Who is the Anti-Christ? The Eighth King of Revelation 17!

[jamesonofthunder]

By Brother James Tierney, quoting Ellen and James White.

"Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth: and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while. And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goeth into perdition."

Revelation 17: 9-11

Concerning the meaning of this most telling of biblical prophecies, many different denominations believe the same thing, the foundation of which began with a seventh Day Adventist theologian named Uriah Smith. He claimed in his book ‘Daniel & Revelation' that the seven heads of this beast are the seven world empires beginning with Babylon, ending with America. The majority of Christian denominations have some kind of variant of this understanding.

Contrary to what he and most biblical scholars believe, the seven kings in Revelation 17: 10-11 could not be the world empires. I prayerfully venture to answer the question "why".

James White, who with Uriah Smith and many other believers from the United States helped found the Seventh Day Adventist Church, also had issues with Mr. Smiths explanation of the meaning of the seven kings of Rev 17. He illustrated this sentiment in his book ‘Life incidents’ on pg. 242 where he states; ...(stay with me, you'll see)

"What power is represented by the beast in Revelation 13? To learn this, we go still further back, to chapter 12, where we find a power symbolized by a great red dragon, which is the one next preceding the beast of chapter 13. The seven heads and ten horns upon both of these symbols show that they represent two phases of the same power. By universal consent of Protestant expositors, the great red dragon is considered a representative of Pagan Rome. The next phase presented by Rome after the Pagan form was the Papal. Rome Papal succeeded Rome Pagan. The dragon gave his seat, power, and great authority to the beast. Hence the beast can represent none other but Papal Rome."

First it is seen that Mr. White does agree with the majority of theologians that the Red Dragon of Revelation 12 symbolizes Pagan Rome who through 'Herod the Great' tried to kill Jesus when He was born. The Red Dragon Satan, trying to kill the man child Jesus, through the power of Rome.

But where Mr. White differed from the rest of the bible scholars from that point on is, He believed that the seven heads and ten horns on the beast of Rev 12 and also the beast of Rev 13 show they are two phases of the "same power". Rome Pagan became Rome Papal. Both beasts in Rev 12 &13 are representing Rome.

Well if the seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12 & 13 show that they represent two phases of the same power, then it should be obvious that the beast with seven heads and ten horns in Rev 17 must be the next phase of that same power.

So the logical historical progression would be as illustrated here;

1. The seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 12 = Pagan Rome.

2. The seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 13 = Papal Rome.

3. The seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 17 = Revived papal Rome; after the healing of the head wound.

Now since it becomes clear that these three beasts of Rev 12, 13 & 17 are different phases of the same power, the other facts about what the seven heads and ten horns represent can be more clearly defined.

If the beast of Revelation 17 represents Papal Rome after its head wound is healed, then the seven heads on that beast could not represent world empires beginning as far back as Babylon or Assyria or the other myriad of beliefs proposed in the Christian church. Here after will be proven what the seven heads represent.

Please open your bible to Revelation 17 and take these corroborative topics point by point.

(Father, in Jesus' name please bless the understanding of your word, Amen)

Revelation 17 begins with the angel who is "holding" (hasn't been poured our yet), one of the bowls of the seven last plagues, taking John in ‘the Spirit’ to the future to witness the judgment of the whore. We as Adventists know Judgment of the dead began in 1844, so being shown the ‘judgment’ of the whore must point to some time after 1844.

The whore has already received the head wound of Rev. 13:3 and is seen here ‘in the wilderness’. Meaning she hasn’t regained the political power and universal supremacy like she had during the 1260 years of the second phase of Rome in the dark ages.

The woman has a name written on her forehead ‘The Mother of Harlots’, so she must have daughters (churches) who are following her doctrines at this time. In 1844 when the sealed book of Daniel was unlocked and the proclamation of the day of Judgment began, the majority of Protestant Churches rejected the Atonement message and remained with the harlot in her false doctrines. They did not yet follow Gods' leading to "come out of her my people". This one text proves the time frame, because a mother can’t be a mother until she has children.

Concerning these Daughters;

“Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14 announcing the fall of Babylon, must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the Judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Romish Church, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation, in a message which is yet future, the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise, these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and his blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel, "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty; for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel,--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." {GC 1888 382.3}

Here in Rev 17: 6 the whorish Mother is still drunk with the blood of the saints which she drank during the dark ages.

