Sanctuary

[Lysimachus]

GE:

Revelation 14 is very clear about a future judgment. This judgment ACCOMPANIES the Second Coming and RESURRECTION of the dead ... of ALL, the dead. There's no way out of it for anyone.

Revelation

14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Without question, this judgment commences prior to the second angel, which tells us that Babylon has fallen. This is in alignment with the fourth angel in Revelation 18 that tells us to "come out of Babylon". Since 1844, the message has been to come out of Babylon, and this message will continue to grow until we separate ourselves from ALL that has become part of Babylon. All false doctrines must be given up, including that we are not living in the time of judgment since 1844.

The judgment, unequivocally, comes before the Mark of the Beast is enforced in the message of the third angel, and then finally in verse 14 we see the Son of Man coming on a white cloud to reap the harvest of the earth.

There is no way you can interpret this judgment as a "simultaneous" event with the Second Coming. The judgment that occurs at the Second Advent is an "executive" judgment, not an evaluative/judicial, or investigative judgment. This is bringing the "reward" at the end of the judgment.

When you are in a court of law, and your case is being investigated, this is a form of "judgment". But, if you have been sentenced to death, and you are taken to the executioners chair, this is the "executive judgment". In other words, the verdict of that investigative judgment is being carried out.

We are not into the Dispensational-Futurist "snap judgment" anomaly .

Why is there an investigation of the saints? John Anderson makes a convincing case from Scripture that, "[God] will conduct a divine inquiry into each case, not because He does not know the just reward of every person, but to inspire in the hearts of those who are not omniscient, as He is, that He operates from a position of knowledge and fairness." (John T. Anderson, Investigating the Judgment, p. 65)

[Lysimachus]

SD:

And what will be the use of it by then? Worthless imagination!

In any case, who wouldn't know it already?

So you are saying then that the Bible is worthless imagination?

I cannot help if you cannot make sense out of it.

It's what the Bible says.

When scriptures say, "And all the churches shall know that I am He who investigates [ereunao] minds and hearts. And will give to each one of you according to your works." (Rev. 2:23), it means only what it says.

The Greek word that is used for "searches" has a meaning of "thorough investigation" according to some of the best Greek dictionaries.

The point is to instill the seriousness of the time we are living. That God's all-powerful and scrutinizing eye is watching every secret sin you are committing, and recording it. And if we don't make up our mind to be overcomers, and have a clean and pure heart, through the power of God, they will come up in the judgment and be held against us.

[Dr. Rich]

We need the IJ preached. It is a central part of the Three Angels' Messages. Without 1844 and the IJ, the SDA church wouldn't even exist; and without it, we might as well join the other churches. The Sabbath is not even essential unless the IJ doctrine is right.

I think that's pure nonsense John317. I and many others like me keep the Sabbath but know that the IJ is a lie. For people to keep preaching a lie about the IJ, (among other things) it shows that they are intentionally violating the ten commandments. This is about the same as when the Jews made it a law you could not walk further than an amount decreed by them, or you would be breaking the sabbath law. There is NO difference with this at all. We have been hashing this out for several months and none of you (no one) has ever proven by GOOD evidence that the IJ was the truth. Therefore, it's time to give it up and go with what is written in Rev. 11!

John317, I am tired of reading stuff that can't be proved from the bible and I know a lot of other people probably feel the same way.

[Dr. Rich]

That's right. Revelation 14 is predicting that there will come a time prior to Christ's return when three messages will proclaimed to the whole world, one of which will be that the judgment of God IS COME. It won't be a message that the judgment WILL COME or CAME BEFORE. The message is "the judgment IS ALREADY COME NOW."

The word you used John317, "predicting" shows to me that you do not believe any of the God's true prophecies--because NONE of them are "predictions"! God KNOWS what is or is not going to happen and does NOT need to predict anything!

What you are not reading is that this is the HOUR of His Judgment. Not 170 years! How stupid is that? Those three (angels--not men) messages are not yet to even be given yet! Adventists have jumped the gun and have lied trying to cover up their error. This is really sad!

[Dr. Rich]

Wow, powerful verse Daniel 7:13. That opens up a whole new view, for me, of the inaugeration of the Sanctuary after the ascension and the impact of 1844. Good stuff on this thread if you can cut through the clutter and trash to find it. Like digging for hidden treasure.

