Sanctuary

[tall73]

What would have happened if Miller had preached that the Investigative Judgment was about to begin? Would such a message have been taken as seriously as the message that Jesus was coming? Of course not. It would have been ignored.

[Dr. Rich]

Tall73. Did you understand the last verses of Matthew 24? Here is a guy who is told to KNOW when Jesus is to come, yet he refuses to tell others aobut this time and he goes out to drink with the rest of his friends. Jesus comes at a time he does not know and for this, Jesus will cut him to pieces and throw him in (the lake of fire with the other wicked people).

Now use your brain for a second: IF NO ONE is to know when Jesus is going to come because Jesus said so, then give me ONE good reason for Jesus to do what He said He will do to him IF NO ONE IS TO KNOW ANY WAY? Huh? Come on folks, use that brain of your's for some real good. Jesus said that ONLY His Father knew--but in Rev. 1:1-3 Jesus was told when He was to come and shared this SAME news with the Catholics. NO--He gave this information ONLY to those bondservants living in the last generation! Why? Cause it does not pertain to anyone else! Why again? Cause Jesus would NOT leave His Bondservants not knowing when and how Jesus is to come, both as a thief before the time of trouble, and at the end after the 7th trumpet blows and the would ends.

Now, does anyone here honestly want to know and how this all happens?

[Dr. Rich]

Quote:

There's a sense in which Jesus did come in 1844-- only He didn't come to this earth, but He came to His temple to begin judgment.

Miller's message was to the earth friend. And it was false. And it was that false message that contradicted Jesus that was rejected.

The true first angel's message is not a false message.

Miller's message was demonstrably, absolutely false.

Quote:

It would have been like Jesus preaching that He was going to die as a common criminal. Such a message would not have been paid attention to.

But He did say that. He told His disciples plainly. And He told folks to take up their CROSS and follow Him.

Mar 8:34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

He did not give a false message as Miller did.

Quote:

What people paid attention to was the message that "the king" had come and that He would set up His kingdom.

Did Jesus give them a false message? The answer is no.

Did Miller give a false message? The answer is yes. And Miller's message was not only false, but contradicted the words of Jesus.

[tall73]

Well as you have seen a few dozen times by now - all the sacrifices for all the services are met in the ONE sacrifice of Heb 10 - on the cross... once.

One Sacrifice and ONE entry into the Heavenly Sanctuary.

As you well know - SDAs have never argued that in heaven Christ must come back to earth and offer Himself up "again" on the cross for each event in the heavenly sanctuary.

Thus the purification made for sins - on the cross - is brought into the heavenly sanctuary "once".

This is true for the Passover it is also true for the Day of Atonement and for the inauguration of both the Holy Place and Most Holy Place.

One sacrifice, One entry into the Sanctuary -

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: John317

So also were the disciples mistaken on Palm Sunday when they thought Christ was coming to be crowned as King.

But they were not mistaken because Jesus did not tell them the truth.

He plainly stated on numerous occasions the truth:

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Mat 16:22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you."

On the other hand Miller had a false message that contradicted Jesus.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Wow, powerful verse Daniel 7:13. That opens up a whole new view, for me, of the inaugeration of the Sanctuary after the ascension and the impact of 1844. Good stuff on this thread if you can cut through the clutter and trash to find it. Like digging for hidden treasure.

Dan. 7:13 is when the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of God--and this has not happened yet and will not happen until the very last trumpe

t (7) blows.

Yes, and if you take the passage as it reads, Jesus does not show up until the judgment is already over.

Dan 7:11 "I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Dan 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

And it also includes judgment on the Medes, Babylonians, etc. who were not professed people of God. This is not the Adventist IJ.

[tall73]

I don't find in Daniel 7 that it "... says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days".

Daniel 7:13 "I kept watching the night visions, when I saw, coming with the clouds of heaven, someone like a son of man. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence.

There you go, not sure how you can miss that. Also to really get good context please read the verses before and after.

[tall73]

Looks clear to me too!!!!