"…the beast that was and is not" in verse 8, refers to the combination of political and church powers which previously made up the second phase of the beast of Rev 13 in the dark ages. It had been wounded by the taking of that political power away, and is in this not fully healed, wounded condition in Revelation's vision of the future time frame. The full power of the religious-political beast is not restored until the miraculous appearing of the Eighth king.

One of the conditions of the 1929 Lateran treaty instituted by Mussolini was that the Vatican would have no political power. I would say they are now in breach of that treaty wouldn't you?

"…and shall rise" points forward to a time when political powers give their strength to the church again.

"…shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." Points even further ahead, showing that after the ‘1000 years of judgment’, e.g. ‘the bottomless pit’, they shall be resurrected and destroyed in the second death, or what is known as 'Perdition' in scripture.

These points illustrate that to John was revealed the judgment of the whore some time after the beginning of the judgment. This Refines the time frame between 1844 and the 2nd coming of Jesus.

The following text reveals specifically what day John saw in his prophetic vision.

“And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”

‘Five are fallen; before the day John is witnessing in vision, the five previous kings of the seven have already come and died.

‘One is’; John was taken into the future to after the fall of the fifth king, and is seeing in vision the time frame of the sixth king, the one who 'is' alive during the vision.

The bible never gives symbolic meaning to interpreted texts. Example; further in Rev 17 verse 10 says, "The waters you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages", the interpretation has been given. The waters ARE diverse peoples covering the whole world. So when in the same chapter the seven heads ARE ‘7 kings’ AND ‘7 hills’ this cannot be interpreted symbolically because the interpretation is given.

Rome has been called ‘the city of Seven Hills’ since before being called Rome.

The seven heads are seven kings which come from the seven hills, or more specifically ‘the Seven last Popes of Rome’.

The healing of the head wound began in 1929 when through the Lateran treaty Mussolini gave the pope his kingship back. So logically all we have to do is count the popes since 1929 and find out where we are in the scope of the end time. According to this logic, Pope John Paul II was this sixth king. He would have been the one who ‘is’ alive and being judged with rest of the fallen church during the vision John saw.

The beginning of judgment for living people professing the name of God was in the time of John Paul II. In other words Jesus had crossed over from judging the dead to judging the living during those days. In this vision we are privy to seeing only the judgment of the fallen church.

But God’s true followers are also being judged. Our cases have come before the judgment throne of God. We are the Laodicea church, which literally means ‘THE JUDGED PEOPLE’!

We are now in the time of the Seventh King who must remain for a ‘short space’ or ‘little time’. Pope Benedict XVI has been in office 6 years as of April 19th, 2011, and is 84 years old. Praise God, Jesus will be here very soon. This is not time setting because every one of the seven kings could have lived to be 120 or only in office for a month. God controls their length of life.

Son of Perdition

What comes next? Suddenly there’s an eighth king, and you won’t believe who that is.

Rev 17:11"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The term "Son of Perdition" is used for Satan and Judas in scripture, but in Rev 17 it is specifically aimed at the 8th successor of Papal Rome after the head wound is healed in 1929. The "Son of perdition" here is a hybrid of Satan appearing as "one of the seven" previous popes, the ultimate Son of perdition. By the world's understanding, this would be the "Anti-Christ".

“As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ, and the world that has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings.”--5BC 1105, 1106 (1900). {LDE 168.3}

Here it is clear that Satan first will come impersonating a man. Think about it, Satan knows that the Spirit of Elijah must come first before Jesus comes, so to counterfeit this, he will appear as a false prophet first, and then when the plagues are falling he will appear as Jesus to try to deceive the elect.

“As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ.”

This quote from the Great Controversy is in the 39th chapter called ‘The Time of Trouble’. Every Seventh Day Adventist Scholar worth his salt knows two things relative to the Great Controversy…

One; that the Great Controversy was written linearly, from the beginning of the Christian church after Christ- to the second coming of Christ, linearly.

Two; that the great “Time of Trouble” is after probation closes!

Well if Satan appears as Jesus after probation ends, then no one can be deceived any longer. That’s why Matthew 24:24 says; “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” When Satan appears as Jesus, it is after probation closes, and it’s too late to deceive the elect. That’s why it’s not possible.

But previously in chapter 38 of the GC, called “The Final Warning”, deliberately named to illustrate that this portion occurs before probation ends, it begins by quoting Rev 18 ‘Babylon has become inhabited by demons’. When Satan appears as an angel of light in the form of a fallen pope it begins the final warning, then comes the end of probation, and while the plagues are falling Satan will attempt to impersonate Jesus. Too late to deceive the elect!

