Sanctuary

[wayfinder]

Typical for you to resort to a Metaphore when you lack anything resembling a fact.

The two texts you use are both future. Neither text has anything to do with the "shut door". Niether shows the foolish bridesmaids outside the Sanctuary, knocking. In order to support this teaching, one must show how the foolish went to heaven to knock on the "shut door".

Your faith is strong, but the facts are stronger than your faith.

[tall73]

Here is a selection by Pastor Dowling from

"An Exposition of the Prophecies Supposed by William Miller to Predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1843"

This was written to address Miller's views before 1843 arrived.

I have frequently been asked if I believe Mr. Miller to be sincere. I have invariably answered in the affirmative. I cannot but suppose that Mr. M. is a pious, well-meaning man. I would advise him, in conclusion, if he would escape the distress I know it would cause him in his old age to have been unintentionally instrumental in the spread of infidelity, to go home and preach Christ crucified to perishing sinners, which I have no doubt he is qualified to do, and to waste no more of a life which might be valuable if rightly spent, in vainly attempting to make known those times and seasons which God hath wisely concealed from the ken of mortals, and "put into His own power."

Notice Dowling objects to the time setting of Miller.

And notice how similar this quote is from Ellen White written years later.

Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}

Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify

the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than

Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a

chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these last days into disrepute.

Testimonies vol 4, pg 307

[Gibs]

Ellen White mistakenly believed that all of the 3 angel’s messages were given in the time leading up to 1844.

They could spam me with a thousand quotes and it would never change my opinion.

The facts are that the everlasting gospel did not go to all the world and there was no mark of the beast. The church didn’t even receive the gospel until 1888 so it never happened.

Just think of what happened in their day as a dry rehearsal for the real thing in the last days. At the very end the 144K will give all three messages to the whole world and there won’t be any mistakes this time.

Cheddar I believe the text of Rev chapter 14:4 to the end of the chapter stands to the fact those messages may have had an "application" but the fullfillment is a very last time event. They just saw the end before it's time is all. Again it's a getting the cart ahead of the horse.

We are soon going to see the power of the message go out when very soon and it will I'm sure surprise many where these 144, 000 come from and what they preach. Will it be the popular messaage heard today almost every where? Afraid not!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

That entrance into the Most Holy Place in 31 AD doesn't at all preclude His entrance into the Most Holy Place in 1844. His entrance in 1844 was for the purpose of beginning the last phase of His work, which is a work of investigation, or judgment, the typical Day of Atonement.

The previous entrance was in order to dedicate the entire sanctuary for His work as High Priest.

This is in complete harmony with what the Bible teaches.

Why does Hebrews indicate that He already made purification for sins in the first century?

Heb 1:3 After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

[Lysimachus]

Jesus did not misguide people.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.

He told them what would happen.

He did not tell them a false message such as Jesus is coming to earth around 1843.

Now Miller not only did not give all the details, he gave completely wrong details. He said Jesus would come around 1843. That is a wrong message.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

It was a correct message.

No it was not.

The message was, "The hour of His judgment has come".

That was the correct message. Despite the nature of that judgment being wrong.

William Miller was lead by God.

The Judgment hour message was lead by God.

Ellen White was a true prophet.

Ellen White was called in 1844--to help restore the sanctuary.

Joseph Smith was killed in 1844 -- God came to "cleanse" the garbage.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Those who turned against it, and rejected it, the door was shut for them. They cannot be saved. They will be lost forever. Why? Because the fact that not one changed is proof of this fact. Everyone who rejected 1844 turned into people who attacked and derided Miller and the Millerite movement vehemently. Not one confessed and said they were sorry for doing this.

Those who were against Miller's false date-setting message?

What about Miller who was confronted with the Scriptures again and again and persisted in date-setting?

Doesnt' mean that there wasn't a specific day and hour that they were to know when Christ would enter the Most Holy Place.

The day and hour of Christ's arrival was foretold in the 70 weeks, and one could even know when Christ would be crucified and go to heaven, yet they did not understand it.

God allowed Miller to misunderstand the nature of this date, despite the fact he was partially mistaken.

In fact, Miller hesitated on date setting. He set a year and a month, not a day and an hour.

Snow brought in the day and the hour, and he grudgingly accepted it.

So don't blame Miller too much.

God allowed things to fall in place for a special reason.

Also, if you read carefully, the Bible never says that "never will the day and the hour be revealed". Jesus said no man "knoweth" (present).

