tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 In addition to this fact is that a Ram and a Goat are "Day of Atonement" animals. Rams and Goats are in the equation, and mentioned in Leviticus 16. But in Hebrews, only Bulls and Goats are mentioned, and no Rams. In Leviticus 4 in reference to the "daily", no rams are mentioned, but "Bulls" and "Goats" are. But they are also animals associated with cleansing from outside defilement. And that is the situation we have in Daniel 8. Here is an example from the time of Hezekiah. The sanctuary had to be cleansed from defilement. 2Ch 29:3 He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD, and repaired them. 2Ch 29:4 And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street, 2Ch 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place. 2Ch 29:6 For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs. 2Ch 29:7 Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel. 2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron. 2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end. 2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof. 2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD. 2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD. This passage describes the restoration of the temple after a time where it had been abandoned and foreign items were put in it that polluted it, likely idols, since they had turned away from God. It is speaking of restoration from the defilement. It includes the ram and goat as sacrifices, the same animals used in the Daniel 8 vision. In Hezekiah's cleansing the issue was defilement of the sanctuary. It was not the same as the ritual purification of the sanctuary on the day of atonement from the sins of the camp. The type of cleansing done in Hezekiah's case is a closer biblical parallel to what is talked about in Daniel 8. The cleansing is from outside defilement, not the intended cleansing of the sins of all God's people. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 In addition to this fact is that a Ram and a Goat are "Day of Atonement" animals. Rams and Goats are in the equation, and mentioned in Leviticus 16. But in Hebrews, only Bulls and Goats are mentioned, and no Rams. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 And finally.... now that we know that Daniel 8:14 must be Day of Atonement language, based on sound exegetical data, and now that we know that 2300 days can only be years that terminate in 1844, LONG after Christ's ascension, we must therefore need to revamp our way of interpreting the book of Hebrews. Not needed at all. It has been demonstrated that a. the context of Daniel 8 is not the confessed sins of God's people but the activities of the little horn--outside defilement. That was not dealt with by sacrifice but by the death of the offender. b. The starting point for the 2300 days is found in the description of that prophecy in chapter 8. The vision was not incomplete. He was told it was true and to seal it up. Former Seventh-day Adventist
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Bohre's video is a waste of time to watch as I wasted my time with it. To understand one must use the proper rules and I don't see many here using those rules. On of those rules is that a prophecy can be time sensitive, as in the Dan. 9:24 time period. When Jesus was here, that prophecy could have come true as John the Baptist was preaching, but they did not do as they were told to do and now they (Israel) is just another nation of the world. (Matt. 21:43) It seems people here are also making up their own rules and IF they do that, then anything goes. So perhaps all of you should give us the rules you sue to understand prophecy before you tell us what you have discovered.
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 After all, it was the study of Hebrews that AFFIRMED the Pioneer's beliefs in the 1844 Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment. Thus, it is ironic to try and turn the book of Hebrews back on us--the very same verses we use to prove our Sanctuary Doctrine. Former Seventh-day Adventist
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 As for Marcos's posts, he has violated the rules of making your post short and to the point--an do NOT cut and paste stuff that NO ONE WILL READ anyway.
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 As for Marcos's posts, he has violated the rules of making your post short and to the point--an do NOT cut and paste stuff that NO ONE WILL READ anyway. Well I don't like it but I did read it and responded, even to the cut and paste. Don't want to leave folks wondering. Former Seventh-day Adventist
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 John317, the high priest had to go first in the atonement process and this is just what Jesus did--nothing more. The next to have their sins cleansed are the Priests--the rest of the Priest tribe--NOW represented by the 144k who are the first fruits and "Priests" found in Rev. 5:9-10) The next group is the whole kingdom, as a corporate group. These are the 5 wise virgins alse sealed prior to the time of trouble and they are the "Kingdom" in Rev. 5:9-10. The Bride is the group found in Rev. 7:9-15. And that my friends is how the end events will happen and is why it is so hard to understand for those who have been fed food for idols (lies) from EGW. (Rev. 2:18-26) But, they can do it IF I did it!