Soul Train

This next quote is from Early Writings, in the middle of a chapter about the dead appearing to come back to earth in a satanic attempt to deceive the people. Try to keep that in mind while reading it in context. This is one of the best visions Mrs. White had to warn us what will happen in the last days. We need to be prepared for this delusion.

‘I saw the rapidity with which this delusion (ghosts) was spreading. A train of cars was shown me, going with the speed of lightning. The angel bade me look carefully. I fixed my eyes upon the train. It seemed that the whole world was on board, that there could not be one left. Said the angel, "They are binding in bundles ready to burn." Then he showed me the conductor, who appeared like a stately, fair person, whom all the passengers looked up to and reverenced. I was perplexed and asked my attending angel who it was. He said, "It is Satan. He is the conductor in the form of an angel of light. He has taken the world captive. They are given over to strong delusions, to believe a lie, that they may be damned. This agent, the next highest in order to him, is the engineer, and other of his agents are employed in different offices as he may need them, and they are all going with lightning speed to perdition”.’ Early Writings (1882), page 89

Notice how in this vision it was a Satan appearing like a ‘stately fair person’ that the ‘whole world looked up to and reverenced’. Before this vision Mrs. White had seen Jesus many times, so if Satan was appearing in the form of Jesus she would have seen it. It is not a false appearing of Jesus that people are in reverence here, it is someone who the whole world reveres appearing to come from God as an angel of light.

He leads them “with lightning speed to perdition”. The eighth king also goes “into perdition” In Rev 17. This vision that Mrs White had was warning us about is the grand satanic delusion that the whole world will be deceived by, initiated by the eighth papal king, the son of perdition.

Rev 17: 6 "And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.

John, who wrote Revelation, had walked with Jesus and was the last remaining living Apostle. In this vision he was taken to see the time of John Paul II. When he saw what was going to happen from that point to the end, it was so spectacular by his eyes that even he "wondered after the beast". The angel had to stop him in the vision and said "why did you wonder with great admiration? Let me tell you of the mystery of the woman..."

Did the world love John Paul II the one who ‘is’ in John’s Rev 17 vision? He was the most beloved and photographed Pope ever. That’s why Revelation uses the word ‘is’ for the sixth king. I believe JPII will be the one satanically impersonated.

Revelation 18:1, ‘And after these things (the coming of the eighth king in chapter 17) I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

Why does it repeat the word fallen? In Chapter 17 it says "five have fallen". Here in chapter 18 the proclamation "fallen, fallen" is a reference to the eighth pope who will appear to have been resurrected, but it is Satan who has ALREADY fallen from heaven. Twice fallen also means the “next phase” element of this power. The Pope is the ‘head’ of the beast, but in Rev 17 the power is with the ten horns that ‘lend’ their power to the beast for one hour. (Covered later)

When the false resurrection of the pope occurs in anti-Christ fashion (the satanic counterfeit of the return of Elijah) we, Gods people, will be strengthened by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit/ later rain to proclaim this information to the world (Babylon is fallen again). The Catholic Church and all of the fallen Babylon churches will be inhabited by demons at the same time the loud cry commences.

We have been proclaiming this message for so long, that the obvious implications are over looked; mainly the fact that we will be able to point to this prophetic fulfillment to the world when it occurs, and it will strengthen our understanding and faith that God has warned and prepared us. This verse from ‘Early Writings’ continued from page 89 above confirms this;

“I asked the angel if there were none left. He bade me look in an opposite direction, and I saw a little company traveling a narrow pathway (See; ‘Bridge of the Red Heifer’). All seemed to be firmly united, bound together by the truth, in bundles, or companies. Said the angel, "The third angel is binding, or sealing, them in bundles for the heavenly garner." This little company looked careworn, as if they had passed through severe trials and conflicts. And it appeared as if the sun had just risen from behind a cloud and shone upon their countenances, causing them to look triumphant, as if their victories were nearly won. I saw that the Lord has given the world opportunity to discover the snare.” {ER pg. 89}

‘But while Satan works with his lying wonders, the time will be fulfilled foretold in the Revelation and the mighty angel that shall lighten the earth with his glory will proclaim the fall of Babylon, and call upon God's people to forsake her (RH Dec. 13, 1892). {7BC 985.2}

When the Seventh king dies, the remnant will be brought into one accord seeing the fulfillment, and the chaff will be blown out as foretold here.

