Sanctuary

[tall73]

The part of the type that involved the cleansing in the sanctuary was a cleansing application of blood for atonement for the sins of the camp.

It was not an investigation. The high priest did not investigate the blood. He applied blood to make corporate atonement.

People's response to that determined whether it helped them personally, but that was the type.

Adventists' investigation of the books is not what happened in the sanctuary in the cleansing portion of the service.

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Jesus made just such a corporate blood atonement for all sins in the first century:

Heb 1:3b After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

People outside the sanctuary then accept it or not.

Notice, I did not say there is no judgment. I believe there is. Nor did I say that the judgment happened in the first century. Nor did I say there are no books.

What I said was that the type of cleansing on the DOA was an atoning application of blood for the sins of the whole camp.

[tall73]

I think you are referring to those folks in 1844 that rejected the sanctuary message. For those folks, the door was shut, their probation ended, they, like the people in Noahs time, were forever lost. They continued to live their lives, go on about their business, knowing not that they were lost (until the rain came and the realized it was to late).

There was no message about the IJ during the Millerite movement. They didn't work out the IJ until later.

There was a false message that stated that around the time 1843, and then later 1844, and then later Oct 22, 1844 Jesus was coming. That message was un-biblical date setting and they were quite right to reject it.

Had Ellen White and Miller listened to them they need not have been disappointed.

[Guest]

There was no message about the IJ during the Millerite movement. They didn't work out the IJ until later.

Where did he say anything about the Millerite movement? He is talking about later, when the light on the sanctuary/IJ was revealed.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

There was no message about the IJ during the Millerite movement. They didn't work out the IJ until later.

Where did he say anything about the Millerite movement? He is talking about later, when the light on the sanctuary/IJ was revealed.

The comment was regarding the shut door.

Perhaps you are not familiar with Ellen White's clarification comment on this.

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position. {1SM 63.1}

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents. {1SM 63.2}

There was a shut door in Noah’s day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah: {1SM 63.3}

“My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). {1SM 63.4}

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven. {1SM 63.5}

There was a shut door in Christ’s day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38). {1SM 63.6}

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John: {1SM 63.7}

“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7). {1SM 63.8}

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels’ messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them. {1SM 63.9}

She is talking about those who rejected the Millerite message. She consistently speaks in Early Writings, etc. of the first angels message being Miller's message.

However, Miller's message was not correct. It was a message that said Jesus would come at a certain time, and it was incorrect.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

There was no message about the IJ during the Millerite movement. They didn't work out the IJ until later.

Where did he say anything about the Millerite movement? He is talking about later, when the light on the sanctuary/IJ was revealed.

The IJ was not revealed until some time after 1844.

Hiram Edson's view of Jesus entering the Most Holy Place took place early on, but not the IJ understanding.

And even Hiram's views were not published widely until Crosier published in 1845 an article and then later the Day Star Extra that laid out the view in more detail.

However, the first angel's message being discussed was the Millerite proclamation which she saw as a heavenly message, but was in fact a false date-setting message.

[ClubV12]

"I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels’ messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven..."

THAT is exactly the referrence I was referring to as it concerns the shut door.

The confusion here is that there is also a shut door in the sanctuary. When Jesus left the Holy Place and entered the Most Holy Place, He shut the door and no man can open it.

Are they essentially the same door? Not exactly, but you could say that.

Ellen White received a vision in December 1844 which dealt with the Holy and Most Holy Place and what that event meant. This is the very foundation of the investigative judgment.

Those who rejected the first and second angels message "AFTERWARD renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them."

The message they rejected was, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come..." This to is fundamental to the sanctuary and investigative judgment doctrine. They are one and the same.

It is the same message many on this website also reject. That reject the concept of JUDGMENT taking place right now, the hour of His judgment is HERE, NOW, TODAY, on-going.

[Lysimachus]

The IJ was not revealed until some time after 1844.

Hiram Edson's view of Jesus entering the Most Holy Place took place early on, but not the IJ understanding.

And even Hiram's views were not published widely until Crosier published in 1845 an article and then later the Day Star Extra that laid out the view in more detail.

However, the first angel's message being discussed was the Millerite proclamation which she saw as a heavenly message, but was in fact a false date-setting message.

Just because the IJ may not have been understood until 1845 does not mean that it did not start in 1844.

Keep in mind that in Volume 4, of Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, you will read a number accounts of expositors who, did not believe Jesus was coming in the 1840s, yet believed that the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminated in the 1840s (particularly, 1843/44/47 -- depending on the information they were using to find the starting date). So what did some of these men believe?

