Disfellowship of "Futurists"

[tall73]

2Ki 4:22 Then she called to her husband and said, "Send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may quickly go to the man of God and come back again."

2Ki 4:23 And he said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath." She said, "All is well."

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.

Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

Both of these texts seem to associate sabbath keeping and worship.

[Aliensanctuary]

Is. 13:13

Quote:

This is why I am going to shake the heavens,

why the earth will reel on its foundations,

under the wrath of Yahweh Sabaoth,

the day when his anger ignites.

Is 24:20

Quote:

The earth will reel to and fro like a drunkard,

it will be shaken like a shanty;

so heavy will be its sin on it,

it will fall, never to rise again.

Haggai 2:6, 21

Quote:

For Yahweh Sabaoth says this: A little while now, and I shall shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land.

`Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah. Say this, `I am going to shake the heavens and the earth.

Heb 12:26

Quote:

I am going to shake the earth once more and not only the earth but heaven as well.

Rev 6:14

Quote:

the sky disappeared like a scroll rolling up and all the mountains and islands were shaken from their places.

Just curious. Did the concept of the SDA church being shaken in the end times derive from any of the above verses?

[Dr. Rich]

John317 and '73', I couldn't agree with you more! Isn't writing on this blog also 'worship' in that sense John?

Fact is, doing the Lords work every day is worship too, right? When I was a youth I couldn't wait till sundown on Sabbaths, but now, well the Sabbath can't come soon enough for me. I have found that it has truely become a delight for me. But John, what I was referring to was 'going to church' as IF that was what God considered 'worship'. Now lets not get into what one should or should not do as that would be highjacking this thread.

[Dr. Rich]

I don't think so, as the book called "MATTHEW TWENTYFOUR" by James White clearly referred to the shaking as the time when the ten virgins were woken up from their sleep by a shout at midnight, saying "WAKE UP! THE BRIDEGROOM IS HERE, COME OUT TO MEET HIM".

[Aliensanctuary]

Dan 8:

Quote:

11. He even challenged the Commander of heaven's armies by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying [casting down] his Temple.

12. But the army of heaven was restrained from destroying him for this sin. As a result, sacrilege was committed against the Temple ceremonies, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did.

13. Then I heard two of the holy ones talking to each other. One of them said, "How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven's armies be trampled on?"

14. The other replied, "It will take twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be restored."

Dan 8:

Quote:

17. ... "Son of man," he said, "you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end."

19. Then he said, "I am here to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath . What you have seen pertains to the very end of time.

Dan 8 notes the cancellation of the daily [sacrifices] and the destruction of a Temple by the "small horn". Apparently the Temple ceremonies were mocked while heaven's armies remained trapped underground. The Messenger states that the above mentioned Temple will be restored [sanctuary will be cleansed] after 2300 evenings and mornings.

My question is, where is this Temple located? On Earth or in space? I don't believe it is both, therefore either the Temple on Earth was, or, the Temple in space [heaven] was trampled, profaned, and later restored. According to the Messenger, this Temple will be restored or cleansed after 2300 evenings and mornings.

I'm thinking that this Temple will be located on Earth in the future [Very End of Time] which would make the claim that the sanctuary in the heavens was somehow defiled by the little horn, then cleansed in 1844, bogus. Our Founding Fathers and Mothers did not do their OT homework very well.

The vision of the ram and goat in Dan 8 refers to events that will occur at the Very End of Time, according to the Messenger speaking to Dani-el. He also explained that the ram represents the kings of Media and Persia, while the shaggy goat represents Greece. Remember, this is at the Very End of Time.

Do the historicists believe that the Very End of Time occurred several thousand years ago and that, perhaps, we are now living in "hell" or "limbo"?

Not to worry. The 4 Beasts that once were will rise again from among oceans of humanity, at the Second Resurrection, during the Very End of Time, a relatively short period of just a few years, not millennia.

2300 days = about 6.4 years

[Lysimachus]

You are adding the phrase "Very end of time". No such expression exists.

There are many different kinds of "ends". Each empire had an "end".

You are also disjointing Daniel 9 from Daniel 8 when you place Daniel 8 exclusively in the future. Clearly, the 70 weeks were "cut off" from the 2300 evening-mornings. It was referring to the same vision by the same angel.

