Sanctuary

[John317]

Very good points and very well put, Bob. :-)

[Dr. Rich]

How can one say that the Master is delaying IF you did not know the time He was to come already?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Now use your brain for a second: IF NO ONE is to know when Jesus is going to come because Jesus said so, then give me ONE good reason for Jesus to do what He said He will do to him IF NO ONE IS TO KNOW ANY WAY? Huh?

The parable tells you. One was doing what the Master said and the other was not.

Neither knew the time. The key was to be found ready, not to know when to get ready.

I see your problem. You called this a 'parable' while all the time it is truely prophecy. Jesus said He told things in parables so that those who did not want to know the truth would never understand, but only those who had insight would understand. (Matt. 13:10-13)

It is correct that this is the same ONE person who was left in charge of the Master's house. If this person knew the time he would NOT let the thief break into the house. Therefore, this ONE person does know the time and is giveing this information (food) to his fellow servants (the 144k). It should be clear that this ONE person is the one Jesus called the "Elijah" to come in Matt. 17.

Matt. 24:48-51 show us what would have happened IF that ONE person KNEW the time, but saw that it was a long way off, so he simple did not want to cause problems with anyone and partied with them. Jesus said because of him NOT knowing the hour (not the day or year), this person will be cut to pieces.

As I asked you before, IF no one is to know the exact time, then why would Jesus cut this guy up? This whole thing blows your belief to shreds.

AND- just what is "it" that the ONE person will be feeding the fellow servants when Jesus does come like a thief? Notice that this ONE person is not feeding everyone?

So please tell me if you can, WHO is this ONE person and what is "it" that this one person will be feeding the fellow servants, AND just who are the "fellow servants"? Hint=Rev. 1:1

[ClubV12]

It seemed like such a simple question, WHERE is the Throne of the Father located?

Apparently there is no clear answer. I asked that same question in my Tuesday night study class and nobody knew the answer there either.

I'm surprised, it seemed like a simple question...

[Gibs]

"In the temple in heaven, the dwelling place of God, His throne is established in righteousness and judgment. In the most holy place is His law, the great rule of right by which all mankind are tested. The ark that enshrines the tables of the law is covered with the mercy seat, before which Christ pleads His blood in the sinner's behalf. Thus is represented the union of justice and mercy in the plan of human redemption". . . . {AG 69.2}

The veil in the pattern separated the Holy from the Most Holy and the Most Holy the High Priest went into to the presence of God which represents Jesus Christ in the Heavenly.

A door is opened below, what to can only be one place I would think,

Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Re 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Re 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Re 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Re 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Re 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Re 4:8 ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

It seemed like such a simple question, WHERE is the Throne of the Father located?

Apparently there is no clear answer. I asked that same question in my Tuesday night study class and nobody knew the answer there either.

I'm surprised, it seemed like a simple question...

The Father's throne was in the Holy Place prior to 1844, and in the Most Holy Place after 1844.

I encourage you to watch this sermon by Pastor Austin P. Cook, from New Zealand (but lives in Australia):

http://www.thesourcehh.org/video/austin_cooke/86_SAN_Defense_Sanctuary.htm

One of the best sermons ever on the sanctuary, the furniture therein, and the presence of God.

This is what you call "good ol' Adventism at its BEST!" :D

[Dr. Rich]

It is not the truth marcos, please read what Jesus said about all of this and then make your judgment.

[Lysimachus]

It is not the truth marcos, please read what Jesus said about all of this and then make your judgment.

:)

[ClubV12]

Nice post Gibs on Revelation chapter 4. Thanks for the link Marcos, I think I will check that sermon out.

Revelation 4 appears to be talking about "a" throne in the Holy Place can we assume this is the Fathers throne? Verse 5 and the the seven lamps of burning fire correspond to the candlestick in the Holy Place.

I have no doubt where Jesus is right now, ministering in the Holy Place, has been since 1844. I'm just trying to put together the ascension events. inaguaration and Christs ministry since then. Perhaps the sermon Marcos linked to will shed additional light on these issues.

[Lysimachus]

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Without question, it's the Father's throne in the Holy Place. There's no way around it. Jesus is the one standing before the one who "sits" on the throne. Jesus sits down WITH His Father ON HIS throne according to 3:21. The same throne is being alluded to in 5:1, concerning God the Father sitting on the throne. Then the Lamb comes and takes the book out of the hand of him that sits upon it. Who is that? The Father of course.

[ClubV12]

Well done Marcos, really nails it down.

Now is the Fathers throne STILL in the Holy while Jesus ministers in the Holiest at this time in history? Your comment that the Fathers throne is NOW in the Holiest is based on what?

[BobRyan]

It seemed like such a simple question, WHERE is the Throne of the Father located?

Apparently there is no clear answer. I asked that same question in my Tuesday night study class and nobody knew the answer there either.

I'm surprised, it seemed like a simple question...

In Daniel 7 the Throne of God is said to have wheels of fire. The Ancient of Days comes to the court room and takes his seat. And later the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days in that courtroom "with the clouds of heaven"

The teaching is that they both can move and that neither of them were in the court room BEFORE they came to it in Daniel 7.

In Heb 10 it is clear that Christ is with the Father on His throne starting long before the Daniel 7 event.