‘The forms of the dead will appear, through the cunning device of Satan, and many will link up with the one who loveth and maketh a lie. I warn our people that right among us some will turn away from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and by them the truth will be evil spoken of.’ {LDE 171.1}

The question has been asked, Do you not believe that we should pray to the dead apostles and saints? No; for this would teach for doctrine not a "Thus saith the Lord," but the "thus saith" of the man of sin, "the son of perdition; who opposeth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."--Ms 163, 1897, pp. 8, 9. ("The Third Angel's Message," December 17, 1897.)

Everything Mrs. White proclaimed about the 3 angels message being in order (1, 2, 3) is exactly right and is what is needed to be ready for the loud cry. Ellen White clearly said the loud cry would not be ‘suspended’ on time, which is supported by this theory. The first seven kings could have come and gone in a year if God had wanted it that way, or each king could have lived in office 100 years.

When the eighth king comes and the devil is in power he will be enraged against us, and after receiving the authority from the popular movement in America, enforce the Sunday law in support of his message. The citizens will force the government to support him and then the protestant churches will set up the image to the beast.

‘(In those days) Rebellion against God's holy law will be fully ripe. But the true leader of all this rebellion is Satan clothed as an angel of light. Men will be deceived and will exalt him to the place of God, and deify him. But Omnipotence will interpose, and to the apostate churches that unite in the exaltation of Satan, the sentence will go forth, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" [Rev. 18:8].--TM 62 (1893). {LDE 168.2}

From the Great Controversy;

“The apostle Paul warned the church not to look for the coming of Christ in his day. “That day shall not come,” he says, “except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.” [2 Thessalonians 2:3.] Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of the reign of the “man of sin,” can we look for the advent of our Lord. The “man of sin,” which is also styled the “mystery of iniquity,” the “son of perdition,” and “that wicked,” represents the papacy, which, as foretold in prophecy, was to maintain its supremacy for 1260 years. This period ended in 1798 (the head wound). The coming of Christ could not take place before that time. Paul covers with his caution the whole of the Christian dispensation down to the year 1798. It is this side of that time that the message of Christ’s second coming is to be proclaimed.

No such message has ever been given in past ages. Paul, as we have seen, did not preach it; he pointed his brethren into the then far-distant future for the coming of the Lord. The reformers did not proclaim it. Martin Luther placed the Judgment about three hundred years in the future from his day. But since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the Judgment near. {GC88 356.2}

The image to the beast.

“I saw that the two-horned beast (America) had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the (death) decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots (Papacy); that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother.” From the Spalding and Magan collection Page 4 Paragraph 2.

This next quote proves that the Protestant churches are the “ten kings” who lend their power to the Papacy.

“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” Revelation 17:12, 13. As we approach the last crisis, it is of vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath.

"These have one mind." There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. "And shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Thus is manifested the same arbitrary, oppressive power against religious liberty, freedom to worship God according to the dictates of conscience, as was manifested by the papacy, when in the past it persecuted those who dared to refuse to conform with the religious rites and ceremonies of Romanism.”

“We must examine well the foundation of our hope, for we shall have to give a reason for it from the Scriptures. This delusion will spread, and we shall have to contend with it face to face; and unless we are prepared for it, we shall be ensnared and overcome. But if we do what we can on our part to be ready for the conflict that is just before us, God will do His part, and His all-powerful arm will protect us. He would sooner send every angel out of glory to the relief of faithful souls, to make a hedge about them, than have them deceived and led away by the lying wonders of Satan.”

Please give me your input, love brother James.

http://eighthking.blogspot.com/2011/12/whos-is-anti-christ-eighth-king-of-rev.html

[Gibs]

I totally agree that the eighth king of Rev. 17 is Satan.

Also I would point out EGW and A T Jones neither one agreed on all that was promoted by the church on prophecy.

Here is one from EGW,

In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

If you read carefully from Rev 13:11 on through to the end of the chapter you will find you can not separate it. I holds together, And he, and he, and he.

A T J stated that the 42 months of Rev 13 could not happen until AFTER the deadly wound is healed. I find he is right.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Professor Edwin de Kock, in his new book (not in print yet, only in digital form), "The Seven Heads and Ten Horns in Daniel and the Revelation" (200 pages), also holds to this view, that the 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17 is Satan.

Actually, this view is pretty common.

Michael Scheifler holds to the 8-popes view as well, but he (like I) is not dogmatic about it:

http://biblelight.net/satan.htm

It's not the primary application, but we'll have to wait and see how it pans out to know for sure.