I say that the 2300 being "future" is bogus. :)

[ClubV12]

2300 days isn't days, it's years. Our pioneers did their homework very well indeed. Not only William Miller but numerous other people around the world came to the same conclusion, Daniels 2300 ended in 1844. This wasn't something "Adventists" cooked up, it was common knowledge. God does not give new light to one person.

The daily and the abomination was the Papacy coming to power in 538 AD, the beginning of the dark ages, the crusades, that would last until the Pope was taken captive and his power base eliminated in 1798, the deadly wound. The slaughter of Gods people was stopped, for a time. But the wound is almost healed, that power will rise again. The slaughter of Gods people will once again commence.

The "very end of time" is most often referred to as the "time of the end". Some place that with the deadly wound, 1798, others see it as 1844. It's not critical either way, personally, I see it as 1844 because THAT is when the 1335 year segment terminates.

The pioneers that came before us, those who learned from them and established the Adventist Church in 1863, they got it right!

[Aliensanctuary]

Dan 8 begins with a powerful Ram attacked and defeated by an even more powerful He-Goat.

The Little Big Horn springing from the four horns of the He-Goat grew even more powerful, attacking heaven's armies and flinging them, and the stars, to the ground. Capturing the Temple, it stopped the daily [sacrifices] and established a false religion. The Little Big Horn won the war, and prospered.

How long will the vision be:

1. Concerning the daily sacrifices

2. Transgression of desolation

3. Sanctuary and army trampled underfoot

These 3 points indicate that the starting point in time that the Holy One is referring to is the time when the daily [sacrifices] are ended and the Temple and heaven's army are trampled underfoot, not when the Ram and the He-Goat appear.

Dan 8:14

Quote:

"For 2,300 evenings {and} mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

Now where is this Holy Place located, in space (heaven) or on Earth? Since the Ram and He-Goat war against each other, we might expect the Temple to be located on Earth also. The Little Big Horn also attacks the army in space [heaven], throwing it to the surface of the planet.

It looks to me like the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings is when the Temple is over-run and some the armies of heaven are trapped underneath. Help will arrive to recapture the Temple and restore its proper functions at the end of the 2300 evening/morning period. That period would be approximately 6.4 years.

[ClubV12]

Alien, I think you are probably aware that your version of the prophecy is not in harmony with the Seventh-day Adventist version. Now this is not necessarily a problem on it's face. Some folks need more time to consider these things, even the best of us get caught up in different interpretations and have questions. The key is to NOT take such a hard and fast position on one version over another until you thoughtfully, prayerfully considerd that position. One important aspect of that is to consider the counsel of others, the brethren. Who shall these brethren be? Maybe some friends that are not Christians, don't expect much help there. Maybe some friends that are Christians but of another faith, that will lead to confusion. Maybe some friends that share your view already, but such counsel is suspect.

As a Seventh-day Adventist I would advise you study the issues with the learned men in your local Church. With an open mind, a humble spirit, wanting to prove all things and hold fast that which is good.

Now when folks have made up their mind and start preaching, teaching that which is NOT in harmony with their chosen Church, they need to stop fighting against that Church. They need to leave, start their own Church, go their own way, do their own thing, they have essentially disfellowshiped themselves!

THIS is WHY the group in Washington state is being asked to remove their membership or be disfellowshipped. They ARE preaching and teaching that which is not consistent with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Fine, just do your preaching somewhere else. So as not to confuse the public, folks that are removed from the Church need to understand that they are no longer a member. That they do not represent the Church in any capacity. Hopefully, the shock of all this (being delivered unto Satan is how the New Testament puts it) will help them see the error of their ways. Which in the end is the whole purpose of this in the first place, that those who are removed might be made whole and return to the fold.

[Gibs]

Aliensanctuary,

A lot of people miss the starting point for the 2300 of Dan 8 because it is not realized that chapters were put in by men. The vision is carried on in chapter 9. The Sanctuary was to be cleansed a the end of 2300, check the text again of Dan 8:13,14.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined (means cut off ) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

"Determined or cut off what"? That 2300 of 8:14

Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The command that was effectual was the one in BC 457, there were other ones but that one was obeyed. It is called the Decree.

It proves out perfectly as Jesus Christ did die in the middle of that 70'th week. verse 25 above 7+62=69. Then the following week of years They Crucified our Saviour in the middle year of it as prophecied.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Dan 8 begins with a powerful Ram attacked and defeated by an even more powerful He-Goat.

