Who is the Anti-Christ? The Eighth King of Revelation 17!

[skyblue888]

Rev.17:12 clearly states that the ten horns are ten kings. In the same verse we are told that these horns have received no kingdom as yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. The churches of Protestantism do not have a kingdom as yet but when they shall receive power from the State they will receive a kingdom.

"Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Rev.17:1,2.

These kings are churches. Mrs. White cites Rev.17:1,2 and makes this comment:

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the winde of the wrath of her fornication." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7,983.

Notice that in verse 2 it says "the kings of the earth". Mrs. White identifies these kings as churches who have not received a kingom yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. And then she adds this:

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White, 7 B.C.983.

"These (churches) have one mind and shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Verse 13.

________________

Seven kings, 5 have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come. And there is also the eighth.

The point of reference is 1798 as given in verse 3 of the chapter.

By 1798 5 had fallen.

5.Papal Rome at the hand of Atheistic France

4.Pagan Rome at the hand of the barbarian tribes

3.Greece.

2.Medo-Persia

1.Babylon

In 1798 the one that is is Atheistic France

And the one that is yet to come after 1798 is Apostate Protestantism when it shall receive power from the State and shall speak as a dragon.

And the eighth which is of the seven is the papal power when her deadly wound is finally healed as Apostate protestantism shall give it its power.

sky

[jamesonofthunder]

Rev.17:12 clearly states that the ten horns are ten kings. In the same verse we are told that these horns have received no kingdom as yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. The churches of Protestantism do not have a kingdom as yet but when they shall receive power from the State they will receive a kingdom.

"Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Rev.17:1,2.

These kings are churches. Mrs. White cites Rev.17:1,2 and makes this comment:

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the winde of the wrath of her fornication." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7,983.

Notice that in verse 2 it says "the kings of the earth". Mrs. White identifies these kings as churches who have not received a kingom yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. And then she adds this:

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White, 7 B.C.983.

"These (churches) have one mind and shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Verse 13.

To this point you are correct.

On the rest you are wrong. God bless you in your pursuit of truth..

[jamesonofthunder]

Seven kings, 5 have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come. And there is also the eighth.

The point of reference is 1798 as given in verse 3 of the chapter.

By 1798 5 had fallen.

5.Papal Rome at the hand of Atheistic France

4.Pagan Rome at the hand of the barbarian tribes

3.Greece.

2.Medo-Persia

1.Babylon

In 1798 the one that is is Atheistic France

And the one that is yet to come after 1798 is Apostate Protestantism when it shall receive power from the State and shall speak as a dragon.

And the eighth which is of the seven is the papal power when her deadly wound is finally healed as Apostate protestantism shall give it its power.

sky

May I ask something why do you think 1798 is the perspective of the vision? Also why would you think the beast receiving the head wound (Papal Rome at the hand of France) would be a kingdom of it's own? Wouldn't they be redundant at that point? Plus where do fit the fact that the Papal empire lasted 1260 years between #4 and #5 in your list?

[skyblue888]

Remember how the text says that the eighth is of the seven, who was, is not, and is again. It can only be referring to the papal power. Before 1798 the papacy was, after 1798 is not, (having lost her temporal supremacy, deadly wound) and is again when apostate protestantism shall give it its power which it will have received from the state.

seven: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome, Papal Rome, Atheistic France, Apostate Protestantism.

As you can see, Papal Rome is of the seven, was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again for a short time but going to perdition when at the time of the sixth plague the "waters" upon which she was sitting will be dried up, that is, the people of this earth will turn their back on her and bring her down to the pit. This is the drying up of the River Euprates in these last days which will prepare the way for the return of Christ with His saints, the kings of the East.

sky

[skyblue888]

Verse 3 of Rev.17 says, "So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness and I saw the woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy..."

John was taken in vision to the time when the papacy received her deadly wound in 1798. Before 1798 the papacy reigned as a queen. She was the head, not the tail. But in 1798 she went to the "wilderness" being wounded to death. To be in the "wilderness" means to be persecuted.

In Rev.12:6 we are told that the church of Christ was persecuted and had to go into the "wilderness" for 1260 years. During this time she was persecuted. That is what it means to go into the "wilderness."