In any case - it is not too difficult to see the Bible support for the teaching that at His ascension Christ was with the Father in the Heavenly Sanctuary - and that this corresponds to the holy place ministry God spoke of in the earthly "illustration" of the heavenly reality.

And then in Dan 7 and 8 we have the revelation that the judgment phase of that heavenly sanctuary begins after the dark ages are over.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

Well done Marcos, really nails it down.

Now is the Fathers throne STILL in the Holy while Jesus ministers in the Holiest at this time in history? Your comment that the Fathers throne is NOW in the Holiest is based on what?

God's throne (and all the thrones) were moved, and placed in the Most Holy Place in 1844. Daniel 7 mentions an 1844 scene. Revelation 4 and 5 mentions an A.D. 31 scene.

[Lysimachus]

ClubV12,

Be ready to be blown away. This series will give you a lot of die-hard sanctuary answers:

His Way Is In The Sanctuary

24 out of 32 of the videos have been uploaded so far. It is a new series. The most exegetical and exhaustive I have ever seen on the sanctuary. He presents all our doctrines by traveling through the sanctuary.

If you want to cut to the chase concerning the IJ, start with video #11 (The Chronology of the Judgment) and work your way through.

[Gordon1]

I need to put that time into Bible study.

[Plley]

Lysimachus,

Somewhere (I lost the page) you say that The IJ and the Sabbath are linked together.

It sounds very interesting to me, and feel as if there is a deep truth behind it, could you explain a bit more why you say that?

[Gordon1]

Thanks Marcos, I took ten minutes to look at the #11 video you recommended.

Around minute 22-23, Stephen Bohr states that 'the Heruli, Vandals & Ostrogoths were the three tribes plucked up by the roots (Daniel 7:8). Plucked up because they were Arian and believed that Jesus was a created being.'

And so Rome had to destroy them.

But Arius did not teach that Christ was a created being - instead he taught that Christ is begotten of the Father - quite different from a created being.

Created beings were made by the Father through the Son. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.." (Genesis 1:26). But Christ alone is the Only Begotten Son, made in the express image of His Father. (Hebrews 1:3)

The Arian tribes were Christian as you have noted, both in doctrine and religious liberty, but were plucked up by Rome because they were not Trinitarian. They opposed the Trinity doctrine.

The Trinity is the central doctrine of Roman Catholicism - the binding tenet of her ecumenical movement - to believe otherwise is heresy and must be rooted out.

[Lysimachus]

Thanks Marcos, I took ten minutes to look at the #11 video you recommended.

Around minute 22-23, Stephen Bohr states that 'the Heruli, Vandals & Ostrogoths were the three tribes plucked up by the roots (Daniel 7:8). Plucked up because they were Arian and believed that Jesus was a created being.'

And so Rome had to destroy them.

[Guest]

Be ready to be blown away. This series will give you a lot of die-hard sanctuary answers:

His Way Is In The Sanctuary

Thanks for this Marcos!

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus,

Somewhere (I lost the page) you say that The IJ and the Sabbath are linked together.

It sounds very interesting to me, and feel as if there is a deep truth behind it, could you explain a bit more why you say that?

I'll get back to you on this as soon as I can sister! =]

[John317]

How can one say that the Master is delaying IF you did not know the time He was to come already?

Because the Bible teaches that there would be a delay in the return of Christ.

[John317]

Created beings were made by the Father through the Son. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.." (Genesis 1:26). But Christ alone is the Only Begotten Son, made in the express image of His Father. (Hebrews 1:3)

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

I don't have a problem with this. It's a very deep and beautiful subject indeed. I'm still studying and learning the mysteries of the Godhead. All very fascinating. The relationship between the Father and His Son is truly tear-jerking.

What does the Bible mean by the use of the word "only begotten" in relationship to Christ?

Does it mean that there was a point when the pre-existent Christ was not?

Also, does the "truly tear-jerking relationship between Father and Son" necessitate the Son's deriving His life from the Father?

John 1: 1 does not indicate that there was a point when the Word was not with God. Also, the last clause of John 1: 1 signifies that the Word had all the same attributes as God, so that in fact the Word was God Himself.

Ellen White says directly that the pre-existent Christ was the "eternal, self-existent Son." "Self-existent" means not relying on anyone or any thing for one's existence. Only God is self-existent. Christ is God. John 1: 1; Titus 2: 13; John 21: 28; Phil. 2: 6; Romans 9: 5.

[Gordon1]

Before Bethlehem, before creation, before Lucifer's fall, Christ was God's Dear Son.

At Bethlehem the Son of God also became Son of Man.

[skyblue888]

"With solemn dignity Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.' Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One. He who had been promised to Israel, 'whose going forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.'" D.A.469,470.

sky

[Gibs]

Jesus says and He is the Truth,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

One must realize there is only one "first", means before any other, so how can that be? Easy, He and the Father "are One"!

EGW states of Him,

""Before Abraham was, I am." Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God. The message He gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel was, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." The prophet Micah writes of Him, "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, tho thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of Thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." {ST, August 29, 1900 par. 13}

Through Solomon Christ declared: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth. . . . When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment; when He appointed the foundations of the earth; then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." {ST, August 29, 1900 par. 14}

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Here is some verses revealing much that many do not realize, read carefully with understanding!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.