The Little Big Horn springing from the four horns of the He-Goat grew even more powerful, attacking heaven's armies and flinging them, and the stars, to the ground. Capturing the Temple, it stopped the daily [sacrifices] and established a false religion. The Little Big Horn won the war, and prospered.

How long will the vision be:

1. Concerning the daily sacrifices

2. Transgression of desolation

3. Sanctuary and army trampled underfoot

These 3 points indicate that the starting point in time that the Holy One is referring to is the time when the daily [sacrifices] are ended and the Temple and heaven's army are trampled underfoot, not when the Ram and the He-Goat appear.

Dan 8:14

Quote:

"For 2,300 evenings {and} mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

Now where is this Holy Place located, in space (heaven) or on Earth? Since the Ram and He-Goat war against each other, we might expect the Temple to be located on Earth also. The Little Big Horn also attacks the army in space [heaven], throwing it to the surface of the planet.

It looks to me like the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings is when the Temple is over-run and some the armies of heaven are trapped underneath. Help will arrive to recapture the Temple and restore its proper functions at the end of the 2300 evening/morning period. That period would be approximately 6.4 years.

The word "concerning" does not exist in the original Hebrew. The question in Daniel 8:13 encompasses the vision beginning with the ram. Not just the daily.

[cheddar]

Dan 8 begins with a powerful Ram attacked and defeated by an even more powerful He-Goat.

The Little Big Horn springing from the four horns of the He-Goat grew even more powerful, attacking heaven's armies and flinging them, and the stars, to the ground. Capturing the Temple, it stopped the daily [sacrifices] and established a false religion. The Little Big Horn won the war, and prospered.

How long will the vision be:

1. Concerning the daily sacrifices

2. Transgression of desolation

3. Sanctuary and army trampled underfoot

These 3 points indicate that the starting point in time that the Holy One is referring to is the time when the daily [sacrifices] are ended and the Temple and heaven's army are trampled underfoot, not when the Ram and the He-Goat appear.

Dan 8:14

Quote:

"For 2,300 evenings {and} mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

Now where is this Holy Place located, in space (heaven) or on Earth? Since the Ram and He-Goat war against each other, we might expect the Temple to be located on Earth also. The Little Big Horn also attacks the army in space [heaven], throwing it to the surface of the planet.

It looks to me like the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings is when the Temple is over-run and some the armies of heaven are trapped underneath. Help will arrive to recapture the Temple and restore its proper functions at the end of the 2300 evening/morning period. That period would be approximately 6.4 years.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm, not IF the 1844 time was correct but the event itself was mistaken. Remember Dan. 2's prophecy? Jesus said in Matt. 21:46 that a time would come that this NEW Kingdom of Heaven would become set up. What IF that was the event? To me, that is what I believe as the host for the kingdom of heaven were basically established at that time. Set up without hand's too. And they sure fit the ten virgin prophecy!

[ClubV12]

1844 certainly stands as THEE definitive date for the end of the 2,300 year prophecy. Many authors for over a 100 years, NON ADVENTISTS have come to that conclusion over and over.

Daniel DID give the exact starting date and many many way points along the way. William Miller is of course the most well know for this important prophecy, but he was certainly not alone. So we KNOW 1844 stands, it's a valid question, what DID it mean?

Adventists have a particular view point on the meaning, I concur, I do believe they have it right.

[Lysimachus]

Dan 8 begins with a powerful Ram attacked and defeated by an even more powerful He-Goat.

The Little Big Horn springing from the four horns of the He-Goat grew even more powerful, attacking heaven's armies and flinging them, and the stars, to the ground. Capturing the Temple, it stopped the daily [sacrifices] and established a false religion. The Little Big Horn won the war, and prospered.

How long will the vision be:

1. Concerning the daily sacrifices

2. Transgression of desolation

3. Sanctuary and army trampled underfoot

These 3 points indicate that the starting point in time that the Holy One is referring to is the time when the daily [sacrifices] are ended and the Temple and heaven's army are trampled underfoot, not when the Ram and the He-Goat appear.

Dan 8:14

Quote:

"For 2,300 evenings {and} mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

Now where is this Holy Place located, in space (heaven) or on Earth? Since the Ram and He-Goat war against each other, we might expect the Temple to be located on Earth also. The Little Big Horn also attacks the army in space [heaven], throwing it to the surface of the planet.

