 10 commandments, Jesus referred to Himself as the I AM he is telling the m He is the one who gave the 10 commandments

[Hansen]

Very unfortunate example but an accurate one, of why so many people are confused on numerous Bible topics. The immediate context in John 14 defines the commandments as the teachings of Christ.

Exodus 20: 6 is not tne immediate context. John 14:23, 24 plainly interpret verses 15 and 21. The commandments in the passage refer to the teachings of Christ.

If you can't see that, you need a reading comprehension course in English. Foget about Greek for now.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: John317

True signs of having received the Spirit into one's life are:

love of Jesus,

a desire and ability to obey Him and His commandments;

love of God's Word;

love for other Christians;

a thirst for Bible truth;

a change in one's life so that one is becoming more like Jesus.

So it doesn't matter what day you go to church, because almost every person who goes to a church is saved, whatever they believe about Jesus?

Huh? Did I miss something. . .Or is BibleOnly's response a non-sequitur?

From Wikipedia:

Non sequitur (literary device) A non sequitur can denote an abrupt, illogical, unexpected or absurd turn of plot or dialogue not normally associated with or appropriate to that preceding it.

Q.E.D.

[Lysimachus]

What's the question that I haven't answered?

Are you saying that it would be wrong to point out the commandments of God to a criminal violating the law?

[Lysimachus]

As the thread title states, the topic is "Commandments in John." I was simply pointing out that none of the references in John's gospel or epistles are referring directly to the Decalogue when he uses the term "commandments."

Considering that many Adventists favor John's references to the commandments, when beating people with the Decalogue, I thought it might be worthwhile to point out that the people doing that are deluded.

The favorite passage "sin is the transgression of the law" isn't referring to the Decalogue. The Greek simply means "without law." In the Greek OT, the word is used to describe the Sodomites, people who lived before the Decalogue was given on Sinai. The passage is translated by other versions, such as the ASV, NRSV, NASB, and YLT as "lawlessness." Lawlessness isn't necessarily a reference to the Decalogue. It might be; however, there is nothing in the context to indicate that John was pointing his readers to the Decalogue.

If you want to be saved by keeping the Decalogue, I'm sorry to say, based on Matthew 19, that isn't enough. Even keeping the Decalogue from your childhood isn't enough. You still need the treasure in heaven, which the legalistic ruler lacked. He walked away from Jesus. What are you going to do? Accept the gospel of righteousness by faith or take a walk?

The Decalogue is always implicated though. Why? Because the Decalogue is the "foundation". God uses the symbolism of "stone" to represent a "foundation"--hence, Jesus is the "chief corner stone". When God wrote the Ten Commandments in stone, he was sending a message to the world--"these will never change". There was a good reason God selected 10 out of the 613 laws to be seared in sapphire stone.

"Your commandment is exceedingly broad" (Psalms 119:96)

For example, just the commandment of "thou shalt not kill" is so broad, it can even mean that when we abuse our bodies, we are killing ourselves. When it says "thou shalt not steal", it can also mean "do not steal God's time", or "do not waste God's precious time". When it says "thou shalt not commit adultery", it means more than just don't leave your wife for another woman, but it means to remain morally pure.

The Ten Commandments are the BASIS, of all of Jesus's teachings. Jesus "magnified" (Isa 42:21) the law, he did not "rewrite it".

This is easily recognized in the following passages:

• Matthew

  5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

  5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

  ....

  5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

  5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Question: Is Jesus "rewriting" these two commandments? Or is he "magnifying" them and showing what it means to have these commandments written in the heart? Does not being angry with your brother "rewrite" or "replace" the letter of the law that says "thou shalt not kill"? Does this mean that it now gives us a license to kill, but just don't be angry with the person we are about to kill? lol What about lusting after a woman. Is it okay now to commit adultery with your wife, as long as you don't lust after a woman in your heart? How is that possible?

If anything, the New Testament is more STRICT! Jesus shows how it's not a matter of "doing" or "not doing". It's a matter of your MOTIVES in your HEART!

It's the same with honoring and resting on God's Holy Seventh-Day Sabbath!!!!