Particularly, however, the "day and the hour" that no man knoweth is more specifically referring to the close of probation.

Matthew

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

After the close of probation, the day and the hour will be revealed to God's people, for we are children of the day. But to the wicked, it will be as a thief in the night. Notice that Christ's expression "neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" is more in reference to the "shut door", yet the virgins are inquiring why the Lord won't open up to them. Probation has closed to them, but the physical appearing of Christ has not come yet.

The Son of Man has "come to His temple" (God's people).

Malachi

3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

[tall73]

With all due respect, I feel this question to be a bit on the careless side, and that it does not treat the issue in its broader context.

Concerning the Daily services:

NLT

Leviticus 4:3 If the high priest sins, bringing guilt upon the entire community, he must give a sin offering [Or purification offering] for the sin he has committed. He must present to the LORD a young bull with no defects.

Leviticus 4:19 Then the priest must remove all the animal’s fat and burn it on the altar,

Leviticus 4:20 just as he does with the bull offered as a sin offering for the high priest. Through this process, the priest will purify the people, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven. Then the priest must take what is left of the bull and carry it outside the camp and burn it there, just as is done with the sin offering for the high priest. This offering is for the sin of the entire congregation of Israel.

Leviticus 4:26 Then he must burn all the goat’s fat on the altar, just as he does with the peace offering. Through this process, the priest will purify the leader from his sin, making him right with the LORD, and he will be forgiven.

Leviticus 4:31 Then he must remove all the goat’s fat, just as he does with the fat of the peace offering. He will burn the fat on the altar, and it will be a pleasing aroma to the LORD. Through this process, the priest will purify the people, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven.

Leviticus 4:35 Then he must remove all the sheep’s fat, just as he does with the fat of a sheep presented as a peace offering. He will burn the fat on the altar on top of the special gifts presented to the LORD. Through this process, the priest will purify the people from their sin, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven.

One could beg the question, if purification was made for sins of the entire congregation throughout the daily services, then why the need for the Day of Atonement?

Without question, the processes here of purification of sins is from the people, not the cleansing of these sins from the sanctuary.

So far you have demonstrated that the sacrifice for the sins of the people in a particular instance purified the people.

Note, that doesn't show anything about the text in Hebrews 1.

We agree, the sacrifice for the people purified the people from the guilt of that sin in the OT.

[tall73]

Without question, the processes here of purification of sins is from the people, not the cleansing of these sins from the sanctuary.

The NIV renders Hebrews 1:3 thus:

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

It is not without question at all. In fact, it is an assertion with no evidence. Where does it say it is just the people? You stated it as though it was obvious.

And we already have the description of the purification of the heavenly things:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

The need for cleansing is noted from the type.

Then it is described how it happened past tense.

[tall73]

Neither does it say that the sanctuary is being purified in this context. And obviously, people are still sinning, so purification is not over.

It shows a COMPLETED corporate purification.

Where did that happen in the type? The Day of Atonement.

It is not talking about one instance of sin, as you posted in the examples from the sin offering for the people. It is talking about purification for all sins. And it was already done at that time. So your assertion that it can't be done is just that. An assertion.

You have not addressed this.

It is over. It is stated in the past tense. You just haven't figured out what it means.

A corporate provision can in fact be made before all of the things it is providing for are done.

Jesus is the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. However, the whole world does not accept Him.

[tall73]

Obviously then, if the heavenly things need to be purified, there must be bad things in the sanctuary that need to be purified, correct?

There is no mention of a Little Horn defiling the sanctuary, yet the context of Hebrews is concerning confessed sins. Thus, the purification of the heavenly sanctuary must include the purification of confesses sins of believers.

It is good you note that here we have actual Day of Atonement cleansing, not what happened in Daniel 8 which was cleansing from the defilement of the little horn, rather than sins of the people.

[tall73]

Question, is cleansing going on presently?

Most certainly:

ESV Hebrews

12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Yes, and there are many more where that came from:

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

We are invited in real time to come to find grace.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here is what you are not taking into account. What we see now is individual cleansing. It is acceptance of what Christ already did, which was making purification for sins on the corporate level.

That is what the cleansing on the Day of Atonement was. It was cleansing of all the sins of the camp. And it was not just of the building, it was of the people as well:

Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Lev 16:33 He shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.

The Day of Atonementment cleansing in the sanctuary was a corporate blood work for all the sins of the camp. That is what we see in Hebrews.