It looks to me like the starting point for the 2300 evenings and mornings is when the Temple is over-run and some the armies of heaven are trapped underneath. Help will arrive to recapture the Temple and restore its proper functions at the end of the 2300 evening/morning period. That period would be approximately 6.4 years.

You are injecting private interpretation into Daniel 8:14.

First off, the trampling does not span the entire period of the 2300 years, rather, the "trampling" is just one of the elements. The 2300 days encompasses the (1) "chazon" (entire vision beginning with the Ram in Daniel 8:2-4), (2) the daily (Christ's intercessory work in the Holy Place), and (3) the transgression of desolation to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot.

The "trampling" does not encompass the entire 2300, but is a part of it. The same it is with the "chazon" and the "daily".

Also, the word "daily" is added, and is not part of original language. The term "daily" is often used in connection with the lambs burning "daily", evening and morning throughout the year. (i.e. Ezek 46:13). The expression "continual" is not necessarily tied with sacrifices. The issue has to do with Christ's continual ministration in the heavenly sanctuary (Exodus 29:38; Exodus 25:3; Exodus 27:2-21; Exodus 29:38; Exodus 30:8; Hebrews 7:3, 27; 9:6; 10:1, 11 -- continually concerning Christ). In a nutshell, the language of Daniel 8:13 and 14 is the language of Hebrews concerning the heavenly sanctuary--which mirrors the earthly spiritual sanctuary, which is realized in God's people. So while the events are transpiring ON the earth, it has an intrinsical correlation to heaven's sanctuary for which the earthly spiritual sanctuary (God's people) have an intimate coalescing relationship with. So yes, the sanctuary IS on the earth--the spiritual sanctuary that is...for which the HEAVENLY represents! Thus we see how embarrassingly simple this really is, in light of the fact that detractors of Adventism continuously fail to understand and ascertain Christ's two-fold sanctuary---the spiritual earthly and the literal heavenly. When you attack God's people ON EARTH, you are attacking Christ's literal sanctuary in heaven, as that sanctuary is a symbol of God's people on earth. Oh the beauty of TRUTH!!

Thirdly, the fact that the Ram and the Goat are on earth means absolutely nothing in relation to the sanctuary. The time the sanctuary is mentioned is in relation to the Little Horn attacking vertically the sanctuary in heaven. Verses 10 and 11 concerning the "stars" the "host of heaven", and "even to the prince OF the host" is unequivocal proof that the "sanctuary" in verses 11, 13, and 14 are referring to a sanctuary in heaven, and non-other. The difference in the Hebrew word "qodesh" in verse 14 from "miqdash" in verses 11 and 13 also shows that the particular issue is zeroed in on the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

Lastly, a proper rendering of Daniel 8:13 is thus:

"Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” (8:13, NLT)

"Then I heard a holy one speaking. And another holy one said to the one that spoke, “How long will it take for the things seen in the dream to happen? How long will the burnt gifts be taken, and sin allowed to destroy, so that the holy place and the army of heaven are crushed under foot?” (8:13, NLF)

Or would could just render it thus:

"“How long will the vision be, the daily, the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

However, let's assume for a moment that the word "concerning" does belong in the text.

Let's look at this closely:

"Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” (Daniel 8:13)

What is the "transgression of desolation"? A more proper rending is, "transgression causing horror". Strong exegetical studies show this to be the transgression of God's people. Sound exegetical studies also show that the "transgression" of God's people is intrinsically linked to both the earthly and the heavenly sanctuary.

Transgression of God's people most certainly also took place during the 490 years, and it was precisely this "transgression" of God's people that God had wanted Israel to put an "end" to in Daniel 9:24. The issues in Daniel 8:13 are far more encompassing than just the daily. All issues relating to the "vision", the "daily", the "transgression causing horror", AND the "trodding under foot of the sanctuary" allow for the 2300 years to stretch over a HUGE period of time, and 457 B.C. is the correct starting date, because that is when the earthly sanctuary went into "full operation and function" as it was inaugurated and the priestly function commenced according to Ezra 7.

The first 486 1/2 years, the focus was on the earthly sanctuary, but when Christ ascended to heaven, the sanctuary's operation followed where Christ went, and He went to heaven in 31 A.D. So the focus in the middle of the 2300 years shifts from the earthly literal temple which represented God's people--or spiritual temple, to the heavenly literal temple which represented God's people--or spiritual temple.