A number of them actually believed that the cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 1840s would be experienced by a revival, and reformation back to Apostolic times, in readiness to meet their Saviour!

Hence, some of these men, in this respect, were more correct than even William Miller! A man they did not even know!

God was with Miller as far as bringing impetus to the movement, and to test people. It was the greatest revival man has ever seen, since apostolic times. Little children, even 5 years old, in Europe, got up on benches preaches "the hour of His judgment is come", and then when they were done, would go back to playing again. J.N. Loughborough documents how some of these young children testified in their later years that they remember a supernatural power take over them and gave them utterance.

Without question, this was a world-wide movement lead by God. It is just so sad tall73 that you cannot see this, and that you have now dedicated your life to destroy this doctrine. I do believe one day you may regret all this time you have invested in trying to tear down this doctrine. You may find that you were wrong in the end.

[wayfinder]

Exodus 35:12 the ark and its poles, the mercy seat, and the curtain of the screen;

Hebrews 9:3 NAS

Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,

Door? Where is the door?

[Lysimachus]

However, Miller's message was not correct. It was a message that said Jesus would come at a certain time, and it was incorrect.

The timing was not incorrect, but the event was. It revealed where people's hearts were at. God allowed it for a reason, despite one unable to make sense of it. That's where faith comes in. We need to just accept it.

It was a correct message.

If their hearts were right, they would not have turned into people who were mocking, scoffing, and ridiculing, nor would they have made fun of Miller and his associates. It showed that they never truly wanted Jesus to come.

The disappointment helped to show who was who, and who really had been transformed in their hearts. It revealed where they were at.

Those who turned against it, and rejected it, the door was shut for them. They cannot be saved. They will be lost forever. Why? Because the fact that not one changed is proof of this fact. Everyone who rejected 1844 turned into people who attacked and derided Miller and the Millerite movement vehemently. Not one confessed and said they were sorry for doing this.

It was the unpardonable sin.

Why?

Because they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit as being the work of Satan. And for this they will pay.

John the Baptist preached that Jesus was going to come and be the deliverer of Israel. He thought that Jesus was going to deliver them from the Romans.

You need to watch Pastor Bohr's video: "Disappointment in the Sanctuary".

It's excellent!

Does this mean that John the Baptist was preaching a "false" message?

Absolutely not. Jesus allowed HUNDREDS of thousands of people to believe that He was going to establish the throne of David in literal Jerusalem by riding on a Colt. Was Jesus misleading them? After all, this was the tradition of what a king would do in ancient Israel. Ride on a colt as a procession.

Jesus did not correct any of them by saying "Folks! You got it all wrong! I'm not going to set myself on the throne of David....I'm going to die on the cross then go to heaven!"

Did He say that?

Of course not, as it would have defeated the purpose.

This is how God works, whether we like it or not. We can concoct it as being dishonest of Him, or we can accept that this is a method God uses to test us. I choose the latter.

[Lysimachus]

Exodus 35:12 the ark and its poles, the mercy seat, and the curtain of the screen;

Hebrews 9:3 NAS

Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,

Door? Where is the door?

Door is a metaphore. Curtain/veil--whatever. Door is the symbolic expression to represent what divides sections of the heavenly sanctuary.

Revelation 15:5 - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple [naos - "inner shrine] OF the tabernacle [skene -entire sanctuary] of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Revelation 11:19 - And the temple [naos - "inner shrine"] of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.

Thus we see that out the "tabernacle" (skene) there is an inner part, "naos", that has a "door" to it, and it leads to the Ark of the Covenant.

Logical deduction. Deducement, deducement, deducement! :)

[ClubV12]

Marcos, do you have a particular quote or verse that sheds light on Jesus briefly entering the Most Holy following His ascension?

[tall73]

Those who rejected the first and second angels message "AFTERWARD renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them."

The message they rejected was, "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come..." This to is fundamental to the sanctuary and investigative judgment doctrine. They are one and the same.

There were two groups, not one.

All who saw the light of the first and second angels’ messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness.

Group one was those who saw it and rejected it. And again this refers to the Millerite movement.

And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them. {1SM 63.9}

Here is the second group, those who received it during the Millerite movement but AFTERWARD renounced their faith and pronounced their experience (Millerite) a delusion.

Both groups according to Ellen were shut out.

However, the message they rejected was a false time setting message.

