Disfellowship of "Futurists"

[Dr. Rich]

What nonsense! Paul said he delivered them to Satan to save their souls. That my friend is utterlyl nonsense! Jesus would have never done such a thing!

"1Tim. 1:20 "Among these are Humenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they be taught not to blaspheme." Huh? First of all NO ONE can turn anyone over to Satan and second, Satan will NEVER teach anyone not to commit blaspheme! What Paul said was pure blaspheme itslef!

Want more blaspheme? Go to Colossians 1:24. "Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afflictions." WHAT? So here Paul has the nerve to say that Christ did NOT suffer enough so that he (big man that he is) must make up the difference! Whoa, that my friends is pure blasphemy.

[ClubV12]

Wow,,, truly amazing, Dr.Rich calling the scriptures, blasphemy.

[tall73]

Tall73, so you do admit that your god is Aunt Ellen? It appears that you would rather follow her words than follow the words of Jesus in regards to this issue. Wow, right now it appears that the foolish out number the wise virging!

Dr. Rich, have you looked at my signature yet?

[tall73]

Wow,,, truly amazing, Dr.Rich calling the scriptures, blasphemy.

Apparently he is anti-Paul?

[Dr. Rich]

Never mind. Sorry about that.

[Gibs]

The thing is ClubV12, disfellowshipping one from the denomination or one of it's individual churches don't condemn them only in your eyes. I am sure glad Jesus Christ will be our judge and yours too.

You and some others would have it no one has a right to disagree in the SDA church. Well I'm telling you now we do and there is very serious error come in that needs rooted out but instead you fight the ones who would have it cleaned up.

I've went over the many things to you and my main one is the "new age theology" of salvation. This is the one that caused many ministers to depart and start an independant ministry and rigtly so. Why? Because as you can't change the church of Rome of it's errors try it with the SDA church, it didn't happen and I have found it will never.

I have a very good idea of what EGW would say today to the church if they would even let her speak now from her tone and testimony after 1901 till she died. She wouldn't uphold the church today in it's present state you and all should see that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Wow,,, truly amazing, Dr.Rich calling the scriptures, blasphemy.

True "scripture" are exactly what Jesus called them, the "law and the prophets". NEVER can anyone prove that the words of Paul can be called true scripture! NO one came forward as a witness to the alleged conversion of Saul! It's his word verses mine. Didn't God say it takes TWO witnesses to confirm something? So why didn't Saul find another witness to this alleged conversion?

Want more? How many of the 12 apostles who Jesus chose were given the Holy Spirit as found in John 20:22? Eleven because Judas had killed himself. Now tell me how many apostles were alleged to have received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2? Read verse 14. There were 12. Why because Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. Now read Rev. 21:14. Where do you see that Paul was one of the 12 apostles? He wasn't and never was. He called himself an apostle, one of those they tested as found in Rev. 2:2 and found to be a false apostle. Jesus NEVER verified or confirmed this (Paul a true apostle) even though Jesus had a chance to do this with John when He gave John the information for the book of Revelation. Why not?

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"...disfellowshipping one from the denomination or one of it's individual churches don't condemn them only in your eyes."

It is not me, or the Pastor, or the Conference who takes this action, it is by a VOTE of those who are members of the Church taking action, the BODY of believers. They condem the actions, having been given due consideration and readily apparent to the majority of the members. If a member chooses to leave, of their own accord, that is between them and God, the Church is not involved.

What you see as condemnation in that as it regards your salvation is between you and God.

Now Gibs, you consistently make referrence to the "errors in the Adventist Church" and that your mission is to "root them out", to correct them. Yet, you fail to present WHAT THESE ERRORS ARE that you disagree with to the point of removing yourself from the Church?

So what, exactly IS your beef with the Adventist doctrines and official policies of the Adventist Church Gibs? Bring it out into the light, lets consider the evidence.

[skyblue888]

I have a very good idea of what EGW would say today to the church if they would even let her speak now from her tone and testimony after 1901 till she died. She wouldn't uphold the church today in it's present state you and all should see that.