While it is Satan that is going into perdition, we must remember, that this also means it is the Papacy going into perdition.

How so?

Satan is simply the demon possessing the beast. When the Papacy goes into perdition, it is Satan going into perdition, and vice versa. Satan will work wonders "through" the Papacy. He is the king of the Papacy. The chief Pope.

The Antichrist is the Papacy, and it is Satan (Dragon) possessing the Papacy (Beast).

Just like Lucifer possessed the serpent to deceive Eve, so likewise Satan will deceive the world by possessing the Beast (the Papacy) to deceive the woman (the Church) in the last days, and convince them to take a bite out of the forbidden fruit (Sunday Sacredness).

[phkrause]

I buy that more than Satan being the antichrist Lysimachus.

[12tribes]

The beast in Rev 17 comes out of the bottomless pit

Revelation 17:8

(8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

While the 1st beast in Rev 13 comes out of the water

Revelation 13:1

(1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The woman of 17 sits upon the water

Revelation 17:1

(1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

The woman of 17 and the beast of 17 cannot be the same cause the beast along with the horns will hate the whore and burn her with fire

Revelation 17:16-17

(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Notice that it is a plague angel that gives the message of Rev 17

Revelation 17:1

(1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

[Gibs]

12tribes,

The one to look at is the one coming up out of the earth where he was cast.

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

He speaks as a dragon because he is what is like a dragon but looks like a lamb or an imperaonation of the Lamb.

At the end of the chapter he is called a man. In the hands of God who will subdue him, read,

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

He is the 666 and he is THE antichrist, all others are AN antichrist after him their father the devil.

Not a popular view? No, but for any who care to consider.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

The beast in Rev 17 comes out of the bottomless pit

Revelation 17:8

(8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

While the 1st beast in Rev 13 comes out of the water

Revelation 13:1

(1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The woman of 17 sits upon the water

Revelation 17:1

(1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

The woman of 17 and the beast of 17 cannot be the same cause the beast along with the horns will hate the whore and burn her with fire

Revelation 17:16-17

(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Notice that it is a plague angel that gives the message of Rev 17

Revelation 17:1

(1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters

But the horns, 12tribes, are not the same as the beast. Dispensationalists use the argument that the Papacy cannot be the Antichrist, because the Papacy is the Whore, and since the Whore is a different object from the beast she rides, then the Beast cannot be the Papacy.

So in your argument, you are actually lending them a favor and helping to validate their position.

The Sea Beast of Revelation 13 comes up out of the Sea, but then receives the deadly wound.

This beast's wound is healing now through the Secret Societies and Jesuit Order (Bottomless Pit).

So when it resurrects, it will come up OUT of the Bottomless Pit, as opposed to before when it came up out of the Sea.

There is absolutely no way to make the Harlot Woman a completely separate entity from the Beast she rides, and I demonstrate this soundly and exegetically in my following Paper:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/59749142/The-Whore-of-Babylon-Antichrist#full

Please notice my quotes from Louis F. Were's "The Woman and the Beast in The Book of Revelation". I encourage you to read his book.

http://www.lmn.org/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=37&products_id=2867

[12tribes]

But the horns, 12tribes, are not the same as the beast. Dispensationalists use the argument that the Papacy cannot be the Antichrist, because the Papacy is the Whore, and since the Whore is a different object from the beast she rides, then the Beast cannot be the Papacy.

So in your argument, you are actually lending them a favor and helping to validate their position.

The Sea Beast of Revelation 13 comes up out of the Sea, but then receives the deadly wound.

This beast's wound is healing now through the Secret Societies and Jesuit Order (Bottomless Pit).

So when it resurrects, it will come up OUT of the Bottomless Pit, as opposed to before when it came up out of the Sea.

There is absolutely no way to make the Harlot Woman a completely separate entity from the Beast she rides, and I demonstrate this soundly and exegetically in my following Paper:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/59749142/The-Whore-of-Babylon-Antichrist#full

Please notice my quotes from Louis F. Were's "The Woman and the Beast in The Book of Revelation". I encourage you to read his book.

http://www.lmn.org/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=37&products_id=2867

[cheddar]

12tribes,

The one to look at is the one coming up out of the earth where he was cast.

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

He speaks as a dragon because he is what is like a dragon but looks like a lamb or an imperaonation of the Lamb.

At the end of the chapter he is called a man. In the hands of God who will subdue him, read,

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

He is the 666 and he is THE antichrist, all others are AN antichrist after him their father the devil.

Not a popular view? No, but for any who care to consider.