In addition to this, we might add the following translation for a portion::

"And I heard a holy one speaking, and a holy one said to Palmoni, who was the speaker, "How long shall be the vision,' etc."

The word "Palmoni" means "Wonderful Numberer", which is non-other than Jesus Christ according to Isaiah 9:6. Therefore, Christ is numbering a LARGE time span here, not some measly 2300 literal days in the past or into the future. God's eyes is all-encompassing over the span of history in this prophecy. UNEQUIVOCALLY! Whether this is likable or not.

Many assume that the beginning of the 2300 must commence only with the daily, but this is not what the text says. It includes the "transgression that causes horror".

[tall73]

First off, the trampling does not span the entire period of the 2300 years, rather, the "trampling" is just one of the elements. The 2300 days encompasses the (1) "chazon" (entire vision beginning with the Ram in Daniel 8:2-4),

Can you explain how that would work? How would the 2,300 days encompass 8:2-4?

Dan 8:3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

We see the ram charging westward, and northward and southward. He became great.

Do you see this happening AFTER 457 B.C.?

What does the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary say about this expansion?

4. Pushing Westward. Cyrus conquered Lydia in 547 B.C. and Babylon in 539.

So this westward movement pictured in the vision, according to the Bible commentary, is describing the conquest of Lydia and Babylon which were to the west of Persia.

The vision would start at the latest then by 539 BC, the conquest of Babylon, and perhaps as early as 547 or shortly before. This is considerably before the date you favor of 457.

Do you have other movements in those directions that happened after 457?

And didn't the power become great BEFORE 457?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

First off, the trampling does not span the entire period of the 2300 years, rather, the "trampling" is just one of the elements. The 2300 days encompasses the (1) "chazon" (entire vision beginning with the Ram in Daniel 8:2-4),

Can you explain how that would work? How would the 2,300 days encompass 8:2-4?

Dan 8:3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

We see the ram charging westward, and northward and southward. He became great.

Do you see this happening AFTER 457 B.C.?

What does the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary say about this expansion?

4. Pushing Westward. Cyrus conquered Lydia in 547 B.C. and Babylon in 539.

So this westward movement pictured in the vision, according to the Bible commentary, is describing the conquest of Lydia and Babylon which were to the west of Persia.

The vision would start at the latest then by 539 BC, the conquest of Babylon, and perhaps as early as 547 or shortly before. This is considerably before the date you favor of 457.

Do you have other movements in those directions that happened after 457?

And didn't the power become great BEFORE 457?

I'll give it to you that you do raise a good question. Thank you for asking.

To be honest, I guess I would consider this a non-issue. The point is, it started sometime "during" the ram. The Ram is seen just "standing" there when the vision starts. It wasn't seen rising up out of the sea, coming from the sky, or rising up out of the earth, for example. It was just "there" when the vision started. Yet Daniel is given a glimpse of what this Ram "did". And what did it do? It pushed westward, northward, and southward.

I would argue that arguments such as these border on the "extreme"--zeroing in on technicalities that really do not weigh in on the major issues. The point is, Daniel 9 provides the answer to the commencement of the mareh time element. And since the issue of the sanctuary is "central" in chapters 8 and 9", it would seem that this time period of "2300 evening-mornings (sanctuary activities)" would commence with the decree that made the sanctuary fully operational, and this happened in 457 B.C. according to Ezra 7.

[Gibs]

ClubV12 states

"Recant, withdraw from Church membership or be disfellowshipped.

Of course the usuall rhetoric then follows: The Church is acting like the "Pope", freedom of speech is being curtailed, etc.

The fact is, removing such from Church membership is the only alternative. Those "fighting against" the fundamental beliefs of the Church cannot be allowed to continue to be a part of the body. At some point, action has to be taken.

It's about time, I applaud the Newport, Washington Adventist Church finding the courage to take a stand".

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Sure fellow get rid of them guys that read the Bible and see something we don't kosher. Force em or out they got to go. Well that is as hierarchial as the Catholic system for sure.

We don't want you bringing out that Bible and showing a discenting view on anything. We got it right, you follow us!

Got news for you that are of that opinion, it won't happen, I for one will follow only One and that is Jesus Christ and His Word. We some of us post the truth of some of these controverted subjects and the followers of the structure won't even consider and fly back with an answer that has no substance. The come back in essense is, we are right, we hold with the structure.