Gibs

___________

Gibs, you are right in saying Mrs. White wouldn't but she would also repeat the messsage, "One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up ever other, Christ and His righteousness."

Christ and His righteousness is the message to be proclaimed today in the church for the last time. We are invited, as in 1888, to come to Jesus, daily, just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, and to hang our helpless souls upon His all-sufficient merits that He may work in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. Thus we may become vessels fit for the Master's use. This is the message she said was and is to be proclaimed to the church first and then to the world with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in large measure.

Only by the rejection of this final call--second call of the parable of the wedding garment--will the church seal her rejection of God's mercy. God will finish the work with those who receive, believe, and act upon this most precious message.

So to call people out of the church now is not present truth. There is still a great work to be done for God's professed people.

In the days of Christ the disciples of Christ did not call people out of the Jewish church until she had sealed her rejection of God's mercy by rejecting the second call of the parable. This second and final call was proclaimed beginning at Pentecost and it ended at the stoning of Stephen and was followed by the third call of the parable to the Gentiles.

sky

[ClubV12]

"new age theology" of salvation is not a doctrine of the Adventist Church Gibs.

What other serious error in doctrine and policies have caused you to leave the Church?

Using your logic everytime a Preacher gave a sermon and someone "thought" he said this or that and it made them upset, they should remove their membership from the Church! Now how foolish is that, before long the Church would be empty!

Sky, I think it would be fair to the readers of this forum to know where you stand on membership in the Adventist Church. I'd like to hear your views on why one should or should not become or remain a member of that official organized body of believers.

Sister Whites primary job, as a messenger, was to reprove and point out sin in the Church. She was doing that from day one, she would continue that work today. Don't mistake that for a call to leave the Church by any means!

[Dr. Rich]

A 'rich man' who gives to the church over a hundred thousand every year, do you think the church board would vote to remove his membership even IF he did not agree with all of the 28 doctrines, EGW or Paul and tells others to follow only the words of Jesus? But a 'poor man' who can't afford to give much to the church and also does not agree with the 28 docrines, EGW or Paul and tells others to follow only the words of Jesus, do you think the board would have a hard time removing him? Think about it! IF a membership can be purchased for a price, what ever the price, what good is the membership?

I have witnessed this same thing in my sda church. A man who's membership is still a sda, but now a rich man who owns golf clubs, amusement parks and other businesses now openly ignors the sabbath day, but still 'donates' thousand each year to the church and is 'nice' to everyone, has come up to the church board to remove him but NONE of them would vote him out because they fear loosing the large donation each year. Yet someone who openly keeps the sabbath and the other commandments, but questions the truth in the doctrines, EGW and Paul by presenting evidence from the bible confirming the church's error gets hit with warnings not to even speak to anyone concerning the bible while on church property for fear of having his membership removed. The church says it wants the people to have their own ministries to 'help' people in need of health, food and clothing, but if the ministry helps people in need of some spiritual food that is truthful by folowing the words of Jesus, then they shun this ministry as if it is a hot potatoe!

So, the prophecy about the SDA church now being the 'synagogue of Satan' just may fit. Get the picture?

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Again and again, it's

"the new age theology"

"emergent church"

"spiritusl exercises"

"lectio divina"

"NLP and Super NLP"

"lab 1-2-3"

"trinity doctrine"

"corporated name"

"501c3 compliancy" as this takes away the freedon to speak against abortion, homosexuality and more.

They did rescind on "theistic evolution" they get a "A" there!

That's all I just took off the top of my "hat".

Some will argue for for some or all of the above and I've heard them all, so please spare me the darts.

And no I don't advocate to leave the SDA church unless you are sure you've found a better one. Just because I had my name taken off the books doesn't mean I don't think the SDA church isn't the best of the crop, it still is from among those of the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

"The new age theology", "emergent church", "spiritusl exercises", "lectio divina", "NLP and Super NLP", "lab 1-2-3", "corporated name", "501c3 compliancy".

So these are the accusations levied against the Church by this accuser of the Brethren? OK, lets take a look.