Back to you james.

sky

[jamesonofthunder]

seven: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome, Papal Rome, Atheistic France, Apostate Protestantism.

As you can see, Papal Rome is of the seven, was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again for a short time but going to perdition when at the time of the sixth plague the "waters" upon which she was sitting will be dried up, that is, the people of this earth will turn their back on her and bring her down to the pit. This is the drying up of the River Euprates in these last days which will prepare the way for the return of Christ with His saint, the kings of the East.

sky

You are quoting what Uriah Smith said. The same thing the Latter Day Saints and many churches agree with, but of which James White vehemently disagreed with.

Think about this...if the seventh Kingdom is apostate Protestantism, then why does Paul say The son of Perdition must come before the end? Is he from those churches?

[skyblue888]

I don't think Uriah Smith taught anything like this. Reference please, let alone the Latter Day Saints.

Why should it be so difficult to believe that the seventh is Apostate Protestantism when the book The Great Controversy, last chapters, make this crystal clear. Are we not expecting the apostate churches of protestantism to receive power from the State before they can enforce their dogmas as the papacy did in the Dark Ages, to enforce Sunday observance?

Mrs. White is also crystal clear as to who it is that will give its power to the beast, to the papacy. Read the statements I have quoted again and again and you will see that I have not come up with a private interpretation of my own.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Uriah Smith used the geographical method of interpretation for Rev.17. I am not. I am using the Gospel method of interpretation which is the correct method.

An example of that is the drying up of the River Euphrates in these last days. Rev.16:12. This "river" and the "waters" upon which the papacy sits are one and the same thing. These "waters" represent nations, peoples, tongues who support the papacy.

The symbolic name for these "waters" is Euphrates.

sky

[jamesonofthunder]

Verse 3 of Rev.17 says, "So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness and I saw the woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy..."

John the prophet was taken in vision to the time when the papacy received her deadly wound in 1798. Before 1798 the papacy reigned as a queen. She was the head, not the tail. But in 1798 she went to the "widerness" being wounded to death. To be in the "wilderness" means to be persecuted.

In Rev.12 we are told that the church of Christ was persecuted and had to go into the "wilderness" for 1260 years. During this time she was persecuted. That is what it means to go into the "wilderness."

Back to you james.

sky

Sorry but if you had fully read what I wrote, you would see where I believe I have been lead to stand on this issue.

Please read the article then come and ask me questions. Please don't make me restate what is already covered in the writing OK? Peace.

[jamesonofthunder]

Why should it be so difficult to believe that the seventh is Apostate Protestantism when the book The Great Controversy, last chapters, make this crystal clear. Are we not expecting the apostate churches of protestantism to receive power from the State before they can enforce their dogmas as the papacy did in the Dark Ages, to enforce Sunday observance?

Mrs. White is also crystal clear as to who it is that will give its power to the beast, to the papacy. Read the statements I have quoted again and again and you will see that I have not come up with a private interpretation of my own.

sky

From the end of the great Controversy

Chapter 38—The Final Warning

“I saw another angel come down from Heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.” “And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” [Revelation 18:1, 2, 4.] {GC88 603.1}

This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel [Revelation 14:8] of Revelation 14, is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth, the minds of the people will become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they will continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the decalogue, until they are led to persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at naught in the contempt placed upon his Word and his people. As the teachings of Spiritualism are accepted by the churches, the restraint imposed upon the carnal heart is removed, and the profession of religion will become a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, and thus the influence of evil angels will be felt in the churches. {GC88 603.2}

You said quote; "Why should it be so difficult to believe that the seventh is Apostate Protestantism when the book The Great Controversy, last chapters, make this crystal clear."

So by your definition Babylon is just the Apostate Protestant churches, but the great Controversy refutes this statement.

"The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of Spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power,—all will be unmasked."

[jamesonofthunder]

The woman (Babylon) of Revelation 17 is described as “arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness:...and upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots.” Says the prophet: “I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” Babylon is further declared to be “that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:4-6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome.{GC 382.2}

[skyblue888]

If our point of reference for the 5 that have fallen and the one that is and the one that is yet to come is different from what is stated in verse 3, 1798, our interpretation will have to be false.

