Disfellowship of "Futurists"

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

A lot of people miss the starting point for the 2300 of Dan 8 because it is not realized that chapters were put in by men. The vision is carried on in chapter 9. The Sanctuary was to be cleansed a the end of 2300, check the text again of Dan 8:13,14.

Dan 7

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1. In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions that passed through his head as he lay in bed.

Dan 8

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1. In the third year of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after the one that had originally appeared to me.

Dan 9

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1. It was the first year of Darius son of Artaxerxes, a Mede by race who assumed the throne of Chaldaea.

Dan 10, 11, 12

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1. 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia...

We can see that Dani-el's visions were separated by several years. Chapters 10-12 originate from the ET communication in the third year of Cyrus.

Chapter 9 time periods are different from the other visions: "sevened" rather than "evenings and mornings" or "days". Although beginning with the length of time Jerusalem would remain in ruins in Dani-el's time, a 70-year period, it concludes with a 70-"sevened" prophecy.

Interestingly, the Abomination of Horror/Desolation is mentioned in Dan 8, 9, 11, and 12, and, in Matt 24, all in connection with the Last Days or Time of the End.

It would be a great abomination if a guillotine were set up in the courtyard of the Last Days Temple, and the decapitated bodies of the armies of heaven were cremated on the Altar of Sacrifice, then scattered and trampled upon by the victorious armies of the Little Big Horn. Yes, that would be a terrible mockery, an abomination of horror, a time to head for the hills as Jesus forewarned...

Jesus mentioned this event, the Abomination of Desolation, as something that would occur during the Great Tribulation. Immediately following this short time period, Earth and sky are shaken, sun and moon are darkened by the dust clouds resulting from possibly one or more asteroid strikes, and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the darkened sky.

Quote:

In a nutshell, the language of Daniel 8:13 and 14 is the language of Hebrews concerning the heavenly sanctuary--which mirrors the earthly spiritual sanctuary, which is realized in God's people. So while the events are transpiring ON the earth, it has an intrinsical correlation to heaven's sanctuary for which the earthly spiritual sanctuary (God's people) have an intimate coalescing relationship with. So yes, the sanctuary IS on the earth--the spiritual sanctuary that is...for which the HEAVENLY represents!

By spiritualizing the events of the Last Days, we eviscerate the OT prophecies. We can then easily turn them into SDA-centric events.

[Dr. Rich]

Problem is, no one is following the rules to correctly understand end time prophecy. Here they are:

1.All prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time. Elements within a prophecy are consecutive and occur in chronological order.

2.In order for a prophetic fulfillment to occur, ALL elements of the prophecy must occur as stated within the prophecy. (This precludes partial or multiple fulfillments, or types of fulfillments.)

3.The interpretation for a symbol will be given within the prophecy. If no interpretation is given, then the symbol is to be taken literally.

4.Timing within the restoration calendar (Jubilee) is given in days/years. One day equals one year. Timing after the expiration of the "restoration calendar" is literal.

5.Time Elements - A year is one rotation of the earth around the sun, calculated as beginning at the Spring Equinox. The half year occurs on the Fall Equinox. Months are calculated from the lunar cycle and begin on the New Moon and end the day before the next new moon. Weeks begin on the first day of the week (Sunday) and end on the seventh day of the week (Sabbath). A Day is the rotation of the earth around its axis in 24 hours.

6.Time Specific Prophecy - Certain prophecies or elements of prophecy have a specific time for their understanding. These prophecies can be read anytime, but the understanding of the interpretation of these prophecies is sealed up until a specific time has been reached. Before these prophecies are unsealed (understood at the specific time) it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be understood and/or accurately interpreted.

7.Only the Wise will understand in the last generation - both the time when the prophecy is unsealed and the accurate interpretation of the prophecy when it is time to come. (Dan. 12:10) None of the wicked will ever understand.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich,

I must stand with you on the herneneitics. The one ignored the most is the one on the starting time of the apocolyptic prophecies. All of them have and some somewhat hidden as to the time to start the prophecy.

So what happens, an "application" is made that the adherents will stand by and fight like tigers to defend it, even when scripture is given to plainly establish the fact it hasn't happened yet.