NONE of the above are doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They are suggestions, implications and pet peeves of an accuser of the Brethren. These are the typical accusations made by those on the fringe, ex-Adventists, fanatics and radicals. These accusations are presented in a way that distorts the reality of what the Church believes in, supports and promotes. They are designed to promote a scattering and denigration of that body of believers.

Now there is ONE actual doctrine you mentioned, the Trinity Doctrine. I agree with that doctrine, as does the Adventist Church. If you don't, I'm OK with that. If you don't believe in Ellen White, I'm OK with that too!

If you OPENLY, CONSISTENTLY preach and teach against the Church and do it on Church property that is another thing. That is obviously what you are doing on this, a public forum. By doing so you are in violation of the rules of conduct in the Church Manual and are then subject to Church discipline. And I'm OK with that! I will certainly protest your holding any office in the Church in any capacity. I would certainly place you under censure so your membership could not be transferred. If this "rebellion" continues and there is no repentance, the Church may be forced to take more extreme measures, disfellowship. I'm glad you left voluntairly left Gibs, it spared the Church a lot of headaches in dealing with your many errors.

By removing your membership, Gibs, your actions speak louder than your words.

You cannot "buy" membership in the Church. Regardless of how much you donate, if you violate the rules of conduct in the Church Manual, you are subject to membership removal.

[Gibs]

The church became trinitarian after EGW and that doctrine did not come in very strong before 1950. For my see of it EGW was not a trinitarian. God represents himself to us by Spirit, which He is and by Jesus Christ whom was the Body prepared that the Father dwelt in an by His own name. I've laid that out before and it looks like I need to do it again.

One little statement by EGW,

"The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

There are a lot of SDA's that won't take up the trinity doctrine and different trinity believers I find see it different.

I know you will not read anything that opposes your view or I would post a thesis of the trinity vs one God.

The rest of those items I posted Club are serious errors and need rescinding.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

What you fail to grasp on this issue Gibs, is that it is a NON ISSUE.

It didn't bother Ellen White one way or the other, it doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, thats your problem, OWN IT, it aint my problem.

I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it ONE more time, for it is useless to shout in the ears of a deaf man.

When a young man was about to enter the ministry he asked Ellen White about the Holy Spirit. The reason was, because he was NOT in harmony with his brethren on the subject. She ignored the question, literally didn't have ANYTHING to say on the subject for the young man. Her counsel was for him to return home and come into harmony with his brethren on the matter. Her counsel is much the same on the issue of the daily, it's just not that important. The same counsel is given for the 144K, just let it go IF and WHEN it starts to become a problem among the brethren.

Now if any of those subject are a problem for YOU,,, I don't care. I won't be dragged into an argument over them. If the position of the Church concludes there is a Trinity, I'm OK with that. For me, it is NOT a salvational issue. If it is for you, OWN IT, do what you gotta do. Two wrongs don't make a right. Beating people over the head about it, leaving the Church over it, getting all upset with it, is just plain stupid in my opinion.

I KNOW there is error in the Church, some of it is substantial. But I'm not about to pick up my toys and leave the sand box because some kid kicked sand in my face! :)

[Dr. Rich]

Most people who protest on the streets today are NOT against our government, but against those IN the government who have clearly abused their oath to uphold the constitution. Same goes for most of those who voice their concern in the Adventist church.

That's where I fit in. I LOVE my Adventist church and my fellow brothers and sisters! They seem to feel the same way about me. Yes, I voice my concern about those leaders and teachers and preachers IN the Advenstist church who seem to forget their OATH is not to the church or any of it's memebers, (dead or alive); but to God as we are to be the servants for Jesus (A servant of God and a Friend to Man--the Pathfinder oath).

Does anyone here agree with this?

[Lysimachus]

Apparently he is anti-Paul?

You would be correct tall73. More than just anti-Paul, he's opposed to Luke, James [i think], and 2nd Peter. None of this is inspiration to him. It's all "extra-Biblical". He also lumps Ellen White with them, lol.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

It don't matter much to me that you are a go alonger with known error to you but you do your best to try and discredit any who do not see as you do.