The point of reference of Rev.17 is, undeniably, 1798.

John was taken "in the Spirit" "into the wilderness" where he saw the papacy wounded to death. We know that this event took place in 1798. From there he could see that 5 had fallen, Papal Rome, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon, and that one was (atheistic France) and that one was yet to come (Apostate Protestantism) and then he saw that when Apostate Protestantism would receive a kingdom (power from the State) to enforce Sunday observance, (speaking as a dragon wielding the power of the State) the sins of Babylon would have reached unto heaven and he saw that it would give its power to the beast--papacy--and that is how her wound would be healed. He saw that the papacy which was, is not, is again, would rule the world again for a very short time and go to perdition when the "waters" upon which she sat would turn against her (sixth plague) and bring her down to the pit.

sky

[jamesonofthunder]

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience".—The Great Controversy, 588. {ChS 160.1}

[jamesonofthunder]

If our point of reference for the 5 that have fallen and the one that is and the one that is yet to come is different from what is stated in verse 3, 1798, our interpretation will have to be false.

The point of reference of Rev.17 is, undeniably, 1798.

John was taken "in the Spirit" "into the wilderness" where he saw the papacy wounded to death. We know that this event took place in 1798. From there he could see that 5 had fallen, Papal Rome, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon, and that one was (atheistic France) and that one was yet to come (Apostate Protestantism) and then he saw that when Apostate Protestantism would receive a kingdom (power from the State) to enforce Sunday observance, (speaking as a dragon wielding the power of the State) the sins of Babylon would have reached unto heaven and he saw that it would give its power to the beast--papacy--and that is how her wound would be healed. He saw that the papacy which was, is not, is again, would rule the world again for a very short time and go to perdition when the "waters" upon which she sat would turn against her (sixth plague) and bring her down to the pit.

sky

I totally agree John was taken into the future to witness the harlot after the head wound, and I agree that he saw her in the wilderness, or without her powers like she had in the dark ages. So this much we agree on... But notice also he was taken to see the "judgment" of the whore.

As an adventist believer, when did the "judgment" begin? 1844 correct? So this vision HAS to take place on or after 1844.

But in 1844 the Papacy had already received the deadly wound and remained in this state with no power or authority until 1929, so the beginning of the healing had not taken place yet.

1929 begins the count for the last seven kings.

[skyblue888]

Nice to see we agree on as much as we do.

The judgment of the great whore (Babylon the Great) takes place at the time of the sixth plague when the "waters" upon which she sits are "dried up" which means that the inhabitants of this earth will no longer support her and they will turn upon her and bring her down to the pit.

In 1929 the papacy did not regain her temporal supremacy. In order for her wound to be healed she must be able to rule as supreme. This has not yet happened.

In 1929 she merely was given back some estate that had been taken away from her.

sky

[jamesonofthunder]

Nice to see we agree on as much as we do.

The judgment of the great whore (Babylon the Great) takes place at the time of the sixth plague when the "waters" upon which she sits are "dried up" which means that the inhabitants of this earth will no longer support her and they will turn upon her and bring her down to the pit.

In 1929 the papacy did not regain her temporal supremacy. In order for her wound to be healed she must be able to rule as supreme. This has not yet happened.

In 1929 she merely was given back some estate that had been taken away from her.

sky

You are right, in 1929 the papacy did not regain her temporal supremacy. That will not occur until the eighth king when the whole world wonders after the beast.

But 1929 DID begin the healing of the wound, by giving the pope his Kingship back. He again became the king of the smallest nation on the planet.

After the head wound of 1798, prior to 1929 the pope had no power what so ever in the world. Our country in fact was against the pope even in political speeches by men like Abraham Lincoln in 1863.

“The common people see and hear the big, noisy wheels of the Southern Confederacy’s cars; they call they Jeff Davis, Lee, Toombs, Beauregard, Semmes, ect., and they honestly think that they are the motive power, the first cause of our troubles. But this is a mistake. The true motive power is secreted behind the thick walls of the Vatican, the colleges and schools of the Jesuits, the convents of the nuns, and the confessional boxes of Rome.