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Jesus did not misguide William Miller either. He told William Miller that at the end of the 2300 years, He would "cleanse" the sanctuary". Yet William Miller did not get what Jesus said in His writings in the book of Daniel. Now Lysimachus, you know that is not true. Or you should. Notice these quotes from Early Writings. I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ellen White does not say that Miller just got it wrong. On the contrary, she says God was in the proclamation of time in 1843. And she says more than that: I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. It was not Miller's fault. God DESIGNED to prove them. HIS hand covered a mistake. GOD DESIGNED THAT THEY MEET WITH disappointment. Why are you blaming Miller? I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. God DIRECTED the chart for 1843. The figures were as He wanted them. Why are you blaming Miller? Ellen White says God was in his false, time setting message of Jesus coming in 1843. Notice, 1843, not 1844. 1843. Wrong message. Wrong time. Just plain old wrong. Now, are you still saying God didn't give Miller a false message? Ellen White says He did. However, I agree with you. God did not give him a message that contradicted His own Son's words, that He would come at at time they knew not. Miller just came up with it. But that is not what Ellen White says. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 But Jesus didn't misguide Miller. Just like He didn't misguide the disciples. Yet Miller misunderstood some things, yet God still worked through Miller just like He still worked through the disciples. False, Jesus did inform His disciples on multiple occasions that He would die. Now, if you say John the Baptist was working just on partial knowledge, perhaps. But that is not at all the same as Miller according to Ellen White. God was in the proclamation of time in 1843 according to Ellen White. That is a false message. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 The message was, "The hour of His judgment has come". That was the correct message. Despite the nature of that judgment being wrong. William Miller was lead by God. The Judgment hour message was lead by God. Sorry, Miller's message is well documented. It is a lot more specific than that. Notice the title of his book: Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ about the Year 1843 That was his message. I can post samples of his proofs if you like. They all were designed to prove that Jesus was coming around 1843. Moreover, it was 1843. That is not even the right date according to Adventists. Miller's message was wrong. Wong time, wrong event, wrong everything. It was a time-setting un-biblical message. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: tall73 Those who were against Miller's false date-setting message? What about Miller who was confronted with the Scriptures again and again and persisted in date-setting? Doesnt' mean that there wasn't a specific day and hour that they were to know when Christ would enter the Most Holy Place. The day and hour of Christ's arrival was foretold in the 70 weeks, and one could even know when Christ would be crucified and go to heaven, yet they did not understand it. God allowed Miller to misunderstand the nature of this date, despite the fact he was partially mistaken. In fact, Miller hesitated on date setting. He set a year and a month, not a day and an hour. Snow brought in the day and the hour, and he grudgingly accepted it. So don't blame Miller too much. Friend, you should not be blaming Miller at all! It was not a mistake. The figures for 1843 were just as God wanted them according to Ellen White. Now Miller was not preaching about when Jesus would enter the Most Holy Place. That was not his message. His message was a false date setting message about when Jesus would come. And Ellen White says God gave it to him. The message that the people of that time rejected was the date setting of Jesus coming, which Jesus Himself said not to do. These are published facts. You can read Miller's message. And you can read the message of his opponents. Ellen White says they were condemned for going by Jesus' words which were against Miller's time setting. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Also, if you read carefully, the Bible never says that "never will the day and the hour be revealed". Jesus said no man "knoweth" (present). Particularly, however, the "day and the hour" that no man knoweth is more specifically referring to the close of probation. Sorry, even your own prophet doesn't agree with you. She references this text as saying we should not date set. Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1} Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these last days into disrepute. Testimonies vol 4, pg 307 Moreover, Jesus added the following: Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. He says the Son of Man comes at an hour you know not. This has no application other than to those who are at that time. They won't know and He comes at a time they think not. The reason the saints are not taken off guard is not because they know but because they are awake and ready, just as in I Thess. And there it says they don't need to be written to about dates, because the coming of the Lord will be like a thief. They will be ready. But they won't know when. So they are always ready. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 So you are suggesting we have been living in the Day of Judgment since 31 A.D. and not 1844? I am stating that Hebrews pictures elements of the Day of Atonement as completed in the first century. You already agree that the sacrifice for the Day of Atonement happened in the first century. That does not match the type, but it was once for all, and is truly completed then. Moreover, yes, in the type all the people in the camp, all the Israelites went through this rite and had the opportunity to accept the work done for them. It was not just those from 1844 on that have that opportunity. Right at the beginning of the Christian era the cleansing application of blood was made and people can accept it. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 That hardly makes sense, as Christ just bypassed the Holy Place ministration. Not bypassed. Fulfilled. Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God Jesus did not need ongoing daily sacrifices. They were once for all. We do still come to the throne of grace to receive individually what He has done for us in real time. But the blood work is done. The death was once for all and fulfilled all the sacrifices. The blood work in the sanctuary was once for all and fulfilled all the cleansing blood work. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 What about Revelation 14 which puts the judgment in the future? John wrote this after 31 A.D. What about the fact that there are 2 more angels after the first angel that pronounces Judgment? What about the fact that judgment comes before the Second Advent, and that there are many occurrences in Revelation 13 after the judgment is announced? The Day of Atonement has nothing to do with the judgment hour in Revelation 14? there are so many missing pieces to your assertions, it is baffling. In fact, you seem to be able to only rely on Leviticus and Hebrews alone for your assertions. But you ignore Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, Malachi, and many other books necessary to come to an accurate conclusion of the future pre-Advent judgment from the time the Bible authors wrote. Indeed not. Adventists have changed the type. The cleansing that happened in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was not an investigation. The priest did not examine the blood. He made a cleansing application of blood for atonement for all the sins of the people. It was not judgment but provision for all sin by blood. That is PRECISELY what Jesus did in the fulfillment. Adventist by reading in books and judgment to what happened with the priest inside the sanctuary have confused the type. The type is not books but blood. In the type the priest killed the sacrifice, went into God's presence and ministered the blood for provision for all the sins of the camp. In Hebrews Jesus did the same. Outside the sanctuary folks either accepted the provision for themselves or not. That is what we see in the reality as well. But the cleansing in the sanctuary was made either way. And it was atoning blood, not investigation. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 No doubt Christ's sacrifice provided a corporate purification for sins, for all men. The nature of the judgment, however, is definitely on a greater, more intense level. And it can only precede the Second Advent. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Hmm... I'm just not seeing it how you're seeing it. I have a hard time seeing how you can see these texts as "proof positive" against the IJ. If these texts existed alone without Daniel, Ezekiel, Malachi, and Revelation, I'm sure one could conclude that from the texts that atonement all finished at the cross. But we have a lot more to chew on than just Hebrews. We cannot base our doctrine on the sanctuary and the judgment just off of Hebrews and Leviticus alone. You are not seeing it because you changed the type. The cleansing that happened in the sanctuary was atoning application of blood, not investigation. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 In a corporate sense, Christ has provided purification for "all men", no doubt, as stated in a number of texts. But we find evidence of this in Leviticus 4 as well, which is not the Day of Atonement. We find corporate work even in the Daily Services: Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which should not be done, and are guilty; 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation. 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD. 4:16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation: 4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger [in some] of the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the LORD, [even] before the veil. 4:18 And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Truly, do we not see a corporate work of purification going on here? In light of this, I do not see how Hebrews destroys 1844. We see a provision here for ONE sin that involved the whole camp. That is not the same as a provision for all sins of the whole camp. That was the Day of Atonement. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: tall73 ...Hebrews 1:3 Why did it say He past tense provided purification for sins. It means something. What does it mean? The shedding of Christ blood as the divine sacrifice provided purification of sins. That sacrifice need never be made again. It is all sufficient to save every human who's ever lived. I would disagree only on one point. The provision involved not just the death of the animal but the ministering of the blood. The text indicates that by the time Jesus sat down purification was made. That includes blood work. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: tall73 ...Hebrews 1:3 Why did it say He past tense provided purification for sins. It means something. What does it mean? The shedding of Christ blood as the divine sacrifice provided purification of sins. That sacrifice need never be made again. It is all sufficient to save every human who's ever lived. This is not the same as purifying the sanctuary or the books of record. Actually purification for all sins of the camp is what happened in the cleansing service in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. It was a cleansing application of blood for the people and the building. Now the books of record, no it is not a fulfillment of that. And the portion of the type that dealt with the cleansing blood in the sanctuary didn't have books of record. It had atoning blood provided for all. Judgment comes later. Former Seventh-day Adventist
tall73 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Notice that 1 John 1: 9 describes Christ's cleansing of people's sins as in the future: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It is therefore obvious that all sins have not been cleansed. Rather, Hebrews 1: 3 is telling us that Christ's sacrifice provided the means for the cleansing of all our sins. I did notice, and posted this very text to demonstrate the same thing in this thread a bit above your post. However, note again what you just said. The application to individuals is future. We agree completely. We come in real time to the throne of grace to receive what Christ has already done for us. However, the type in the sanctuary of the cleansing was the application of atoning blood for all the camp. It was the corporate provision. It was what was fulfilled already in the first century. The problem is you are confusing that with books. The priest did not investigate anything IN the sanctuary. He applied blood for atonement. Now the people then accepted his work for them or not. But either way the provision was made. Now the people who didn't participate being cut off? That happened outside the sanctuary later. But what happened in the sanctuary was corporate provision by blood. And that is exactly what Hebrews describes Jesus as doing in the first century. Former Seventh-day Adventist
Lysimachus Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Friend, you should not be blaming Miller at all! It was not a mistake. The figures for 1843 were just as God wanted them according to Ellen White. Now Miller was not preaching about when Jesus would enter the Most Holy Place. That was not his message. His message was a false date setting message about when Jesus would come. And Ellen White says God gave it to him. The message that the people of that time rejected was the date setting of Jesus coming, which Jesus Himself said not to do. These are published facts. You can read Miller's message. And you can read the message of his opponents. Ellen White says they were condemned for going by Jesus' words which were against Miller's time setting. Nah, let's try not to keep arguing this point tall73. You're trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip, and I'm sorry it ain't workin. In Numerous statements, Ellen White acknowledges Miller's misunderstanding and error. Yet, what she said on the 1843 chart is a different ball of wax. Don't get the two confused, and you'll be much safer. The reason why the "figures" were just as God wanted them was because 1843 was the termination of the 1335 year prophecy, where a blessing would be pronounced upon those who made it through the experience, from 1843-1844. She did not say "what was stated about those figures were just as God wanted them". She said the FIGURES! The arguments you have espoused appear to me as warped conceptions of how God works in his dealings with man-kind. Being an Ex-Seventh-Day Adventist minister is not going to save you, because it is apparent you know very little about the Investigative Judgment. You like to quote texts, but you distort them out of the the overall Biblical picture. Notice how A.T. Jones is capable of making sweeping epoch statements concerning the spiritual applications of principles embedded throughout the scriptures. You just quote and quote and quote, and have very little commentary to them. Believing, that somehow, the statements you are quoting support your outlandish views. They don't. The Hebrews texts you keep quoting support one thing and one thing only. That there is a heavenly sanctuary where Christ our High Priest ministers on our behalf. It does not support eschatological and chronological timings of the judgment hour, as depicted in Daniel 7, 8, 11, 12, and Revelation 2, 3, 13, 14, 16, 17, and 22. That is not the focus of Hebrews. As much as you want to get hung up on a "past purification", it's not going to work. Even A.T. Jones and Waggoner clearly recognized and understood a corporate cleansing, and legal justification for all men on the cross. But somehow you want to confuse the 2300 evening-mornings and the judgment in the sanctuary and Antitypical Day of Atonement as the same event. Too much evidence has revealed, now more than ever before, that corporate cleansing, corporate purification, and "Day of Atonement" language was alluded to throughout the Daily Ministrations. It's really not "Day of Atonement" language, however. It may appear that way simply because people