Good to see you Daryl!

By the way, can you show me in Daniel 7 where it says 1844?

Now if you want to make a case for tying texts together, feel free. But Daniel 7 does not say it, and that was what the comment was about.

[Lysimachus]

He plainly stated on numerous occasions the truth:

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Mat 16:22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you."

He told this to the multitude? Or to the disciples?

Jesus did not quiet the multitude when they were singing Hosannah as they were welcoming Him as King in the triumphal entry. This colt ride was Jesus leading them to believe that He was coming to get crowned king. This was a coronation entry. A ceremony. Jesus did not stop them from thinking this way.

Are you saying Jesus preached to everyone in this multitude and told them that He was about to be crucified?

Like we have said before Tall73, you are trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Jesus did not mislead His disciples, but His disciples, due to their misunderstanding of Jesus' words, did not make known Christ's sufferings to the multitude.

Likewise, Miller misunderstood Jesus' words in Daniel, and due to this misunderstanding preached that the earth was the sanctuary that was going to be cleansed by fire.

Yet, God was in the movement.

If you have a hard time with this, that is your problem, not God's. You're just going to have to deal with God's ways, despite the fact that you think God is dealing in an unfair way. That's just how it is.

[tall73]

Tall73, Miller and group were studying TIME because that is exactly what prophecy is all about my friend. Jesus told us to BE READY, yet how can on truely be ready without knowing the time for the event?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett

Looks clear to me too!!!!

Good to see you Daryl!

By the way, can you show me in Daniel 7 where it says 1844?

Since when have we stooped so low to ask this elementary question? That's like asking, "where in Daniel 9 does it say 27 A.D., 31 A.D, or 34 A.D.?"

You, being a former SDA pastor, should be familiar with the parallels put forth between Daniel 7 and Daniel 8. Daniel 8 does not give the exact date. It gives a "rough timing". After the Little Horn power, but prior to the Second Advent, when Christ CAME to the Ancient of Days (who is in heaven, not on earth). Daniel 8 and 9 gives the precise date.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

He plainly stated on numerous occasions the truth:

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Mat 16:22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you."

He told this to the multitude? Or to the disciples?

[tall73]

It gives a "rough timing". After the Little Horn power, but prior to the Second Advent, when Christ CAME to the Ancient of Days (who is in heaven, not on earth). Daniel 8 and 9 gives the precise date.

According to Daniel 7 He shows up after the judgment on the little horn entirely.

And in Daniel 8 the vision was sealed up and true before Daniel 9 was ever given.

It is only your "face saving" view as you noted, that must pull in a new starting point.

[tall73]

Tall73. Did you understand the last verses of Matthew 24? Here is a guy who is told to KNOW when Jesus is to come, yet he refuses to tell others aobut this time and he goes out to drink with the rest of his friends. Jesus comes at a time he does not know and for this, Jesus will cut him to pieces and throw him in (the lake of fire with the other wicked people).

Incorrect.

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

First He says plainly the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Second he characterizes the wise servant who is still doing the work the Master gave him when the Master arrives.

That servant did not know the time. But that servant was ready, because He was doing what the Master asked.

But then he takes the other side of it. What if the servant gets lazy and does not do what the master asked. He still does not know the day. But now he is not ready.

Mat 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,'

Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,

Mat 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In neither case did the servant know. The difference was in one he was doing what the Master told him to do , and the other he was not.

[tall73]

Now use your brain for a second: IF NO ONE is to know when Jesus is going to come because Jesus said so, then give me ONE good reason for Jesus to do what He said He will do to him IF NO ONE IS TO KNOW ANY WAY? Huh?

The parable tells you. One was doing what the Master said and the other was not.

Neither knew the time. The key was to be found ready, not to know when to get ready.

[tall73]

Jesus said that ONLY His Father knew--but in Rev. 1:1-3 Jesus was told when He was to come and shared this SAME news with the Catholics. NO--He gave this information ONLY to those bondservants living in the last generation!