I say let's all get "real", that is let us be "realists".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye--of God ye are, little children, and ye have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

As we have seen, many Adventists and other well meaning people have written things that seem to them, at the time, that the information 'fits' and now they try to fit this same size shoe of information on their feet of learning. They have refused to adjust for the size of the feet by following rules. When false prophets do this, they cause people to become deceived because most don't have any idea what the words are in the bible.

Take the idea that Noah preached 120 years for instance, that can't be found anywhere. Where did the 120 years come from? Also the IJ? Hmmm?

[Lysimachus]

Aliensanctuary,

• "Futurism is literalism, and literalism in the interpretation of symbols is a denial of their symbolic character. It is an abuse and degradation of the prophetic word, and a destruction of its influence. It substitutes the imaginary for the real, the grotesque and monstrous for the sober and reasonable. It quenches the precious light which has guided the saints for ages, and kindles a wild, delusive marshfire in its place. It obscures the wisdom of Divine prophecy; it denies the true character of the days in which we live; and while it asserts the nearness of the advent of Christ in the power and glory of His kingdom, it at the same time destroys the only substantial foundation for the assertion, which is prophetic chronology, and the stage now reached in the fulfillment of the predictions of the apostasy."H. Grattan Guinness, Romanism and the Reformation From the Standpoint of Prophecy, pp. 298, 299. (1887)

Aliensanctuary, your doctrines come straight from the very pits of hell. The Bottomless Pit. For you to literalize away the scriptures is, just like H. Grattan Guinness said, it "substitutes the imaginary for the real, the grotesque and monstrous for the sober and reasonable". What you teach, Aliensanctuary, is Walt Disney Fiction, and it is no more glamorous or true than the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, or the Flintstones.

The abominable work has been done by the Papacy to take people's minds away from themselves as being the Little Horn power and Antichrist/Beast power of Bible prophecy.

Christian Edwardson succinctly puts it:

• To undermine the work of the Reformers, these Jesuits, Alcasar and Ribera, gathered a mass of material from the writings of the Church Fathers concerning Antichrist. This gave their works the appearance of scientific research, which appealed to many Protestant leaders. (An example of this can be seen in Encyclopedia Biblica, art. "Antichrist.") But statements from the Church Fathers which speak of the coming of Antichrist as an event then in the future, could be no proof for Ribera's "futurist" theory, for the reign of the papal Antichrist was then still in the future. The 1260 years of papal persecution, called the Dark Ages, had not yet begun when these Fathers wrote. The theories of Ribera and Alcasar were diametrically opposed to each other, and yet both were taught as Catholic truths, taken from the Church Fathers. From this we see how untrustworthy are these sources. Dr. Adam Clarke is evidently right when he says of the Fathers:

  "We may safely state, that there is not a truth in the most orthodox creed, that cannot be proven by their authority; nor a heresy that has disgraced the Romish Church that may not challenge them as its abetters. In points of doctrine, their authority is, with me, nothing. The Word of God alone contains my creed." - Commentary on Proverbs 8. {1943 Christian Edwardson, Facts of Faith, The Antichrist – Jesuits Undermine the Truth, p. 202)

H. Gratten Guiness wrote these memorable words of burning truth:

• "From the first, and throughout, that movement [the Reformation] was energized and guided by the prophetic word. Luther never felt strong and free to war against Papal apostasy till he recognized the pope as antichrist. It was then that he burned the Papal bull. Knox’s first sermon, the sermon that launched him on his mission as a reformer, was on the prophecies concerning the papacy. The reformers embodied their interpretations of prophecy in their confessions of faith, and Calvin in his “Institutes.” All of the Reformers were unanimous in the matter, even the mild and cautious Melanchthon was assured of the anti-papal meaning of these prophecies as was Luther himself. And their interpretation of these prophecies determined their reforming action. It led them to protest against Rome with extraordinary strength and undaunted courage. It nerved them to resist the claims of the apostate church to the utmost. It made them martyrs; it sustained them at the stake. And the views of the Reformers were shared by thousands, by hundreds, of thousands. They were adopted by princes and peoples. Under their influence nations abjured their allegiance to the false priest of Rome. In the reaction that followed all the powers of hell seemed to be let loose upon the adherents of the Reformation. War followed war; tortures, burnings, and massacres were multiplied. Yet the Reformation stood undefeated and unconquerable. God’s word upheld it, and the energies of His almighty Spirit. It was the work of Christ as truly as the founding of the church eighteen centuries ago; and the revelation of the future which he gave from heaven-that prophetic book with which the Scripture closes-was one of the mightiest instruments employed in its accomplishment." (Henry Grattan Guinness, Romanism and the Reformation (Hodder and Stoughton, 1887): 250-251

