Disfellowship of "Futurists"

[Gibs]

Disfellowship the Futurists,

Go ahead, it don't really matter much at this late date,

I'll just give you some,

The seals are not all opened yet,

The trumpets haave not happened yet,

The seven last plagues have not happened yet,

All of chapter 11 of Rev is to happen yet,

All of Rev 13 has not happened yet.

By these prophecies it can be known we are very, very close to the last 3'1/2 years of time and it will be over.

I'm in His Ekklesia and He only can disfellowship me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I am reminded of how God did not immediately move to quench the rebellion in heaven that Satan was stirring up. Sometimes you have to wait for things to come to fruition, to become more apparent to all concerned. It wasn't until Christ was crucified that the angels and other created beings inhabiting other planets understood the depth of that original rebellion. The whole point of the Great Controversy is to allow "evil" to be fully exposed so there remains no question for any created being in the Universe as to the character of God. His laws will be vindicated in due time.

Never the less, there are limits to the evil doer's power. There are limits to God's mercy even while the controversy rages on. Noah built a boat because limits had been met, the cup of iniquity was full. Generally speaking the higher one is in leadership or the more wide spread an apostasy is the more time, the more consideration must be given for it to come to fruition.

Regardless of the details of those 150 Adventist Pastors that followed Ford, they, like him, were "dismissed" from the Church in due time.

[cheddar]

Disfellowship the Futurists,

Go ahead, it don't really matter much at this late date,

I'll just give you some,

The seals are not all opened yet,

The trumpets haave not happened yet,

The seven last plagues have not happened yet,

All of chapter 11 of Rev is to happen yet,

All of Rev 13 has not happened yet.

By these prophecies it can be known we are very, very close to the last 3'1/2 years of time and it will be over.

I'm in His Ekklesia and He only can disfellowship me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You can add Rev. 12 to that list too!

The war in heaven has always traditionally been thought to have happened before the creation of the earth but this might be another one.

The word heaven could easily be translated as air or atmosphere which would be here on earth.

Satan and his angels are released from the bottomless pit during the 5th trumpet and Jesus’ angels are released during the 6th trumpet so that war could easily take place then.

We know that the two witnesses are caught up to heaven after they are killed so the man child who is caught up to God and the throne could represent one of them while the remnant of her seed could be seen as the 144K.

If the war in heaven took place at the fall of Lucifer why would he have 7 heads and 10 horns – doesn’t make much sense.

Futurism explains prophecy so much better!

[Dr. Rich]

Disfellowship the Futurists,

Go ahead, it don't really matter much at this late date,

I'll just give you some,

The seals are not all opened yet,

The trumpets haave not happened yet,

The seven last plagues have not happened yet,

All of chapter 11 of Rev is to happen yet,

All of Rev 13 has not happened yet.

By these prophecies it can be known we are very, very close to the last 3'1/2 years of time and it will be over.

I'm in His Ekklesia and He only can disfellowship me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

10-4 on that good buddy!

[ClubV12]

I always get a chuckle when I see Gib's and Dr.Rich doing the "high five", the only one missing from that bunch is "Curly". :)

[Aliensanctuary]

In days of old, Sabbath Keepers had to leave their Sunday-Keeping churches because of their worship day change, and, their continued insistence that Jesus was going to return in the 1800's. Ultimately, they left their home churches to establish yet another denomination.

How they must have suffered through the great Time of Trouble, watching everyone around them die like flies as all of the stars fell and the whole Earth shook, until the moment when Jesus appeared, or was supposed to appear. They never could get Jesus to come for them, though, no matter how hard they tried.

Today, the traditionalists and historicists tend to run the SDA denomination, basing their doctrines on EGW's personal beliefs. Those who believe in the future fulfillment of Last Days prophecies may have to do the same thing that our Founding Fathers and Mothers did: Create a new denomination that proposes a better model to explain Last Days prophecies. Otherwise, the traditionalists and historicists will make it clear to the futurists that their non-traditional and futuristic viewpoints are not welcome, mainly because, Our Founding Mother, and the Mother Church doctrines, do not err.

[Lysimachus]

If you think this forum is bad (with the lingering skeptics that wear you out), go to the topix Adventist Forum. It's insane over there. They have flooded the forum, and the few Adventists in there can't keep up.

It's a shame that when a new person wants to learn more about Adventism, they come in only to find out that the majority of the members there are adamant opponents to the Adventist faith.

[Lysimachus]

Aliensanctuary too?

How many are there?

[ClubV12]

Marcos,,, I'm afraid they are legion! Our work is cut out for us.

On a side note, IF and WHEN there is any condition whereby some aspect or time frame of the 2,300 year prophecy will apply in the future, God will reveal it in due time. Until then we must continue to "hold the line" against these various and assundry "1335 Futurists" AND those who claim a "home church" is the only way to go. A Home Church may in some specific and rare cases be ONE way to go, but as I see it, it is predominately offered as an alternative by those who are "calling out" Seventh-day Adventist from God's true Church. A movement largely comprised of fanatics and radicals, extreme caution is advised.