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Rev 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

It does not say anywhere there that Jesus will tell His servants the time of His coming. It says He will show what must take place.

Moreover, there is no reason for Jesus to tell a story about the servant at the coming of Jesus not knowing if they were in fact to know.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Miller had every right to interpret these words according to his understanding. Jesus did not say that no one would "ever" know the day or the hour of His return. He said no man "knoweth" (present). Also, the pioneers put much exegesis into dealing with these passages, and show how they interpret these messages from Jesus. They had every right to put forth their understanding of these passages.

No, Jesus did not just speak about that time, but about the time when He would come.

They still would not know:

Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Mat 24:47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

Mat 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,'

Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,

Mat 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[BobRyan]

It gives a "rough timing". After the Little Horn power, but prior to the Second Advent, when Christ CAME to the Ancient of Days (who is in heaven, not on earth). Daniel 8 and 9 gives the precise date.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett

Looks clear to me too!!!!

Good to see you Daryl!

By the way, can you show me in Daniel 7 where it says 1844?

Daniel 7 details include the pre-advent investigative judgment that starts after the division of the Roman empire and after the rise of Papal Rome.

Daniel 7 shows that this judgment does not finish until after the 1260 years of the dark ages.

That alone negates all other eschatologies but the SDA one.

The "detail" for 1844 is not added to this picture until Dan 8 - so it is crafty of you to ask about that detail not being in Daniel 7. (But of course - you already knew that). Indeed it is not until chapter 8 that we find it.

in Christ,

Bob

[tall73]

First, your passage says "hour", not "year".

[tall73]

Quote:

Moreover, you didn't address the fact that you contradicte Ellen White also because she applied the day or hour text to date setting by Adventists after 1844, and condemned it

After the fact, and "after" the knowledge of the truth came, it became wrong to set dates. Greater light was revealed after 1844. Nonetheless, the movement was still lead by God.

Huh? You mean she can use Jesus' words later to say you shouldn't set dates, but Jesus words were not true before to mean that?

Please explain.

How can she use the words of Jesus to show that date setting is wrong after 1844, but Jesus words did not mean that before 1844?

And AFTER THE FACT was not needed if they had just listened to Jesus' words in the first place.

[tall73]

Just like Jesus will one day know the day and the hour of His own coming, so likewise, God's people will know it too. Jesus was included among those who do not know it.

Apollos Hale refuted your argument over a century ago I see.

No, the faithful servant is included in there too:

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

[ClubV12]

So,,, uh,,, WHERE is/was the Fathers throne at any given time?

Specifically, (we know it's in heaven obviously).

[BobRyan]

Now, had Miller limited himself to saying "the second coming is near" we would not be having any issue would we?

But he did not. He said 1843, and that was a false time setting message.

Adventist literature since the 1800's has always said that the Millerites were incorrect in regard to the event that they predicted - but not in regard to the time.

In the same way - on Palm Sunday the disciples were not announcing that the Messiah had come to pay the substitutionary atoning death required to atone for all the sins of the whole world - rather they were proclaiming Christ as Messiah - king of Israel to sit on the throne of David.

Hint: Christ let them do that - More than this He encouraged them to make that grand announcement and when the Pharisees came in to shut them down - Christ said it was all approved by God and no man could stand against it.

However a prophetic message was given in Matt 16 about what would really happen -- and they rejected it.

In the same way God gave a prophetic message before 1844 predicting the 3 angels messages to follow the 2300 year end event - and that message was also rejected.

How can you choose to be content to consistently choose to be on the wrong side of history - when you know that we are nearing the final events?

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

I have former Adventist friends who accept the Sabbath but not the IJ.

No one is suggesting that people don't keep the Sabbath even though they may not believe in the IJ.

The point being made is that the urgency in keeping the Sabbath even under penalty of death is the teaching that we're living in the antitypical Day of Atonement and Christ will soon leave the Most Holy Place to come as King of Kings.

The Sabbath was not an important part of the gospel, nor was it a test, in Martin Luther's time, for instance. The Sabbath IS a test today, though.