[Lysimachus]

The Papacy is the antichrist but the beast from the bottomless pit I see as the same beast in Rev 11 who also comes out of the bottomless pit after the 42 months are finished 538-1798 and lasted for 3.5 days in the french revolution. The beast from the bottomless pit in chapter 11 was revolutionary France

[Lysimachus]

Cheddar,

The Beast from the Bottomless Pit is not the Papacy, but Atheistic Communism. But Atheistic Communism was created BY the Papacy. All the Secret Societies are interconnected with this.

You obviously do not know Adventist eschatology, lol.

You could say everything wicked is Satan if you want. You seem to forget that Satan is working through all these mediums. To flat out say "It's just Satan", is superficial, and simply makes the symbolism out to be foolish, because every wicked entity is Satan, but Satan working through those entities.

So don't get all hung up.

Get over to our side Cheddar, and quit foolin around.

We need you.

[cheddar]

You obviously do not know Adventist eschatology, lol.

I would rather study truth than historical error propped up by fear tactics.

Ellen White is on my side on this issue as Gibs timely quote pointed out.

Satan's impersonation of Jesus Christ is the focus of Daniel and Revelation not the papacy.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

You obviously do not know Adventist eschatology, lol.

I would rather study truth than historical error propped up by fear tactics.

Ellen White is on my side on this issue as Gibs timely quote pointed out.

Satan's impersonation of Jesus Christ is the focus of Daniel and Revelation not the papacy.

Tell me, when Scriptures speak of the Serpent, is it is speaking of the serpent itself? Or Satan possessing the Serpent?

Obviously it's both.

To speak of the Papacy is to speak of Satan, because it is Satan that is speaking through the Papacy. They are one and the same, yet in a sense not the same.

[cheddar]

Tell me, when Scriptures speak of the Serpent, is it is speaking of the serpent itself? Or Satan possessing the Serpent?

Obviously it's both.

To speak of the Papacy is to speak of Satan, because it is Satan that is speaking through the Papacy. They are one and the same, yet in a sense not the same.

You historicists make me laugh.

You will preach Ellen White till you are blue in the face but when it comes to her vision about Satan’s impersonation you go completely silent.

Protestants aren’t the only ones who teach about an evil anti-Christ figure who comes at the end of the world, Ellen White does too!

Let me ask you something – when Satan comes as Jesus will he be working thru the papacy? No, for the first time in history he will take matters into his own hands and not work thru anyone.

This event is more significant than anything the papacy has done or ever will do.

But I know I’m preaching to the choir with you.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Tell me, when Scriptures speak of the Serpent, is it is speaking of the serpent itself? Or Satan possessing the Serpent?

Obviously it's both.

To speak of the Papacy is to speak of Satan, because it is Satan that is speaking through the Papacy. They are one and the same, yet in a sense not the same.

You historicists make me laugh.

You will preach Ellen White till you are blue in the face but when it comes to her vision about Satan’s impersonation you go completely silent.

Protestants aren’t the only ones who teach about an evil anti-Christ figure who comes at the end of the world, Ellen White does too!

Let me ask you something – when Satan comes as Jesus will he be working thru the papacy? No, for the first time in history he will take matters into his own hands and not work thru anyone.

This event is more significant than anything the papacy has done or ever will do.

But I know I’m preaching to the choir with you.

You're not a Historicist?

WhaT??

That is WORSE than the abomination of desolation. lol

[Lysimachus]

Cheddar,

I want you to listen this.

LISTEN toooo ittt. You're going to listen to it until you tell me you have listened it from beginning to end. Now sit down, and do exactly as I say. lol

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/programs/futurism.m3u

Dooo it. I will not give you any peace until you have listened to it FULLY from beginning to end. Remember that!

[jamesonofthunder]

To test the Spirit on what was written here, wipe the slate clean for a moment and look at this issue with this in mind please, The main point in what I know I was inspired is this;

The beast in Revelation 12, "the great Red Dragon" is the foundational power that becomes the beast in Rev 13.

The beast in Rev 13 receives his seat (throne) and authority (scepter) from the beast of Rev 12 and is seen "coming up out of the sea, having ten horns, and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy."

So to this point we have Pagan Rome giving its power over to Papal Rome, with blasphemy coming out of the mouth of the Pope. This covers the whole period in earths history from the fall of Greece 'till the wound inflicted on the head of the Papal power in 1798 when Napoleons General took the pope hostage and he died in exile.