Dan. 7:13 is when the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of God--and this has not happened yet and will not happen until the very last trumpet (7) blows.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Resurrection of ALL the wicked dead does not take place at the second coming. That occurs at the third return to planet earth a 1,000 years later.

SD:

By then even that V12 of yours will be scrap.

Here is the thing: there is a 'judgment' for those sealed prior to the time of trouble where the 5 foolish are forever toast. This judgment is found in Rev. 11:1.

Then there is the judgment for those in the rest of the world and that Judgment can be found in Rev. 11:2.

Then there is the judgment for all of those wicked who were already dead, and that happens at the third return, a thousand years later.

There is no such thing as any 'investigative' judgment because God already knows and does not need to investigate anything. How stupid to even believe that God must investigate people for over 170 years to know the truth???? Let's get real people!

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

We need the IJ preached. It is a central part of the Three Angels' Messages. Without 1844 and the IJ, the SDA church wouldn't even exist; and without it, we might as well join the other churches. The Sabbath is not even essential unless the IJ doctrine is right.

I think that's pure nonsense John317. I and many others like me keep the Sabbath but know that the IJ is a lie. For people to keep preaching a lie about the IJ, (among other things) it shows that they are intentionally violating the ten commandments. This is about the same as when the Jews made it a law you could not walk further than an amount decreed by them, or you would be breaking the sabbath law. There is NO difference with this at all. We have been hashing this out for several months and none of you (no one) has ever proven by GOOD evidence that the IJ was the truth. Therefore, it's time to give it up and go with what is written in Rev. 11!

John317, I am tired of reading stuff that can't be proved from the bible and I know a lot of other people probably feel the same way.

#1. The Day of Atonement is intrinsically tied to the Most Holy Place.

#2. The Most Holy Place is intrinsically tied to the Ark of the Covenant.

#3. The Ark of the Covenant is intrinsically tied to the Ten Commandments.

#4. Of the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath particularly was the one trampled upon by the Little Horn.

#5. While the Sabbath was already known and kept by faithful saints sacttered throughout the Dark Ages, and even regarded by the Seventh-Day Baptists, the Sabbath message was "scarce" and hardly made an impact on the world.

#6. Beginning immediately after 1844, and after the light of the Investigative Judgment was understood, and God's faithful few who made it through the disappointment entered by faith following Christ into the Most Holy Place, the glorious truths of the Sabbath revealed its rays to the Advent believers. After Joseph Bates and a number of others began to see the light of the Sabbath message, and after Ellen White and her husband accepted it also, Ellen White was shown a vision in which the 4th commandment shined brighter than all the rest in this time of "judgment".

#7. We are called to be "repairers of the breach". A breach in what? The law! And more particularly, what law? According to Isaiah 58, the Sabbath! But how can one repair the breach in the law until we enter the Holy of Holies to see what it is? This is precisely why the light shown so bright concerning the Sabbath on those faithful Adventist believers, and why they were able to proclaim it so powerfully to the world.

#9. The "hour of judgment" is to be proclaimed with a message that originates in the 4th commandment: "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

#8. Whenever the mention of "the Sabbath" comes into play, the first thing that comes to mind is "oh! Seventh-Day Adventists!". Seventh-Day Adventists are recognized for being the progenitors of carrying the Sabbath truth around the world. The Seventh-Day Baptists didn't even come close to this.

A large portion of the Sabbath's significance is lost without the judgment hour message that was proclaimed in 1844.

[Dr. Rich]

LOL Marcos! Now go read what Jesus said to do in Matthew 28:20. Just WHO was it that told you all of the things you wrote about--anyway? It sure was not Jesus!

Don't you suppose you are ursuping Jesus when you wrote what you did? You don't even know what the word "intrinsic" means.

The Atonement process given to Israel was a 'coloring book' picture of just how the end would take place. First would be the High Priest to have His sins cleansed--this represented Jesus as He said that He became sanctified so that we ALSO MAY become sanctified. (Jn. 17)

Next were the Priests (read about the priests in Rev. 5:9-10) and these will be the 144,000 who become sancified PRIOR to the time of trouble.