“I do not pretend to be a prophet. But though not a prophet, I see a very dark cloud on our horizon. And that dark cloud is coming from Rome. It is filled with tears of blood. It will rise and increase till its flanks will be torn by a flash of lightning, followed by a fearful peal of thunder. Then a cyclone, such as the world has never seen, will pass over this country, spreading ruin and desolation from north to south. After it is over, there will be long days of peace and prosperity: for Popery, with its Jesuits and merciless Inquisition, will have been for ever swept away from our country. Neither I nor you, but our children, will see those things.” Abraham Lincoln...

Many adventists believed in his time that the papacy was upset at these statements and had him assassinated. I agree.

[Twilight II]

Rev.17:12 clearly states that the ten horns are ten kings. In the same verse we are told that these horns have received no kingdom as yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. The churches of Protestantism do not have a kingdom as yet but when they shall receive power from the State they will receive a kingdom.

"Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Rev.17:1,2.

These kings are churches. Mrs. White cites Rev.17:1,2 and makes this comment:

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the winde of the wrath of her fornication." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7,983.

Notice that in verse 2 it says "the kings of the earth". Mrs. White identifies these kings as churches who have not received a kingom yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. And then she adds this:

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White, 7 B.C.983.

"These (churches) have one mind and shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Verse 13.

________________

Seven kings, 5 have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come. And there is also the eighth.

The point of reference is 1798 as given in verse 3 of the chapter.

By 1798 5 had fallen.

5.Papal Rome at the hand of Atheistic France

4.Pagan Rome at the hand of the barbarian tribes

3.Greece.

2.Medo-Persia

1.Babylon

In 1798 the one that is is Atheistic France

And the one that is yet to come after 1798 is Apostate Protestantism when it shall receive power from the State and shall speak as a dragon.

And the eighth which is of the seven is the papal power when her deadly wound is finally healed as Apostate protestantism shall give it its power.

sky

I agree with your assement of the kings Sky.

That fits in with Daniel.

[jamesonofthunder]

Nice to see we agree on as much as we do.

The judgment of the great whore (Babylon the Great) takes place at the time of the sixth plague when the "waters" upon which she sits are "dried up" which means that the inhabitants of this earth will no longer support her and they will turn upon her and bring her down to the pit.

sky

You really think that judgment of the whore begins when the plagues are falling? This is silly.

The angel that takes John to the future is still holding one of the plagues.

[jamesonofthunder]

I agree with your assessment of the kings Sky.

That fits in with Daniel.

Daniel sets the stage by showing what the beasts of Revelation would be founded on. The 4 kingdoms would then be picked up in Revelation in chapter 12 as the great red dragon. The last beast of Daniels vision.

So Revelation 12 begins where Daniel left off.

James White the founder of our church said;

"What power is represented by the beast in Revelation 13? To learn this, we go still further back, to chapter 12, where we find a power symbolized by a great red dragon (same as Daniels beast about Rome), which is the one next preceding the beast of chapter 13. The seven heads and ten horns upon both of these symbols show that they represent two phases of the same power. By universal consent of Protestant expositors, the great red dragon is considered a representative of Pagan Rome. The next phase presented by Rome after the Pagan form was the Papal. Rome Papal succeeded Rome Pagan. The dragon gave his seat, power, and great authority to the beast. Hence the beast can represent none other but Papal Rome."

So are you guys smarter or more filled with the Spirit of God than Mr. White was?

If the seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12 and 13 show they are two phases of the same power, then the seven heads and ten horns of Rev 17 MUST BE the next phase of Rome.

If the beast of Rev 17 is the next phase of Rome then there is NO WAY the seven heads represent the kingdoms as far back as Babylon.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I agree with your assessment of the kings Sky.

That fits in with Daniel.

Daniel sets the stage by showing what the beasts of Revelation would be founded on. The 4 kingdoms would then be picked up in Revelation in chapter 12 as the great red dragon. The last beast of Daniels vision.

So Revelation 12 begins where Daniel left off.