read certain expressions and phrases concerning ritual events that are CONNECTED with the Day of Atonement, but are in reality not necessarily unique characteristics of the Day of Atonement. It is "judgment" and "vindication", a final preparation that Revelation 14 places in the FUTURE as the "judgment hour" that is Day of Atonement language. When one has trained their mind to read subterfuge into texts, oh how they will do it. But it is a deception from Satan. A simple reading of the Word tells you that 70 weeks = to 490 years. Common sense makes you recognize the day-year principle inherent in this. I've written much on this, and we could go on and on about the day-year principle if we wanted to. In a nutshell, Daniel 8 is encompassing empires through beasts. A plain reading, without any predilections and predispositions whatsoever will lead the honest reader, who compares scripture with scripture, see that 2300 days = 2300 years. To believe that God would wish for Daniel to be concerned over a measely few 2300 days of some puny Antiochus Epiphanies is beyond reason, and makes light of God's all-encompassing-world message concerning human-kind in Daniel 8, and neglecting the rest of history. Without the day-year principle, God looks like a puny God who can't foretell the long-drawn out centuries. Tall73, you need to come back home. You have strayed from your pen, and it's time to come home and get on the path of truth and righteousness. To abandon these messages that the Lord has established is to apostatize. The light will eventually go out on the path, until one falls down into the dark and wicked world below. You will be a much happier and freer person once you go back to presenting those good ol' Adventist truths you once used to. I know one thing for sure.... Without the Adventist doctrines, I would be an atheist right now. I had very little interest in spiritual things. It was the profound impact of Adventist eschatology and their sanctuary message that COMPELLED me to believe in the God of heaven. It is what makes Jesus real to me. Otherwise, I might as well become an atheist, as Christianity would make no sense whatsoever without Adventism and it's beautiful Sanctuary Message. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Now we turn to your quite lengthy cut and paste job. For the record, I took out 3 hours of my time typing that whole thing. It is not online. I typed it out directly from the notes, and paid considerable attention to grammar, spelling, and formatting. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus In addition to this fact is that a Ram and a Goat are "Day of Atonement" animals. Rams and Goats are in the equation, and mentioned in Leviticus 16. But in Hebrews, only Bulls and Goats are mentioned, and no Rams. In Leviticus 4 in reference to the "daily", no rams are mentioned, but "Bulls" and "Goats" are. But they are also animals associated with cleansing from outside defilement. And that is the situation we have in Daniel 8. Here is an example from the time of Hezekiah. The sanctuary had to be cleansed from defilement. 2Ch 29:3 He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD, and repaired them. 2Ch 29:4 And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street, 2Ch 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place. 2Ch 29:6 For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs. 2Ch 29:7 Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel. 2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron. 2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end. 2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof. 2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD. 2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD. This passage describes the restoration of the temple after a time where it had been abandoned and foreign items were put in it that polluted it, likely idols, since they had turned away from God. It is speaking of restoration from the defilement. It includes the ram and goat as sacrifices, the same animals used in the Daniel 8 vision. In Hezekiah's cleansing the issue was defilement of the sanctuary. It was not the same as the ritual purification of the sanctuary on the day of atonement from the sins of the camp. The type of cleansing done in Hezekiah's case is a closer biblical parallel to what is talked about in Daniel 8. The cleansing is from outside defilement, not the intended cleansing of the sins of all God's people. This was an exception. But it does not prove your point. The Day of Atonement language is clearly taught in Daniel 8. Unequivocally. It's talking in connection with the "daily" ministration, and in connection with "judgment" paralleling Daniel 7. Jewish scribes have connected the DoA with a day of "judgment". The context of the sanctuary with Hezekiah is not in alignment with the "judgment" in relation to the Little Horn. Notice also that ALL those animals were brought. But on the Day of Atonement, all those animals were not brought. The 1 goat and the 1 ram is in far closer resemblance to the Day of Atonement language than in 2 Chronicles where it mentions "seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats". Nice try, but it does not vindicate your case. Too much subterfuge to get around the plain realization that the 2300 evening-mornings encompasses a broad time period. Also, the focus is on "the time of the end". ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
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