Revelation 13 identifies this power as coming up out of the sea "and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation" so it would be a world wide religious super power with attributes of the four powers before them, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

The woman, or church, sits on the beast, which is the political powers she wields, comprised of all the nations who giver her their strength. Like Germany or France before the revolution against this whore.

At the end of this 1260 year period the land beast (USA) arrives, and this power would (in the future) "exercise all the authority of the first beast in his sight. And make the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose death-stroke was healed." But it is not immediate. There is a growth process. After the head wound is healed in 1929 there are seven kings who re-establish the papal authority. Then when Satan comes as the eighth king, He shows miracles and power is given. That is when the land beast enforces the mark.

Revelation 12, 13 and 17 is showing an evolution of the power of the beast. This understanding powerfully harmonizes all the scriptures associated with the Anti-Christ beast power.

[M. T. Cross]

Like Germany or France before the revolution against this whore.

I am reading all this with great fascination.

Little clarification tho - why is she a whore? Is this just a term of dislike, or is she actually selling her body for money...

[jamesonofthunder]

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Like Germany or France before the revolution against this whore.

I am reading all this with great fascination.

Little clarification tho - why is she a whore? Is this just a term of dislike, or is she actually selling her body for money...

That is an excellent question, This quote is taken from the Great Controversy and answers your question perfectly. God bless you.

"In Revelation 14 the first angel is followed by a second proclaiming: “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” Revelation 14:8. The term “Babylon” is derived from “Babel,” and signifies confusion. It is employed in Scripture to designate the various forms of false or apostate religion. In Revelation 17 Babylon is represented as a woman—a figure which is used in the Bible as the symbol of a church, a virtuous woman representing a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church. {GC 381.1}

In the Bible the sacred and enduring character of the relation that exists between Christ and His church is represented by the union of marriage. The Lord has joined His people to Himself by a solemn covenant, He promising to be their God, and they pledging themselves to be His and His alone. He declares: “I will betroth thee unto Me forever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies.” Hosea 2:19. And, again: “I am married unto you.” Jeremiah 3:14. And Paul employs the same figure in the New Testament when he says: “I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:2. {GC 381.2}

The unfaithfulness of the church to Christ in permitting her confidence and affection to be turned from Him, and allowing the love of worldly things to occupy the soul, is likened to the violation of the marriage vow. The sin of Israel in departing from the Lord is presented under this figure; and the wonderful love of God which they thus despised is touchingly portrayed: “I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest Mine.” “And thou wast exceeding beautiful and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee.... But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown.” “As a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord;” “as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!” Ezekiel 16:8, 13-15, 32; Jeremiah 3:20. {GC 381.3}

In the New Testament, language very similar is addressed to professed Christians who seek the friendship of the world above the favor of God. Says the apostle James: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” {GC 382.1}

The woman (Babylon) of Revelation 17 is described as “arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness:...and upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots.” Says the prophet: “I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” Babylon is further declared to be “that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:4-6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome. And no other power could be so truly declared “drunken with the blood of the saints” as that church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with “the kings of the earth.” It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation. {GC 382.2}

Babylon is said to be “the mother of harlots.” By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God’s people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: “Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.” But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel—the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. “Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown.” Ezekiel 16:14, 15. {GC 382.3}

Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome’s example of iniquitous connection with “the kings of the earth”—the state churches, by their relation to secular governments; and other denominations, by seeking the favor of the world. And the term “Babylon”—confusion—may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories. {GC 383.1}

[Gibs]

The Great Whore commits fornication with another master, Read,

Re 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Re 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

After the head wound is healed in 1929 there are seven kings who re-establish the papal authority.

It would be impossible to say that the head wound was healed in 1929. There are a number of convincing reasons why we cannot say that the wound was healed in 1929.

First off, the concordat that was signed between the papacy and the Italian government in 1929 had to do with the wound the papacy received in 1870 and not the one it received in 1798.

Secondly, the book of Revelation makes it clear as we shall see that the United States, not Italy, would be the nation to bring about the healing of the wound.

More significantly yet is the fact that the whole world did not wonder after the papacy nor was an image of the and to it erected nor was its mark enforced as a result of what occurred in 1929.

So where then did many Adventists get the idea that the wound was healed in 1929? The answer is found in an article that appeared in the San Francisco Chronicle the very day that the 1929 Concordat was signed.

The headline on the front page of the newspaper read:

"VATICAN AGAIN AT PEACE WITH ITALY AFTER LONG QUARREL"

In a smaller letters appeared the following words:

"Heal Wound of Many Years."

