ClubV12 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 One test of those bearing new light is that their testimony is in harmony with the law and the testimony. They will use the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy to promote their new truth, whatever it might be. That is the sheeps clothing, the covering of the wolf, sincerely presented scripture and piously presented Sister White quotes. Their are certain pillars of Adventism that must not, cannot ever be moved. The sanctuary and the investigative judgments are such, this is in essence the first angels message. If any Adventist rejects these fundamenatl truths, tears them down, attempts to replace them with "new truth", he is a false teacher. To the law and the testimony, which is the Spirit of Prophecy, test all things, hold fast that which is good. The Investiagtive Judgment is a primary truth brought into the light with the Spirit of Prophecy, those who reject that truth, reject the prophet.
ClubV12 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 SD, THIS discussion is about the SANCTUARY, read the TOPIC headline. This particular part of the discussion deals with your rejection of the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine on the sanctuary, the investigative judgment and the first angels message. It has nothing to do with any Sabbath issues.
ClubV12 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 As I said earlier, I will not enter into a debate with one who has rejected the light of present truth, the first angels message. Nor will I offer a blessing of any kind for them.
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Tall73, Jesus said that only His Father knew the time when He was comeing back when Jesus was here. Later, Jesus told us that now His Father told Him when He was going to come back and that this same information would be made known, but ONLY to the bondservants living in the last generation. Rev. 1:1-3 is proof for this. If you are not one of the 144k, then you will NEVER know the truth about end time prophecy. EGW could NOT have known, because God said so in Dav. 12:10. Therefore, people using her words as well as the words of others who are long dead are the ones talked about in Rev. 2:18-26. Now, IF you do not agree with this, then I would love to hear your answers as to who the "Jezebel" is and why I am wrong about Jesus giving the information about the time in Rev. 1:1 to the 144k only.
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 I'll tell what 'my new light' is, that Christ rose from the dead "on the Sabbath Day late, mid-afternoon before the First Day of the week", Matthew 28:1. That's it! Now may the Holy Spirit guide us further in all Truth. Gerhard Ebersoehn Nice to know someone else has found the truth regarding the three days and three nights. Too bad the Adventists don't jump on this because it would do away with the "lord's day" argument. Problemm is, the prophecy found in Rev. 2:18-26, they have been led astray by her words.!
Daryl Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Here goes my perfect 777 post count. Canada may be headed down that road soon? Originally Posted By: Plley Hi ClubV12,Yes I am a Seventh Day adventist, I know there are a lot of differences in beliefs, don't know how it is in America, but here in France none of those I know speaks about really adventists beliefs, or just a few. "we" use to speak about things everyone agree, and it so often turns to a "god bless you" Sorry to hear about that. I had heard that in the EU in general a great change has occurred in all Christian churches such that evolutionism has pretty much emptied them out and Europe has moved into a post-Christian era. Canada may be headed down that road soon and If America reaches the 80% acceptance of evolutionism stage - it too will follow that road. in Christ, Bob In His Love, Mercy & Grace Daryl http://www.maritime-sda-online.com https://www.pugwashsdachurch.org/media?page=1&sort_by=Date&is_ascending=0&search=&tags=&presenter=
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 So Dayrl, how do you know you are saved by grace? Have you tested this theory out yet? If so, what is your test?