And then each person comes in real time to have it applied to themselves and their sins as they confess.

[tall73]

If we were to interpret Hebrews 1:3 as you have, that Christ finished the purification process, then the rest of these other passages would instantly become meaningless. Remember, you quoted "after MAKING purification for sins" -- hence, how can there be any future purification of sins if this is past tense?

It is not meaningless at all as it is the corporate provision for all sins. That is just what Jesus did in the first century. And that is what is pictured in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement--blood offered for all the sins of the people in the whole camp.

[Lysimachus]

Are you suggesting that only the Day of Atonement worked on a corporate level?

I find a corporate working also in the daily according to Leviticus 4.

[tall73]

The NIV renders Hebrews 1:3 thus:

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Obviously then, the ESV translation in this context is not as helpful. The NIV renders it more accurately--especially in light of the rest of the passages we are dealing with.

It still says the same. He provided purification for sins---past tense.

NIV: After he had provided purification for sins

ESV: After making purification for sins

Both indicate he made purification for sins prior to sitting down in the next part of the clause.

Let's look at some others, which say the same thing:

KJV-when he had by himself purged our sins, sat

NAS-When He had made purification of sins, He sat

Darby-having made [by himself] the purification of sins, set himself down

Holman-After making purification for sins, He sat

Young's Literal- having made a cleansing of our sins, sat

RSV-When he had made purification for sins, he sat

They are describing something already complete in the first century.

The sentence reads fairly literally

Cleansing (noun) of sins having made

[Lysimachus]

So you are suggesting we have been living in the Day of Judgment since 31 A.D. and not 1844?

That hardly makes sense, as Christ just bypassed the Holy Place ministration.

What about Revelation 14 which puts the judgment in the future? John wrote this after 31 A.D.

What about the fact that there are 2 more angels after the first angel that pronounces Judgment?

What about the fact that judgment comes before the Second Advent, and that there are many occurrences in Revelation 13 after the judgment is announced?

The Day of Atonement has nothing to do with the judgment hour in Revelation 14?

there are so many missing pieces to your assertions, it is baffling.

In fact, you seem to be able to only rely on Leviticus and Hebrews alone for your assertions.

But you ignore Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, Malachi, and many other books necessary to come to an accurate conclusion of the future pre-Advent judgment from the time the Bible authors wrote.

[tall73]

Are you suggesting that only the Day of Atonement worked on a corporate level?

I find a corporate working also in the daily according to Leviticus 4.

That was corporate provision for one specific sin that the whole campe participated in.

Hebrews 1:3 is talking about all sins total, including individual sins by individuals, sins of the whole camp, etc. all of them.

He made purification for sins, all the sins. That is Day of Atonement. That was the only time when all the sins were dealt with at once, corporately.

This was purification for all sins of the camp, which happened on the Day of Atonement.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

The NIV renders Hebrews 1:3 thus:

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Obviously then, the ESV translation in this context is not as helpful. The NIV renders it more accurately--especially in light of the rest of the passages we are dealing with.

It still says the same. He provided purification for sins---past tense.

NIV: After he had provided purification for sins

ESV: After making purification for sins

Both indicate he made purification for sins prior to sitting down in the next part of the clause.

Let's look at some others, which say the same thing:

KJV-when he had by himself purged our sins, sat

NAS-When He had made purification of sins, He sat

Darby-having made [by himself] the purification of sins, set himself down

Holman-After making purification for sins, He sat

Young's Literal- having made a cleansing of our sins, sat

RSV-When he had made purification for sins, he sat

They are describing something already complete in the first century.

The sentence reads fairly literally

Cleansing (noun) of sins having made

No doubt Christ's sacrifice provided a corporate purification for sins, for all men. The nature of the judgment, however, is definitely on a greater, more intense level. And it can only precede the Second Advent.

The High Priest came out to bless the people at the end of the Day of Atonement, and after the Day of Atonement began the new year. This was the day when it was determined who would get cut off from the congregation.

Apparently, this did not take place on the cross. And it's been almost 2000 years, and Jesus has not come out of His temple to meet the people on earth.

Truly, there is something wrong with this picture.

It makes every bit of sense that the judgment commences future from the time of the Apostles, yet prior to the Second Advent.

1844 aligns perfectly with this paradigm.

[tall73]

If we were to interpret Hebrews 1:3 as you have.....

Now I have explained how I explain it.

But you still didn't answer the question, despite your very long post.