If you keep it as a "do", it won't do you any good. God wants us to honor His Sabbath out of love, and to not just do it because we have to, but because we LOVE to keep the Sabbath, and CANNOT WAIT for it to arrive every week---we just BASK in His rest, and get excited every time Sabbath arrives!

That's how I am now. I used to not like the Sabbath, because I was anxious to get to my entertainments, and I felt Sabbath a restriction. But after my life changed, I no longer craved those entertainments anymore, and my desire for the study of the scriptures and for fellowship skyrocketed. Ever since then, Sabbath has been such a joy, and I cannot wait for it to arrive every week.

The things I once hated, I now love, and the things I once loved, I now hate.

[Bert]

Well said! I feel the same way about the Sabbath Day, for it is such a joy!

[ClubV12]

BibleOnly says,

"So it doesn't matter what day you go to church, because almost every person who goes to a church is saved, whatever they believe about Jesus?"

Thats "close" to the truth, but we are not playing horse shoes or hand grendades so lets put a point on it.

Salvation is possible for all, whether they go to "church" or not, ANY church on any day. The concept is "many sheep have I that are not of this fold." Whatever fold that might be. Expanding on that concept is that each person is held accountable for what they know. There is no condemnation under the laws of God for "ignorance" of the law. There is condemnation for those who WERE given the opportunity to learn but did not pursue it, they rejected it, God knows the heart and will judge accordingly.

The basics of Gods law are written on the heart, I believe they have ALWAYS been written on the heart to some degree. Thou shalt not kill, "man" has always known this is not a good idea, from his heart, not from a commandment. Some things are just "obvious", some things we "learn" along the path of life. The school of hard knocks isn't just physical, it's mental as well. Some things, like the Sabbath, need to be taught, to be learned, until the concept is explained and studied we remain ignorant and under NO condemnation until the idea is presented. At some point a choice must be made, to accept it or reject it. That applies to all new light, new truth. If we know it to be true and reject it, thats a serious problem.

In matters of the heart you cannot look for how close you can come to the law and still have one foot in the world. You can't be reaching for the heavenly crown AND the earthly crown. The focus must not be on "how close" we can come to new light and still "get by". "Close" doesn't cut it, your in or your out, all the way.

[BibleOnly]

John 14:15

(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Exodus 20:6

(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Jesus here is using a quote from the 10 commandments, Jesus referred to Himself as the I AM he is telling the m He is the one who gave the 10 commandments

So, Jesus was in fact using a secret code to say something He never said outright, that all He ever wanted from us was to keep the 10 literal commandments they already had, that He in fact died and rose again to emphasise and maintain the status quo ? All that talk of fulfilling the law just meant reminding us to keep it ?

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly says,

"So it doesn't matter what day you go to church, because almost every person who goes to a church is saved, whatever they believe about Jesus?"

Thats "close" to the truth, but we are not playing horse shoes or hand grendades so lets put a point on it.

Salvation is possible for all, whether they go to "church" or not, ANY church on any day. The concept is "many sheep have I that are not of this fold." Whatever fold that might be. Expanding on that concept is that each person is held accountable for what they know. There is no condemnation under the laws of God for "ignorance" of the law. There is condemnation for those who WERE given the opportunity to learn but did not pursue it, they rejected it, God knows the heart and will judge accordingly.

[ClubV12]

A conscience, aware, deliberate choice must be made in relation to the law as that relates to following Jesus. However you define the law, which in and of itself may be a key point upon which you will be tested. Upon which a distinct choice will have to be made.

When you have been enlightened to new understanding, when you comprehend that a choice must be made, that is the moment of acceptance or rejection. For some it may take years on any given point to come to that place, for others merely a moment.

Heaven is not "guess work", God will bring us to that point of making a decision to come to higher ground, to new light, to a new point in our experience where it will be clear we need to make a choice. This is the process of sanctification, it will take a lifetime as our understanding of what it means to follow God continally advances. What was not sin for you, yesterday, may be sin today as you grow in the Lord. A choice must be made, follow and obey or become satisfied with your growth and die (Laodecia).