I will wait for the time of trouble to consider when and if a home church is the only option left. I will not bring upon myself that time of trouble before it is due. Though I be the only voice left in my local Church, though they disfellowship me for whatever reason, I will continue to support them as best I can. I will go to GIVE a blessing as much as receive one in Church.

...if I had a family, kids at home, I understand I might have to more carefully in considering my options WITHIN the scope and membership of the Church.

[Windsor]

I looked through the 28 fundamental beliefs and couldn't find where it mentions the 1335 days. Some people belief the 2300 days are inseparable from the 1335 and others see no connection whatsoever but yet still believe the 1335 days are in the future. Are these the people some are seeking to kick out of the church?

[ClubV12]

There are MANY variations on this theme Windsor. The particular group in Washington state focus on a different, but related theme, the 2,520 year prophecy. These various groups I personally refer to as "1335 Futurists". The 2520 is ALLEGED to come from Leviticus, personally, I don't buy that or see it in Leviticus.

Our own Dr.Rich promotes a variation on this theme, with specific dates, time tables, charts detailing end time events. Brother Gibs also embraces views that place future events in a time table based loosely, or specifically, on segments of the 2,300 year prophecy. The "1335" generally focus their attention on the 1260 or 1290 day time frame found within the time frame of the 1335 segment of the 2,300 year prophecy.

Any future application is considered as literal days, 1,260 days, not years. So you either have to eliminate the day for a year principle, a fundamental belief of Adventists, OR you have to speculate any future application is a "dual fulfillment". The first time in years, the second in literal days. As presented, I competely reject the concept of a dual fulfillment.

If you don't really know and understand well the details of the 2,300 year prophecy, you would be at substantial risk of being deceived by any of these groups.

508 AD to 1844 is 1,335 years.

508 AD to 1798 is 1,290 years, etc.

[tall73]

Perhaps a different thread just on the disfellowship topic might be helpful.

Club, if you feel strongly that those who preach against the fundamentals should be disfellowshipped, perhaps what you need to do is start a grassroots, bottom up movement where the membership calls for this.

Forums and other internet media such as Facebook could be used to mobilize, members could request that their local church start looking into it, etc.

Otherwise, it seems you are going to continue to have a status quo that allows folks to teach against the church.

I know of pastors and members who stayed in the church while not agreeing with it. I didn't feel that was right personally. But as it is the leadership of the church seems to think that they should not rock the boat and should just let things go as they are.

It is nice for a big tent mentallity when fund-raising for academies for example, but the end result is that Adventists are becoming less Adventist overall.

Now on the other hand, maybe that is fine if that is the direction folks want to go.

[ClubV12]

No need to start any "movement" or anything "grass roots", the Church Manual covers these bases already. This is not the Conference or the G.C. or any "grass roots" movement calling for members to remove themselves or face disfellowship. This is one Church responding to the heresy within their midst and taking action according to the rules/laws of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I will not second guess their findings, I support the Church as a whole and this Church as a group of individuals taking action.

If those Pastors and members of which you speak, tall73, begin to openly and actively preach heresy at their local Church, that local Church may need to take disciplinary action against them. Fairly simple concept....

I would not suggest anyone for discipline if they didn't accept Ellen White. But I sure would IF they start preaching/teaching she is a false prophet on or around Church property!

Again, it's NOT a matter of "what I feel" it's a matter of Church Law.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12, Oh, I fully agree that the 2300 years ended in or around 1844 but I do not see that date as when the alleged IJ started. I see it as re-establishing the Kingdom of Heaven, the Dan. 2's prophecy about the stone cut out without hands. Therefore, the KOH today are the sleeping ten virgins (spiritually) which match to a tee, the SDA church (of course more are included here).

But I am not stupid either, because it's clear to me the 6th seal has not been broken or any of the trumpets have been blown because I don't see anywhere that a third of the earth, trees and greass were burned up, nor a third of the creatures of the sea died and a third of the ships destroyed, and ----- oh well, you get the picture, just read about it in Rev. 8!

But I am willing to say that those dates and charts are only from the template found in Revelation. If the time of trouble does not start on the spring equinox of 2016, then the next time frame that fits the template will be over 20 years later.

And I might also add this for ClubV12 and Marcos, that those not willing to budge from their present understanding sounds much like those found in Laodicea (Rev. 3:14-18)

[Aliensanctuary]

We should really try to keep open minds about prophetic interpretations. The prophecies are only clues that can be easily be interpreted differently by those with different viewpoints. If we lock ourselves into a rigid, narrow belief system, we may find ourselves unable to climb out of the hole we have dug for ourselves.

The scriptures contain a number of references to events that will occur on Earth during the 1K years, such as lions befriending lambs, men considered young at 100 years, or swords beaten into plowshares, yet, the official SDA dogma states that only Satan and his evil angels will populate a ruined Earth.