Why did it say He past tense provided purification for sins.

It means something. What does it mean?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Are you suggesting that only the Day of Atonement worked on a corporate level?

I find a corporate working also in the daily according to Leviticus 4.

That was corporate provision for one specific sin that the whole campe participated in.

Hebrews 1:3 is talking about all sins total, including individual sins by individuals, sins of the whole camp, etc. all of them.

He made purification for sins, all the sins. That is Day of Atonement. That was the only time when all the sins were dealt with at once, corporately.

This was purification for all sins of the camp, which happened on the Day of Atonement.

Hmm... I'm just not seeing it how you're seeing it. I have a hard time seeing how you can see these texts as "proof positive" against the IJ.

If these texts existed alone without Daniel, Ezekiel, Malachi, and Revelation, I'm sure one could conclude that from the texts that atonement all finished at the cross. But we have a lot more to chew on than just Hebrews.

We cannot base our doctrine on the sanctuary and the judgment just off of Hebrews and Leviticus alone.

[tall73]

It should be noted that Hebrews 9:22,23 does not indicate "WHEN" the heavenly things will be purified, but it mentions the need for the heavenly things to be purified.

To get the answer this, we turn to other parts of scripture:

Your premise is flawed.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

This verse does not indicate timing as you said. Necessity is a noun and to be purified is an infinitive.

However, it is not true that no timing is indicated because he goes right on to describe it:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

The word for ties verse 24 to the previous. He is elaborating on the need for cleansing. And the elaboration indicates that Jesus already ENTERED (past tense) into the heavenly sanctuary in God's presence to present Himself before God, compared to the work of the high priest on the Day of Atonement.

It not only mentions that a cleansing is needed but tells us how it happened -- in the past.

[tall73]

To get the answer this, we turn to other parts of scripture:

[color:#3333FF]KJV - Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days [evening-mornings]; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed [sadaq].

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

NKJV Ezekiel 4:

4 “Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

7 “Therefore you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem; your arm shall be uncovered, and you shall prophesy against it. 8 And surely I will restrain you so that you cannot turn from one side to another till you have ended the days of your siege.

Numbers 14:

31 But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. 35 I the Lord have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.’”

You do realize you just gave me a "year day" and a "day year" principle right?

In Ezekiel he would do one day for the years they had sinned.

In Numbers they would do one year for the days they had spied out the land.

They are opposites.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

If we were to interpret Hebrews 1:3 as you have.....

Now I have explained how I explain it.

But you still didn't answer the question, despite your very long post.

Why did it say He past tense provided purification for sins.

It means something. What does it mean?

In a corporate sense, Christ has provided purification for "all men", no doubt, as stated in a number of texts.

But we find evidence of this in Leviticus 4 as well, which is not the Day of Atonement.

We find corporate work even in the Daily Services:

Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which should not be done, and are guilty;

4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.

4:16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:

4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger [in some] of the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the LORD, [even] before the veil.

4:18 And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Truly, do we not see a corporate work of purification going on here?

In light of this, I do not see how Hebrews destroys 1844.

[tall73]

Now we turn to your quite lengthy cut and paste job.

The entire first portion of it can be eliminated because the issue is not one of translation but context.

In the light of what we have studied above, we must ask one final question: If Daniel 8:14 is dealing with the cleansing of the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement, then why didn't Daniel use the word sadaq instead? The reason is very simple. The Hebrew word taher is a technical term with a very restricted and narrow meaning. It is used over 50 times in the book of Leviticus to describe cultic/ritual/ceremonial cleansing in connection with the earthly sanctuary service. The use of this term in Daniel 8:14 deals with the cleansing, not of the Old Testament shadow/type but of the heavenly reality/original! Therefore a broader term needed to be used.

[John317]

...Hebrews 1:3

Why did it say He past tense provided purification for sins.

It means something. What does it mean?

The shedding of Christ blood as the divine sacrifice provided purification of sins. That sacrifice need never be made again. It is all sufficient to save every human who's ever lived.

This is not the same as purifying the sanctuary or the books of record.

Notice that 1 John 1: 9 describes Christ's cleansing of people's sins as in the future:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is therefore obvious that all sins have not been cleansed. Rather, Hebrews 1: 3 is telling us that Christ's sacrifice provided the means for the cleansing of all our sins.

"After He had procured man's purification from sins, He took His seat at the right hand of God's majesty." (The New Testament in the Language of the People, Charles B. Williams)