[BibleOnly]

The Decalogue is always implicated though. Why? Because the Decalogue is the "foundation". God uses the symbolism of "stone" to represent a "foundation"--hence, Jesus is the "chief corner stone". When God wrote the Ten Commandments in stone, he was sending a message to the world--"these will never change". There was a good reason God selected 10 out of the 613 laws to be seared in sapphire stone.

[BibleOnly]

A conscience, aware, deliberate choice must be made in relation to the law as that relates to following Jesus. However you define the law, which in and of itself may be a key point upon which you will be tested. Upon which a distinct choice will have to be made.

When you have been enlightened to new understanding, when you comprehend that a choice must be made, that is the moment of acceptance or rejection. For some it may take years on any given point to come to that place, for others merely a moment.

Heaven is not "guess work", God will bring us to that point of making a decision to come to higher ground, to new light, to a new point in our experience where it will be clear we need to make a choice. This is the process of sanctification, it will take a lifetime as our understanding of what it means to follow God continally advances. What was not sin for you, yesterday, may be sin today as you grow in the Lord. A choice must be made, follow and obey or become satisfied with your growth and die (Laodecia).

I agree that it's not guess work, and yet, for all it's clarity, many are confused. If God requires us to keep Saturday, then the Bible must have been written to be confusing, because it contradicts this view. How do you tell the difference between enlightenment and socialisation, if it can take a long time ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John317

True signs of having received the Spirit into one's life are:

love of Jesus,

a desire and ability to obey Him and His commandments;

love of God's Word;

love for other Christians;

a thirst for Bible truth;

a change in one's life so that one is becoming more like Jesus.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So it doesn't matter what day you go to church, because almost every person who goes to a church is saved, whatever they believe about Jesus?

Huh? Did I miss something. . .Or is BibleOnly's response a non-sequitur?

From Wikipedia:

Non sequitur (literary device) A non sequitur can denote an abrupt, illogical, unexpected or absurd turn of plot or dialogue not normally associated with or appropriate to that preceding it.

Q.E.D.

I don't know anyone who is sincere about going to church, who doesn't love Jesus, and want to do what He said, at least according to what they think He did and said, or who doesn't love the people in their church. The list provided is so vague that you'd be hard pressed to argue that any church goer doesn't exhibit them.

[BibleOnly]

Well said! I feel the same way about the Sabbath Day, for it is such a joy!

Imagine a life resting in Jesus every day, instead of once a week !!

All this discussion of the Sabbath being a joy doesn't really prove anything. You're not Catholics in the Middle Ages crawling on broken glass, you're taking a day off. Of course you like it. That doesn't prove that God requires you to do it in the legalistic way that you do.

[ClubV12]

"Enlightenment and Socialisation", an odd comparison. The two are not harmonius. One is an understanding of the requirements of Gods law and what it means to follow Him. The other is something humans like to do, a need that drives us, but it cannot over ride the need to socialize with God above man.

The Sabbath was made for man, a day of spiritual, physical, mental rest from work. A day to celebrate God in church, in nature, in helping others. There are many ways to enjoy and honor the Sabbath. Going to work on the farm and repairing fences that can wait another day is not honoring the Sabbath, it's not resting. For those who say they "rest in the Lord" everyday, they have missed the concept. That fence will NEVER get repaired if that is the case! There is no "rest" for those who rest everyday, it's just another day, nothing special about it.

The bible IS indeed written in "code", it tells us that. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. Only those who truly seek the truth will find it, they can "read about it" all day long and never understand it. Many people know OF Christ, few actually know Him personally. Some even claim to work miracles in His name, but they still don't know Him. Code indeed, that is an accurate statement and the main reason Jesus often spoke in parabales. His followers understood, the Pharisee's were left scratching their head trying to figure it out.

[BibleOnly]

"Enlightenment and Socialisation", an odd comparison. The two are not harmonius. One is an understanding of the requirements of Gods law and what it means to follow Him. The other is something humans like to do, a need that drives us, but it cannot over ride the need to socialize with God above man.