So, if EGW said it, it has to be true. No discussion. If one doesn't believe her opinions, they are unworthy of SDA membership, and should go to church elsewhere. No discussion.

People who can read and think for themselves should be welcome in our churches, lest we become fossils, guarding our little nugget of truth, wearing our blinders from days of old, and plugging our ears while others pull our puppet strings.

[ClubV12]

"People who can read and think for themselves should be welcome in our churches,,,"

"Our churches" Aliensanctuary? Do you mean to suggest that you are a baptized member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

How is that possible with your views that are entirely inconsistent with Adventist theology? Perhaps you are suggesting that you profess to be an Adventist but are not actually a member of the Church? Thats OK if you are, lots of people make that profession. Like when your in the military and they ask what is your preferred religion. It doesn't really mean much one way or the other, they just want to know what "Priest" they need to contact when they collect your body parts on the field of battle....

...just curious, no harm intended. It's just that we have a lot of people say they are Adventists and it's hard to keep track of who is and who isn't.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12, it is clear from you words that you must be a new member of the SDA church because you really don't know 'it' all. Read what Jesus said in Matt. 13 about not weeding the garden. It's not your job nor mine--it is God's job.

It appears that Aliensanctuary used the words in Isaiah 65:17-25 as a prophecy about the thousand years. This is what Jesus told Israel what HE would do for them IF they chose the life road. It has NOTHING to do with the thousand year period at the end of this world--look at verses 20 and 22. There will be NO death during the 1000 year period!

[ClubV12]

"Satan and his evil angels will populate a ruined Earth."

It appears that Aliensanctuary is making referrence here to the 1,000 year time frame following the Second coming. You can find out more about this in the book "Great Controversy", Dr.Rich.

[Aliensanctuary]

Well, Jesus attended Temple and synagogue services, much to the displeasure of some because he was so critical of their practices. If I were single, I would unlikely attend any church, but being married, I take my wife to the nearby SDA church occasionally because I know that she likes to dress up and have me sitting next to her during the program.

There are no more butt-kicking ultraconservatives remaining at this particular SDA church, and anyway, since I dislike SS and the canned lessons, I never attend those or share my opinions while there.

I was baptized into the SDA denomination the same day I was married. That was a few years ago, and more recently, I have spent some time reading the OT, which has caused me to revise my belief that the SDA denomination has it all right.

I wouldn't say that I've got it all right, either, but I keep looking. Funny thing about interpreting scripture...the other guy is always wrong if he doesn't believe the same things that we do.

(I should have said "wolf" instead of "lion" in my previous post, but was distracted with the mental image of a lion next to a lamb in a card I really liked.)

[miz3]

Fantasy vs Fantasy.

SDA Church .org view of prophesy is totally based on what Ellen White says. Case closed.

The Truth is everyone is guessing, no one knows for sure.

[ClubV12]

Thanks for that clairification Alien, I and I'm sure others, appreciate it.

[Dr. Shane]

Recant, withdraw from Church membership or be disfellowshipped. Of course the usuall rhetoric then follows: The Church is acting like the "Pope", freedom of speech is being curtailed, etc...

It's about time, I applaud the Newport, Washington Adventist Church finding the courage to take a stand.

I absolutely agree. If people do not believe as Adventists we would they desire to have a membership with one of our churches. We are not saying they should be burned at the stake or tarred and feathered. They are free to go out and start their own churches. We are all about religious freedom. However if someone wants to hold a membership with one of our churches, they should, at the very least, not openly teach that the church is in error.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

On prophecy I find it was mostly from U. Smith and once in a letter EGW wrote to U S she had told him he got most of his ideas of prophecy from Gibbon the "skeptic". Now he was known as Gibbon the "historian". I would paste that letter here but it is not on the new discs of her writings but was on the first two in a section of "letters" but now a lot of her letters to different ones are not put on it.

Here is another interresting note. She states "it has been shown"

Revelation 13:11-16. It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. {GC 578.3}

Shown by whom? Don't think it was her idea, read.

(Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1} In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

It is plain to me she did not see the second beast as the USA as U. Smith had believed. Smith was the editor of the Review and GC president and he got most his way and he did not like Jones.

There was always lots of contention and much never got ironed out as it should have been. Ideas among men abound and are fought for, we see it all the time. Arf arf, bark bark.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Without Ellen White's blessing and agreement the SDA Church .org would not cling so tightly to these failed prophetic theories regardless who started it.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

Don't you think it would have been a lot better for her had she been a man? She was the weakest of the weak so to speak. A woman in those days was unheard of to lead a church. She didn't have the power in it that U. Smith had it looks to me. If it hadn't been for many seeing she was sent of God she would have been put down and out.

I am certain that she had an extremely "tough and weedy row to hoe".

I understand two men were called before her and they refused and God then picked the "weakest of the weak" and sent her.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.