Lysimachus Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 The Sabbath and the Investigative Judgment are inseparable concepts. Without the Investigative Judgment, the Sabbath loses much of its significance and glory for these last days. It is consistent for former SDA's to give up the Sabbath along with the IJ. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 says nothing about a false message from Miller. It is an allusion to the experience of Ezekiel. Ezekiel preached a TRUE message about the coming judgment of God. So would the people in the last days. Eze 3:1 And he said to me, "Son of man, eat whatever you find here. Eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." Eze 3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he gave me this scroll to eat. Eze 3:3 And he said to me, "Son of man, feed your belly with this scroll that I give you and fill your stomach with it." Then I ate it, and it was in my mouth as sweet as honey. Eze 3:4 And he said to me, "Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with my words to them. Eze 3:5 For you are not sent to a people of foreign speech and a hard language, but to the house of Israel-- Eze 3:6 not to many peoples of foreign speech and a hard language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely, if I sent you to such, they would listen to you. Eze 3:7 But the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, for they are not willing to listen to me: because all the house of Israel have a hard forehead and a stubborn heart. Miller's message on the other hand was a false, date setting message that contradicted the words of Jesus. But Miller's message was not a false, date-setting message that contradicted the words of Jesus. Miller had every right to interpret these words according to his understanding. Jesus did not say that no one would "ever" know the day or the hour of His return. He said no man "knoweth" (present). Also, the pioneers put much exegesis into dealing with these passages, and show how they interpret these messages from Jesus. They had every right to put forth their understanding of these passages. You say that you go by the Bible, and not anyone's experience. Tall73, everyone who professes Christianity says they go by the Bible. Everyone. Calvinists, when arguing with Arminians, will tell you, "I can't go by your experience, I have to go by the Bible", and vice versa. Millions of "Christians" with opposing views all claim to be going by the Bible and the Bible alone, yet they are all in disunity on doctrine with one another. Why do you think Adventists accept the Spirit of Prophecy? Because with out someone like Ellen White, God's people will NEVER come into unity. So to reject her, is to reject unity, and forever be at discord with everyone. William Miller did not get the date wrong. He did not get wrong the fact that it was the judgment hour. God was in the message despite the fact that he thought that the earth was the sanctuary. After 1844, when the new light came that there was a heavenly sanctuary that needs cleansing, things began to fall into place. Those people who fell by the way side and gave up the 2300 year prophecy after 1844 were not hungrying and thirsting after righteousness. Why? Because they did not open up their Bibles and pray to God in humble supplication that the Lord might guide them to discover what this prophecy meant, and why Jesus did not come in 1844. Instead, they turned into people of derision and ridicule rather than accepting it as truth. Then they accused the Adventists of using it as a "face-saving" device. What a convenient accusation for not giving this teaching a candid Biblical investigation. The Bible is plain. There is a heavenly sanctuary according to Hebrews. The Bible is plain. There is a sanctuary that needed cleansing at the termination of 2300 years. No need to play theological hopscotch, play peekaboo, ring-around the rosy, and dance between the raindrops. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Dr. Rich Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 The Sabbath and the Investigative Judgment are inseparable concepts. Without the Investigative Judgment, the Sabbath loses much of its significance and glory for these last days. It is consistent for former SDA's to give up the Sabbath along with the IJ. Maros, you are way off base with this 'judgment' upon others and you have NO idea how many people have given up the false idea of the IJ, yet keep the Sabbath. As for former SDAs, the ones I know have not given up the Sabbath because that is God's law, but have fully given up many of the stupid 28 doctrines because they can't be proven true--and the worst one is the IJ! I speak for myself that the Sabbath can't lose any of it's significance not now and not ever, without the IJ! The IJ is NOT found in Rev. 12:17.