Next were the corporate Kingdom represented now by the SDA Church as being the KOH now as found in Matthew 25:1-13. (Even EGW and James White believed in this) This too happens before the time of trouble but after the 144k are sealed, as they must be 'judged' first where the 5 wise become sanctified and the 5 foolish Adventists (virgins) are forever lost PRIOR to the time of trouble.

Notice that these are judged first as being righeous--this is the judgment found in Rev. 11:1

Next is the bride from those all over the earth (the goat was sent out to represent this group from the wilderness) They can be found in Rev. 7:9-15. They are 'judged' during the time of trouble and their judgment can be found in Rev. 11:2.

There is also a judgment after the 1000 year period. And this is what the bible says about all of the judgments--notice that there is NO investigative Judgment found anyplace!

[Lysimachus]

LOL Marcos! Now go read what Jesus said to do in Matthew 28:20. Just WHO was it that told you all of the things you wrote about--anyway? It sure was not Jesus!

Don't you suppose you are ursuping Jesus when you wrote what you did? You don't even know what the word "intrinsic" means.

The Atonement process given to Israel was a 'coloring book' picture of just how the end would take place. First would be the High Priest to have His sins cleansed--this represented Jesus as He said that He became sanctified so that we ALSO MAY become sanctified. (Jn. 17)

Next were the Priests (read about the priests in Rev. 5:9-10) and these will be the 144,000 who become sancified PRIOR to the time of trouble.

Next were the corporate Kingdom represented now by the SDA Church as being the KOH now as found in Matthew 25:1-13. (Even EGW and James White believed in this) This too happens before the time of trouble but after the 144k are sealed, as they must be 'judged' first where the 5 wise become sanctified and the 5 foolish Adventists (virgins) are forever lost PRIOR to the time of trouble.

Notice that these are judged first as being righeous--this is the judgment found in Rev. 11:1

Next is the bride from those all over the earth (the goat was sent out to represent this group from the wilderness) They can be found in Rev. 7:9-15. They are 'judged' during the time of trouble and their judgment can be found in Rev. 11:2.

There is also a judgment after the 1000 year period. And this is what the bible says about all of the judgments--notice that there is NO investigative Judgment found anyplace!

I'm sorry, Dr. Rich, but I do not see how anything you said above disproves or negates my points. What does this have to do with the Sabbath?

I cannot help if the 2300 days terminates in 1844. I cannot help that the 2300 days represent years, based on solid exegesis. I cannot help if at the end of those 2300 days, there is a "vindication/restoration/cleansing" of the sanctuary which is analogous to a judgment and the Day of Atonement.

No doubt there have been many phases of judgments. But do not get hung up on the word "investigate". It's in the Greek. A judgment of God's people, no doubt, is tied to investigating or searching them.

Not that there was no investigation of God's saints prior to this, but on the Day of Atonement, the level of heart-searching was raised up several notches. Intense heart-searching took place, as probation was soon to close, and those who had failed to confess and forsake all their sins were cut off from the congregation.

This is the message of true Adventism, and it is to be taken to the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, do you believe that the "10 Virgins" found in Matt. 25:1-13, today are represented by the SDAs? Please explain your answer.

[phkrause]

I don't find in Daniel 7 that it "... says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days".

Daniel 7:13 "I kept watching the night visions, when I saw, coming with the clouds of heaven, someone like a son of man. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence.

There you go, not sure how you can miss that. Also to really get good context please read the verses before and after.

[Lysimachus]

That is a good translation. which translation is that pkrause?

[Daryl]

Looks clear to me too!!!!

Originally Posted By: Seventh Day

I don't find in Daniel 7 that it "... says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days".

Daniel 7:13 "I kept watching the night visions, when I saw, coming with the clouds of heaven, someone like a son of man. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence.

There you go, not sure how you can miss that. Also to really get good context please read the verses before and after.

[phkrause]

That's from the Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern.

[ClubV12]

So,,,, WHERE is the Fathers THRONE and was it MOVED at some point in time?

It seems as if at some point it was in the Holy Place, by the candlestick.

In other places it seems it is in the Most Holy Place.

In Daniel 7:13, when Jesus was led to the Father, His throne, where was it?

Please, if your views on the placement of the throne are not in harmony with the predominant Seventh-day Adventist position, I'm really not interested in your speculation. Sorry, just a reality check.

[tall73]

Those who have had great light, rejected it and now come claiming new light are wolves in sheep clothing.