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

A lot of people miss the starting point for the 2300 of Dan 8 because it is not realized that chapters were put in by men. The vision is carried on in chapter 9. The Sanctuary was to be cleansed a the end of 2300, check the text again of Dan 8:13,14.

Dan 7

Quote:

1. In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions that passed through his head as he lay in bed.

Dan 8

Quote:

1. In the third year of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after the one that had originally appeared to me.

Dan 9

Quote:

1. It was the first year of Darius son of Artaxerxes, a Mede by race who assumed the throne of Chaldaea.

Dan 10, 11, 12

Quote:

1. 1. In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia...

We can see that Dani-el's visions were separated by several years. Chapters 10-12 originate from the ET communication in the third year of Cyrus.

Chapter 9 time periods are different from the other visions: "sevened" rather than "evenings and mornings" or "days". Although beginning with the length of time Jerusalem would remain in ruins in Dani-el's time, a 70-year period, it concludes with a 70-"sevened" prophecy.

Interestingly, the Abomination of Horror/Desolation is mentioned in Dan 8, 9, 11, and 12, and, in Matt 24, all in connection with the Last Days or Time of the End.

It would be a great abomination if a guillotine were set up in the courtyard of the Last Days Temple, and the decapitated bodies of the armies of heaven were cremated on the Altar of Sacrifice, then scattered and trampled upon by the victorious armies of the Little Big Horn. Yes, that would be a terrible mockery, an abomination of horror, a time to head for the hills as Jesus forewarned...

Jesus mentioned this event, the Abomination of Desolation, as something that would occur during the Great Tribulation. Immediately following this short time period, Earth and sky are shaken, sun and moon are darkened by the dust clouds resulting from possibly one or more asteroid strikes, and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the darkened sky.

Quote:

In a nutshell, the language of Daniel 8:13 and 14 is the language of Hebrews concerning the heavenly sanctuary--which mirrors the earthly spiritual sanctuary, which is realized in God's people. So while the events are transpiring ON the earth, it has an intrinsical correlation to heaven's sanctuary for which the earthly spiritual sanctuary (God's people) have an intimate coalescing relationship with. So yes, the sanctuary IS on the earth--the spiritual sanctuary that is...for which the HEAVENLY represents!

By spiritualizing the events of the Last Days, we eviscerate the OT prophecies. We can then easily turn them into SDA-centric events.

In case you haven't noticed, I, along with many others here, have already soundly refuted these literalistic, grotesque, and monstrous interpretations of yours.

You cannot get around the fact that just because the prophecy given in Daniel 9 is several years after the vision in Daniel 8, that this necessitates it to be a separate vision. Keep in mind that in Daniel 2, 7, and 8, there was a vision, then an audition, or explanation of the vision. But in Daniel 9, there was no vision. Only an explanation. The angel Gabriel appears in Daniel 8, and 9, but is not mentioned anywhere else, and the discussion in Daniel 9 is in context of the "vision at the beginning", which he had "no understanding".

Whenever you guys are backed in a corner, you accuse us of "spiritualizing" away the events of the Last Days.

I say baloney.

We do not spiritualize away symbols. There is a literal tribulation in the last days. There is a literal antichrist. There is a literal Second Coming, and there is a literal reign. It is obvious that although symbols cannot be taken literally, what the symbols stand for is always literally true.

We do not spiritualize away the prophecies. We apply symbols WHERE THEY BELONG! What the symbols stand for are actually and literally true!

Rome collapsed in 476 A.D. Are you going to take the Little Horn that grew out of the Roman Beast power, that 4th empire in Daniel 7, and saw it off and project it some 1500+ years into the future by inserting some detestable gap, created by the Jesuits? Are you?

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR NOTE:

This topic is locked in hopes that some folk will take Stan's admonition seriously. It is time for passions to cool and inflammatory hyperbole to cease.