ClubV12 Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Seventh day, that was an interesting footnote about the Catholic spies looking for smoke from certain chimneys on Sabbath.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 We need the IJ preached. It is a central part of the Three Angels' Messages. Without 1844 and the IJ, the SDA church wouldn't even exist; and without it, we might as well join the other churches. The Sabbath is not even essential unless the IJ doctrine is right. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 The Sabbath and the Investigative Judgment are inseparable concepts. Without the Investigative Judgment, the Sabbath loses much of its significance and glory for these last days. It is consistent for former SDA's to give up the Sabbath along with the IJ. Wow-- that is exactly what I just posted. It is SO true-- yet how few, even of SDAs, realize it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 ...William Miller did not get the date wrong. He did not get wrong the fact that it was the judgment hour. God was in the message despite the fact that he thought that the earth was the sanctuary. What would have happened if Miller had preached that the Investigative Judgment was about to begin? Would such a message have been taken as seriously as the message that Jesus was coming? Of course not. It would have been ignored. There's a sense in which Jesus did come in 1844-- only He didn't come to this earth, but He came to His temple to begin judgment. It would have been like Jesus preaching that He was going to die as a common criminal. Such a message would not have been paid attention to. What people paid attention to was the message that "the king" had come and that He would set up His kingdom. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 ...William Miller did not get the date wrong. He did not get wrong the fact that it was the judgment hour. God was in the message despite the fact that he thought that the earth was the sanctuary. What would have happened if Miller had preached that the Investigative Judgment was about to begin? Would such a message have been taken as seriously as the message that Jesus was coming? Of course not. It would have been ignored. There's a sense in which Jesus did come in 1844-- only He didn't come to this earth, but He came to His temple to begin judgment. It would have been like Jesus preaching that He was going to die as a common criminal. Such a message would not have been paid attention to. What people paid attention to was the message that "the king" had come and that He would set up His kingdom. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 do you believe the visions of Ellen G. White? Do you believe her 'Early Writings'? Do you believe her vision of the Seventh-day Adventist Church that would preach the Sabbath truth, "MORE FULLY"? Yes, sure do. Hope you do. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Now I have explained how I explain it. But you still didn't answer the question, despite your very long post. Why did it say He past tense provided purification for sins. It means something. What does it mean? John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus ...William Miller did not get the date wrong. He did not get wrong the fact that it was the judgment hour. God was in the message despite the fact that he thought that the earth was the sanctuary. What would have happened if Miller had preached that the Investigative Judgment was about to begin? Would such a message have been taken as seriously as the message that Jesus was coming? Of course not. It would have been ignored. There's a sense in which Jesus did come in 1844-- only He didn't come to this earth, but He came to His temple to begin judgment. Daniel 7 says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days". in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 Daniel 7 says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days". Good point. What's interesting is that the Millerites did not consider that verse until after the Great Disappointment. Like most Christians, the Millerites thought that verse was a description of the second coming. But as you point out, when we look closely at it, it becomes clear that it is describing the coming of the Son of Man to the Father in the context of judgment. That's very significant. It is also obvious that this judgment occurs prior to the second coming of Christ. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Daniel 7 says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days". in Christ, Bob Please teach me your summarization skills. You excel greatly in knowing how to make some serious punches with few words. Wonderful talent to have. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I speak for myself that the Sabbath can't lose any of it's significance not now and not ever, without the IJ! The IJ is NOT found in Rev. 12:17. Revelation 14 is very clear about a future judgment. Yet this judgment precedes the Second Coming. There's no way out of it. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Posted February 28, 2012 That's right. Revelation 14 is predicting that there will come a time prior to Christ's return when three messages will proclaimed to the whole world, one of which will be that the judgment of God IS COME. It won't be a message that the judgment WILL COME or CAME BEFORE. The message is "the judgment IS ALREADY COME NOW." John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Wow, powerful verse Daniel 7:13. That opens up a whole new view, for me, of the inaugeration of the Sanctuary after the ascension and the impact of 1844. Good stuff on this thread if you can cut through the clutter and trash to find it. Like digging for hidden treasure. :)
BobRyan Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: BobRyan Daniel 7 says that in that 1844 event "The Son of Man comes in the clouds of Heaven -- to the Ancient of Days". Good point. What's interesting is that the Millerites did not consider that verse until after the Great Disappointment. Like most Christians, the Millerites thought that verse was a description of the second coming. But as you point out, when we look closely at it, it becomes clear that it is describing the coming of the Son of Man to the Father in the context of judgment. That's very significant. It is also obvious that this judgment occurs prior to the second coming of Christ. Agreed - they were mistaken about the 2nd coming event. So also were the disciples mistaken on Palm Sunday when they thought Christ was coming to be crowned as King. If they had known that they were celebrating his up coming death the cross as the messiah - they would not have been so happy. But if they could have seen beyond that to the fact that the World itself was about to be either saved for forever doomed by what was about to happen - perhaps they would have known enough to rejoice to have a Savior providing the "Atoning sacrifice not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world" 1John 2:2. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
ClubV12 Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Resurrection of ALL the wicked dead does not take place at the second coming. That occurs at the third return to planet earth a 1,000 years later.
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