[tall73]

Just because the IJ may not have been understood until 1845 does not mean that it did not start in 1844.

which is a different topic than what we were talking about. I was showing that the comment referred to the millerite message.

[tall73]

Just because the IJ may not have been understood until 1845 does not mean that it did not start in 1844.

Nor does it mean it does either.

However Hebrews already spelled out the Day of Atonement cleansing, so whatever happened at the end of the 2300 days, and however they are reckoned, it won't be that.

[tall73]

The timing was not incorrect, but the event was. It revealed where people's hearts were at. God allowed it for a reason, despite one unable to make sense of it. That's where faith comes in. We need to just accept it.

A. the timing and the date were incorrect at first. 1843. Wrong date, wrong timing.

B. Ellen White says those who rejected it were lost. They were following the Bible by rejecting unbiblical and false date setting.

Your contention is that those who followed the Bible were wrong, and those who ignored the Bible (Miller, etc.) were right.

Doesn't fly.

[tall73]

It was a correct message.

Miller's message that Jesus was coming in 1843 was in no way right.

It was a false, time-setting message that went against the Bible. And those who rejected it based on the Bible were right.

A number of those who rejected Miller did so specifically because of date setting. Yet Ellen White says they are lost ,for following the Bible.

[tall73]

It was a correct message.

No it was not.

[tall73]

If their hearts were right, they would not have turned into people who were mocking, scoffing, and ridiculing, nor would they have made fun of Miller and his associates. It showed that they never truly wanted Jesus to come.

Actually we have some of the works from that time responding to Miller and not all were mocking. And some specifically said they had no issue with Jesus coming soon, but with date setting.

But even if you figure their hearts were wrong, their Bible texts were right. Miller was engaging in un-biblical date setting.

So what excuse did Miller and Ellen White etc. have in rejecting the Bible?

[tall73]

The disappointment helped to show who was who, and who really had been transformed in their hearts. It revealed where they were at.

It revealed who was who alright. It revealed those who listened to the Bible and those who did not.

1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Had the Millerites listened to those telling them not to engage in un-biblical date setting they would not have been disappointed.

[tall73]

Those who turned against it, and rejected it, the door was shut for them. They cannot be saved. They will be lost forever. Why? Because the fact that not one changed is proof of this fact. Everyone who rejected 1844 turned into people who attacked and derided Miller and the Millerite movement vehemently. Not one confessed and said they were sorry for doing this.

Those who were against Miller's false date-setting message?

What about Miller who was confronted with the Scriptures again and again and persisted in date-setting?

[tall73]

Because they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit as being the work of Satan. And for this they will pay.

The Holy Spirit was asking people to go against the words of Jesus?

[tall73]

John the Baptist preached that Jesus was going to come and be the deliverer of Israel. He thought that Jesus was going to deliver them from the Romans.

You need to watch Pastor Bohr's video: "Disappointment in the Sanctuary".

It's excellent!

Does this mean that John the Baptist was preaching a "false" message?

Absolutely not. Jesus allowed HUNDREDS of thousands of people to believe that He was going to establish the throne of David in literal Jerusalem by riding on a Colt. Was Jesus misleading them? After all, this was the tradition of what a king would do in ancient Israel. Ride on a colt as a procession.

[cheddar]

Ellen White mistakenly believed that all of the 3 angel’s messages were given in the time leading up to 1844.

They could spam me with a thousand quotes and it would never change my opinion.

The facts are that the everlasting gospel did not go to all the world and there was no mark of the beast. The church didn’t even receive the gospel until 1888 so it never happened.

Just think of what happened in their day as a dry rehearsal for the real thing in the last days. At the very end the 144K will give all three messages to the whole world and there won’t be any mistakes this time.

[tall73]

Now even if there were details that you think folks were confused on, was that because Jesus gave them a wrong message? Did He say He was going to free them from the Romans? No.

But Miller did deliver a false message of Jesus coming in 1843. They are simply not the same.

[tall73]

Ellen White mistakenly believed that all of the 3 angel’s messages were given in the time leading up to 1844.

They could spam me with a thousand quotes and it would never change my opinion.

The facts are that the everlasting gospel did not go to all the world and there was no mark of the beast. The church didn’t even receive the gospel until 1888 so it never happened.

Just think of what happened in their day as a dry rehearsal for the real thing in the last days. At the very end the 144K will give all three messages to the whole world and there won’t be any mistakes this time.

Well, that works better than the first angel's message being an untrue, anti-biblical date setting message.