Great light such as those pastors who rightly rebuked Miller for date setting were lost? But Ellen and William who went against Jesus words were right?

Yes, I rejected that "light" alright.

Your fulfillment of the first angel's message was a false message. Jesus did not come to earth in 1843, or 1844, and that was the message delivered.

[tall73]

Their are certain pillars of Adventism that must not, cannot ever be moved. The sanctuary and the investigative judgments are such, this is in essence the first angels message. If any Adventist rejects these fundamenatl truths, tears them down, attempts to replace them with "new truth", he is a false teacher.

The "first angel's message" you promote in the message of the Millerites was not "truth" to begin with.

Anyone with a calendar knows Jesus did not come to earth in 1843.

[tall73]

The Sabbath and the Investigative Judgment are inseparable concepts. Without the Investigative Judgment, the Sabbath loses much of its significance and glory for these last days.

It is consistent for former SDA's to give up the Sabbath along with the IJ.

I have former Adventist friends who accept the Sabbath but not the IJ.

The reason is simple. There is far more Scripture evidence that could show continued Sabbath observance than there ever was for the Adventist IJ.

[tall73]

But Miller's message was not a false, date-setting message that contradicted the words of Jesus.

Let's see

Miller's message was that Jesus would come to earth around 1843

Was it false? Yes, Jesus did not come to earth in 1843.

Was it date setting? Yes, it predicted Jesus would come around 1843.

Did it contradict Jesus? Yes, He said He would come at a time you think not.

Sorry, it was still a false, date-setting message that contradicted the words of Jesus.

[Dr. Rich]

Tall73, Miller and group were studying TIME because that is exactly what prophecy is all about my friend. Jesus told us to BE READY, yet how can on truely be ready without knowing the time for the event?

Would you always be ready if I told you that I was going to pick you up to go fishing and camping IF you didn't know when or where we were going to go and for how long? Nope, same for Jesus. He now knows exactly when He is going to come (REv. 1:1) and has made this known to His bondservants. Others will scoff because they are not the bondservants and are probably among the wicked who think they know everything and do NOT want to be bothered because they simply believe they are saved by grace, so why worry?

Jesus gave us a template, a calander so to speak, to figure it out. But you can't do this without special insight. (Dan. 12:3)

[tall73]

Miller had every right to interpret these words according to his understanding. Jesus did not say that no one would "ever" know the day or the hour of His return. He said no man "knoweth" (present). Also, the pioneers put much exegesis into dealing with these passages, and show how they interpret these messages from Jesus. They had every right to put forth their understanding of these passages.

No, Jesus did not just speak about that time, but about the time when He would come.

They still would not know:

Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Mat 24:47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

Mat 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,'

Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,

Mat 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Moreover, you didn't address the fact that you contradicte Ellen White also because she applied the day or hour text to date setting by Adventists after 1844, and condemned it.

[tall73]

Miller had every right to interpret these words according to his understanding. .

Why do you keep blaming Miller? Ellen White said God designed it, not Miller.

And Miller's understanding was wrong, and date-setting and unbiblical, and went against the words of Jesus.

[tall73]

You say that you go by the Bible, and not anyone's experience.

Actually what I said is that Ellen White did NOT go by the Bible when she plainly says anything that contradicts the pillars, even arguments from the Scriptures, should not be entertained because of the EXPERIENCE of the pioneers.

That is her saying she goes by experience and will not entertain anything to the contrary.

You will not find me saying I will not entertain Scriptural arguments against my current views on the Bible.

In fact, I changed a lot of my views on the Scriptures because of evidence. And I will again if compelling evidence is presented.

If you say you will ignore every Scriptural argument against x,y and z doctrines because of the experience of Ellen White, then you are in fact putting experience over the Bible.

[tall73]

Why do you think Adventists accept the Spirit of Prophecy?

Because with out someone like Ellen White, God's people will NEVER come into unity. So to reject her, is to reject unity, and forever be at discord with everyone.

Kind of like your own pope huh? But you don't like the pope.

Why do you like Ellen White but not the pope? If it is unity you are after the pope has a lot more on his side.

Do you really want to say that the Bible cannot be understood without Ellen White?

Those poor folks for 1800 years who didn't have her. Guess they were stuck.

[tall73]

William Miller did not get the date wrong.