EGW told you we have much to unlearn and much to learn. I suggest follow that advice.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Paul said the same thing in regards to those in the Church who fought against it or preached error. Deliver them unto Satan. And Paul wasn't Catholic or hierarchial.

It's just common sense Gib's, if you want to join and be a member of a any group, you observe the rules and regulations of that group. Or go start your own group, as you did.

[tall73]

Sure fellow get rid of them guys that read the Bible and see something we don't kosher. Force em or out they got to go. Well that is as hierarchial as the Catholic system for sure.

We don't want you bringing out that Bible and showing a discenting view on anything. We got it right, you follow us!

Is this surprising you?

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {1SM 161.2}

Ellen White said don't receive those with Bible texts if the intent was to overthrow the special points of Adventist doctrine.

She indicates that in these points the experience of the pioneers shows that their interpretation is correct. Therefore any Bible text you bring must be wrong.

Experience above the Bible...

[ClubV12]

"New light", which in most cases is a new understanding of "Old light" will build upon that which has been established, the foundation. It will not replace or move the pillars.

Look, again, it's just common sense, at some point you have to determine certain aspects of doctrine and move on. If you don't you will forever be searching and going in circles, you will never have any piece as you wonder and worry what should I do.

Certain fundamental pillar and foundations of doctrine must remain. The Sabbath is the seventh day, there is no room to consider if that point if incorrect or not. The matter is settled, moving on...

There are about a 1,000 different Christian Churches out there to choose from. If you don't like what the Mormons believe, try the Methodists. If you don't agree with the fundamental doctrines of the Adventists, try the Jehovah Witness'.

If you think you have some new light for any given Church what should you do about it? Submit it to the brethren for due consideration. What if they reject it? Then your going to have to leave that faith at some point. If you continue to stir up trouble, fail to submit to the brethren, attack the organization, you will be shown the door. In the end it's YOUR CHOICE, it's NOT the problem of the organization. It's ridiculous to insist that the entire organization move it's pillars and foundation because some SMALL group said the doctrines were wrong.

The pioneers dealt with this, they to had to leave their faith in the various Churches of which they were members. The leadership did not accept the new light offered. So what did the Adventist pioneers do about it? They left, started their own Church. There not asking anybody to do something they haven't done or were willing to do themselves.

Are you STILL here? Why? What part of "we reject your new light" don't you understand? You've done your part, you presented the data, now get on with your life. And don't let the screen door hit you on the backside on your way out.

[Dr. Rich]

Paul said the same thing in regards to those in the Church who fought against it or preached error. Deliver them unto Satan. And Paul wasn't Catholic or hierarchial.

It's just common sense Gib's, if you want to join and be a member of a any group, you observe the rules and regulations of that group. Or go start your own group, as you did.

You did NOT finish why Paul said he delivered them to Satan--and that was to save their souls. WHAT a farce! Can you ever see Jesus doing that my friends? No way!

As for Paul being Cathoic? Ha Ha, Think again--as the Catholic church was founded upon the words of Paul! Just what "church" did Paul invent?

[Dr. Rich]

Tall73, so you do admit that your god is Aunt Ellen? It appears that you would rather follow her words than follow the words of Jesus in regards to this issue. Wow, right now it appears that the foolish out number the wise virging!

[Dr. Rich]

Nope Club, you have it backwords. Trimming the wick means getting rid of ALL of the old mistaken belief's you had in order to let you light shine bright again. Even EGW said that one must UNLEARN (get rid of) the stuff that does not agree with the words of Jesus in order to LEARN the truth.

[ClubV12]

Dr.Rich says,

"....that was to save their souls." Pauls reference to delivering those IN the Church to Satan.

Good point Dr.Rich, such a powerful verse DOES need to be understood. The purpose is indeed to help them see and understand their error. To repent and return to the body of believers.

You have much to unlearn Dr.Rich, you have been teaching error for many years, not only in my opinion, the opinion of the Adventist Church. I would, that God in His mercy, would "deliver you to Satan" by removing your membership from the Adventist Church. That you might see the error of your ways and return to the fold. I do say that in a spirit of love, as it should be. A terrible thing to do, but for some, it is their only hope. This was exactly what Paul was all about when he offered this counsel. No one, with a right spirit, a right heart, takes any pleasure in these things.

And if you believe so strongly in your theology and cannot come into harmony with the Adventist Church on these doctrinal points, then please, do start your own Church. It's what the pioneers did!