The part of the article that was most significant to Adventists was this:

"The Roman question tonight was a thing of the past and the Vatican was at peace with Italy. The formal accomplishment of this today was the exchange of signatures in the historic Palace of St. John Leteran by two noteworthy plenipotentiaries, Cardinal Gasparri for Pope Pius XI and Premier Mussolini for King Victor Emmanuel III.

"In affixing the autographs to the memorable document, healing the wound which has festered since 1870 [not since 1798], extreme cordiality was displayed on both sides." The San Francisco Chronicle, February 11, 1929, p. 1. Emphasis supplied.

The New York Times reported on this important event:

"The Pope is again an independent sovereign ruler, as he was throughout the middle Ages, though his temporal realm, established today, is the most microscopic independent State in the world, and probably the smallest in all history." The New York Times, Tuesday, February 12, 1929, Emphasis supplied.

So we see that the San Francisco Article makes it quite clear that the wound that was healed in 1929 was the one given the papacy in 1870 and not the one she received in 1798.

Let's not take me wrong....what happened in 1929 was indeed very significant. The recovery of temporal sovereignty by the papacy was an important occurrence no doubt. We might go so far as to say that the wounds of the papacy began to be healed in that year. But the wound was NOT "healed" in that year.

In order for the wound to be healed, the secular powers of the world must give her back the sword.

The wound has been HEALING since 1798, but it will not be fully healed until the National Sunday Law is enforced, and all the world wonders after the beast.

[Lysimachus]

Revelation 12, 13 and 17 is showing an evolution of the power of the beast. This understanding powerfully harmonizes all the scriptures associated with the Anti-Christ beast power.

I agree with this. Of course, has this not always been the traditional Adventist understanding?

Keep in mind, however, that the end of Revelation 12 is the final persecution against God's Church. Revelation 13, however, backs up a little before going forward to the very end again.

Then Revelation 17 backs up once again....describing her persecutions in the Dark Ages (drunken with the blood of the saints), and sweeping through up to the end of time.

But once again, it recapitulates and describes the 7 stages of the Dragon beginning with the Empire of Babylon, ending with finally Lucifer the 8th.

It may be possible that this interpretation has a secondary application to the last end-time Popes, but I'm not banking on it unless I see it happen.

1798 was not learned of until the very year itself and after. In order to know if a prophetic interpretation is true or not, one must look back in retrospect to see if it has been fulfilled as was predicted.

[EDITED]

[Gibs]

Lysimachus,

I would point out the king power, crowns, where on the heads in Rev 12: but right from verse one of Rev 13: we see the crowns have been changed to the horns.

SDA theology has not recognized the reason or importance of this. It means a whole new concept of Rev 13: must be realized.

Do you have any take on that?

I have plenty but am not a historicist but a realist and not of any of the terms given to peoples ideas of prophecy.

I may give more later but am undecided about it yet.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

Lysimachus,

I would point out the king power, crowns, where on the heads in Rev 12: but right from verse one of Rev 13: we see the crowns have been changed to the horns.

SDA theology has not recognized the reason or importance of this. It means a whole new concept of Rev 13: must be realized.

Do you have any take on that?

I have plenty but am not a historicist but a realist and not of any of the terms given to peoples ideas of prophecy.

I may give more later but am undecided about it yet.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

In 12 the heads have crowns

Revelation 12:3

(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The 10 horns in 12 do not have crowns while in 13 the horns have crowns but not the heads

Revelation 13:1

(1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

[jamesonofthunder]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Lysimachus,

I would point out the king power, crowns, where on the heads in Rev 12: but right from verse one of Rev 13: we see the crowns have been changed to the horns.

SDA theology has not recognized the reason or importance of this. It means a whole new concept of Rev 13: must be realized.

Do you have any take on that?

I have plenty but am not a historicist but a realist and not of any of the terms given to peoples ideas of prophecy.

I may give more later but am undecided about it yet.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

In 12 the heads have crowns

Revelation 12:3

(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The 10 horns in 12 do not have crowns while in 13 the horns have crowns but not the heads

Revelation 13:1

(1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

If you want to really blow your mind, why does Mrs. White say the ten crowns of Rev 17, that lend their power to the beast for one hour, are the protestant churches. We have to find harmony there.

Mrs. White did not write the meaning of every scripture point blank. Some times God gave her clues for us to find later so the end time people (144,000) will actually have a greater knowledge of the glory of the Lord than she was permitted.