[ClubV12]

"But, if people come to the SDA, and stop drinking over time, start to love the Sabbath concept over time, how can you be sure they are not just being socialised by the mores of their new peers?"

You can't "know" for sure, anymore than you can know for sure in any other group or church. The wheat and tares grow together we are not able to discern between the two who is a true believer and is not. Many people go to church, any church, for little more than social interaction. Thats a good thing for society, I'm OK with that concept. I'm looking a little higher than mere socialization myself...

Enjoying nature is one way of honoring the Sabbath day, there are 1,000's of ways to do it. Nature is Gods "other book", a good place to see, smell, observe, worship the creator on Sabbath. Or any other day for that matter. In particular I like to enjoy nature with a hightened sense of awareness for the blessings of God on His Sabbath day.

If you read and understand the fourth commandment it gives some clear guidelines for honoring the Sabbath day. In it, thou shalt not do any work, define "work" as you like. Thou NOR thy man or maid servant shall work on that day. Sending your hired hand out to fix the fence because YOU don't want to "work" on the Sabbath means you missed the point OF the Sabbath! NOR, the stranger that is within your gates, he isn't supposed to "work" either. Working everyday AND on the Sabbath day means the Sabbath is no different in your life than Monday. If you want to honor the Sabbath everyday, don't do ANY work. You, nor your household, nor your hired help, nor the stranger on your land. IF you want to honor the Sabbath day but feel that Sunday is more proper, don't work on Sunday. There is only ONE way you can get around this, you have to embrace the concept that the law of God is now null and void entirely. Feel free to curse God or place idols in your living room because you just abolished those commandments as well. You can't start picking and choosing here, they apply, the ten, or they don't apply. The first four are our relation to God, shall we throw those out as well?

[BibleOnly]

"But, if people come to the SDA, and stop drinking over time, start to love the Sabbath concept over time, how can you be sure they are not just being socialised by the mores of their new peers?"

You can't "know" for sure, anymore than you can know for sure in any other group or church. The wheat and tares grow together we are not able to discern between the two who is a true believer and is not. Many people go to church, any church, for little more than social interaction. Thats a good thing for society, I'm OK with that concept. I'm looking a little higher than mere socialization myself...

[Gerr]

The commandments Jesus refers to in verses 15 and 21 are explained in verses 23 and 24. They are his words, his teachings, not the Decalogue.

In following the thread, unless I missed it, I didn't see where you identified the teachings of Jesus that would constitute His commandments?

[BibleOnly]

I'd suggest his #1 commandment was the need to receive the Holy Spirit, so that we would have His laws written on our hearts. However, the obvious ones are:

Mar 12:28 ¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

This fulfils, rather than does away with, the law, as Jesus said He came to do.

[ClubV12]

Many misunderstand the meaning and proper use of the Sabbath day. That was certainly true in Christs time, the "legalistic" view has been around since Adam's time.

It's a matter of the heart what is and isn't acceptable "work" on the Sabbath. I wouldn't join a group to fix the church fence on Sabbath because that "work" can wait. But if my neighbors ox fall's in the ditch, I need to get to "work" to help, Sabbath or not. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, it is not lawful to call every good thing acceptable work on the Sabbath. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, especially true with what is and isn't acceptable on the Sabbath.

The parabale of the wheat and tares growing together is clear to me, we cannot always discern where people are at in their relationship with Christ. We ARE called to make a judgment at times, and follow Matthew 18 in that process. In SOME cases it is very clear where people stand, but I won't rush to judgment.

Now in YOUR case, BibleOnly, having spent some time reviewing your theology, I believe you are seriously mistaken concerning your interpretation of tongues. It would be wrong for me to "love and help you" by ignoring that and instead seeking some common ground. Common ground is a worthy goal, but I won't sacrifice that for the straight testimony. Speaking in tongues, as you define it, is not biblical in my opinion, it is a serious, even devilish problem of some magnitude. I fear you are in so deep on this concept it is impossible for any man to reason it out. Your only hope is an awakening by the Holy Spirit, but even THAT you have so grossly misinterpreted you are not likely to hear the voice!! The whole thing is very tragic and dangerous.