James White the founder of our church said;

"What power is represented by the beast in Revelation 13? To learn this, we go still further back, to chapter 12, where we find a power symbolized by a great red dragon (same as Daniels beast about Rome), which is the one next preceding the beast of chapter 13. The seven heads and ten horns upon both of these symbols show that they represent two phases of the same power. By universal consent of Protestant expositors, the great red dragon is considered a representative of Pagan Rome. The next phase presented by Rome after the Pagan form was the Papal. Rome Papal succeeded Rome Pagan. The dragon gave his seat, power, and great authority to the beast. Hence the beast can represent none other but Papal Rome."

So are you guys smarter or more filled with the Spirit of God than Mr. White was?

If the seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12 and 13 show they are two phases of the same power, then the seven heads and ten horns of Rev 17 MUST BE the next phase of Rome.

If the beast of Rev 17 is the next phase of Rome then there is NO WAY the seven heads represent the kingdoms as far back as Babylon.

I do not accept James White as a infallible source my friend.

It has to be shown from the bible and bible alone that James White was correct, then I can agree with his positions.

I firmly uphold Sola Scriptura as the basis for all doctrinal beliefs.

[12tribes]

I do not accept James White as a infallible source my friend.

It has to be shown from the bible and bible alone that James White was correct, then I can agree with his positions.

I firmly uphold Sola Scriptura as the basis for all doctrinal beliefs.

I agree with that

[12tribes]

The woman is the fallen church, the beast on which she rides is the mingling of church and state.

The heads on the beast are the leaders of the church that fornicate with the state powers.

The second phase of the beast has many papal heads but it is still signified by the number seven, here meaning completion till the end of the 1260 years when the last head of the church would receive the deadly wound.

Then comes the last (3rd) phase of the Roman power where the seven kings come from the Vatican church that sits on the seven hills.

The reason for the seven heads and ten horns on all three phases is to identify this power as the same as the first.

In Rev 17 the womans title on her forehead includes the apostate daughters who follow her doctrines. "The mother of Harlots".

The beast that the daughters influence is the Lamb like beast with two horns, of which through their influence begins to speak like the dragon. That's why the daughters are mentioned in the seal on the forehead of the whore in Rev 17 who rides the world powers.

The ten horns receive power for one hour and lend their power to the first beast who's deadly wound was healed. That's when America Cow taus to the Papacy who is being led by Satan (the eighth king) in the form of one of the previous popes. He is 'of the seven'.

Where is the Bible to support any of this?

[jamesonofthunder]

I do not accept James White as a infallible source my friend.

It has to be shown from the bible and bible alone that James White was correct, then I can agree with his positions.

I firmly uphold Sola Scriptura as the basis for all doctrinal beliefs.

He was not infallible, but do you know James Whites great, great Grand Father was born on the mayflower on the way to America? God had brought him here for the special purpose of James being here when the little book of Daniel would be swallowed up by the Advent believers.

A super majority of what our church believes was written by his hand and you think yourself more in tune with the messages from God?

Ellen White herself said she could not understand the things God had put into the mind of her husband, and it was only when he and the other elders were at a loss to understand a passage that God would THEN give her a message for the little flock.

I also believe in Sola Scriptura, but in the hands of men who have the Spirit of God such as James had. Or else you are of a private interpretation. He was the first elder of the beginning of our faith, The movement of which became the SDA church.

[12tribes]

The Beast from the Bottomless Pit is not the Papacy, but Atheistic Communism. But Atheistic Communism was created BY the Papacy. All the Secret Societies are interconnected with this.

You obviously do not know Adventist eschatology, lol.

You could say everything wicked is Satan if you want. You seem to forget that Satan is working through all these mediums. To flat out say "It's just Satan", is superficial, and simply makes the symbolism out to be foolish, because every wicked entity is Satan, but Satan working through those entities.

That is true that is who the beast is in Rev 17, a state power while the woman is a church, what we have then is the woman controlling the beast and the beast later turns on the woman

[jamesonofthunder]

I truly did not imagine that you all would get this message... I am content that many have had the seed planted and the birds did not steal it away.

May God forgive our ignorance and lead us to all truth... Amen.