Well your return remarks are only words to me of a man who will not look into the testimony of another. So no you will not push me off from making comments of my view. Sure you can disagree but your response is about always the same to throw out what you find the pioneers said if it suits you and if it don't you look over them. Some of EGW's statements I've posted you don't care for.

You say it's a non issue, well what is the issue. The issue is these forums are to discuss subjects among SDA's and non SdA's and discenting SDA's.

Some pounded BibleOnly so merciously he isn't around commenting no more. Hey he was good to sharpen you up and now he is gone. I say don't pound anyone to quit, have patience and keep reasoning with them as you are moved too. Not from anger, if we have that it is better to cool it and then come back to him in a civil manner, God you know is his judge.

Sure there is some that cannot and will not be moved but are they to be obedient to us at our command? No of course not.

I hold EGW in high regard and the teachings of the SDA church up to a certain point and the point where it got to when I begin to see trouble is after 1901 and 1903 was a turn away from what EGW saw it should go and her testimony got pretty strong on different points and all should take note and look these up in her writings.

We each have a voice on these matters and each should do his part in using his voice.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You kinda make me smile on this comment you made, "It didn't bother Ellen White one way or the other, it doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, thats your problem, OWN IT, it aint my problem."

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Of course it didn't boter EGW as these things didn't come in until close to a 100 yrs. after her death, but I do think she saw the start of it.

The problem is Club it is really your problem and every member of the church today.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

No it's not my problem Gib's. Maybe with a few years of therapy you might figure that out.

I don't have a problem with all the little nit picking ideas you pick up and run with. Making mountains out of mole hills. Post your ideas, theories, theology all you want. When you discredit the Church and make FALSE allegations, I'll be here to correct them.

Trinity? No problem here, nor is their a problem with the Church, it's settled. Ellen White didn't have a problem with it either.

144K? Yeah, what ever you think, it's not MY problem if you engage in wild speculation.

When you post out of context Ellen White quotes, I'll be here to provide that missing context.

A 100 years later? Thats FALSE. Ellen White dealt with these same doctrinal issues in her day. She dealt with a lot of fanatics in her time.

"WE" Gibs? Who is this "WE" you speak of? Your not a member of the Church, YOU have an opinion, "WE" don't agree with it.

....carry on....

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You tickle me, tell me what is out of context with this quote from EGW from what we were discussing,

"The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So since the Father was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself then the above verse reveals that is what God is SPIRIT.

Now then since the Son and Father are one and they are Spirit, then how many Gods is there? Answer, ONE!

Then we have the "Shema" a proclamation,

De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

God in verse above is elohiym and is the LORD king of Israel and LORD of Hosts, the Redeemer. They are declared to be ONE Yahweh. LORD in caps=Yahweh in all cases.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Yeah, you tickle me even thinking I will be drawn into a discussion on the points of the Trinity. On some issues, silence is golden. Write a letter to Ted about your concerns, high five your good buddy Dr.Rich, whatever. It's NOT an issue for me, not a problem.

I see nothing wrong with the SOP quotes you posted above. They don't directly address the issues you have one way or the other. Read into them, interpret them how ever you like. I find great beauty in them.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12, are you saying your not my buddy too? If people chose their buddies and friends because they believed the same, shoot, I would NEVER have any friends. Come Club, please don't give up, on this issue I happen to believe like you that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all different, yet in the same family of God, making them one. In fact, I fully agree with EGW and James White and Uraia Smith on this issue.

[ClubV12]

I can barely wrap my head around the thought that we agree on anything Dr.Rich.

But I do concur, I agree with James, Auntie Ellen (said with great affection) and my good buddy Uriah. :)

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

Apparently he is anti-Paul?

You would be correct tall73. More than just anti-Paul, he's opposed to Luke, James [i think], and 2nd Peter. None of this is inspiration to him. It's all "extra-Biblical". He also lumps Ellen White with them, lol.

Yes well most who reject Paul have to include those who endorsed him, so that is consistent.