Pacific Union and WO

[M. T. Cross]

http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?id=37&step=2

I think a lot of ya'll could use this link. Why settle for doing it verbally when you could do it for reals!

[Woody]

http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?id=37&step=2

I think a lot of ya'll could use this link. Why settle for doing it verbally when you could do it for reals!

Well said EC.

[M. T. Cross]

I am going to risk asking something here.

You all are of the opinion that humans need to be saved from thier sinful nature. So I have a couple of questions. Simple yes or no to them would be awesome though I suspect I will get a plethra of bible verses that I am not gonna read thrown at me here too. Here goes

1. Now when you really think about this whole issue with the ordination of women, do you think that it is a matter of salvation?

2. If yes, do you think that those brought to your religion by ordained women will not be saved because they were brought to it by those women?

[Woody]

I am going to risk asking something here.

You all are of the opinion that humans need to be saved from thier sinful nature. So I have a couple of questions. Simple yes or no to them would be awesome though I suspect I will get a plethra of bible verses that I am not gonna read thrown at me here too. Here goes

1. Now when you really think about this whole issue with the ordination of women, do you think that it is a matter of salvation?

2. If yes, do you think that those brought to your religion by ordained women will not be saved because they were brought to it by those women?

Good One EC.

[Naomi]

1. No.

2. Yes

[JoeMo]

1. Absolutely Not.

2. N/A

[JoeMo]

MTCross,

Why bring a knife to a gunfight? :)

[M. T. Cross]

1. No.

2. Yes

I am a little confused my friend.

You don't think it is a matter of salvation, but if people are brought to the church by a woman they will not be saved?

I am likely reading your answer wrong, or my wording of the second question is not clear.

[M. T. Cross]

MTCross,

Why bring a knife to a gunfight?

Its more effective to stab and twist with a knife. More in line with the things people do with words.

[JoeMo]

Good point (no pun intended).

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

1. No.

2. Yes

I am a little confused my friend.

You don't think it is a matter of salvation, but if people are brought to the church by a woman they will not be saved?

I am likely reading your answer wrong, or my wording of the second question is not clear.

Perhaps I misread your question:

Quote:

1. Now when you really think about this whole issue with the ordination of women, do you think that it is a matter of salvation?

2. If yes, do you think that those brought to your religion by ordained women will not be saved because they were brought to it by those women?

Ok my first answer was/is No

What I intended to say but did not read your question correctly, is that I suppose firstly, i was not thinking of women who brought me into the religion as being ordained (mine were housewives, bible teachers, etc.) Just answering from a personal issue which is how I read your question.

Moreover, IMO it is simply not important how you/we got there ... what is important is what we do afterward.

[M. T. Cross]

Thats what I thought you meant.

So what I am getting at here is that if its not a matter of salvation why does everyone get so worked up about the whole thing.

Either do away with the ordination thing or quit worrying about the gender of the person ordained and focus on what good that person can do in the ordained position.

[JoeMo]

I very strongly support the latter of your two suggestions, MT.

[M. T. Cross]

Maybe I should be the GC president.......... Would give people a whole lotta other things to be concerned about

[JoeMo]

It would definitely take the church's mind off the small stuff! :)

[Naomi]

Thats what I thought you meant.

So what I am getting at here is that if its not a matter of salvation why does everyone get so worked up about the whole thing.

Either do away with the ordination thing or quit worrying about the gender of the person ordained and focus on what good that person can do in the ordained position.

Thank you EC. I keep saying that we should focus good which needs to be done ...

Which is probably what will happen in due time, but it is not up to just one man or one committee ... the issue is that it is a World Body that all have a say in. For all things there is a season ... I have read that in several belief systems. My issue is not for or against ... it is because of all the hostile, snide remarks and mis-information being disseminated concerning this issue. My biggest resentment is referring it to WO instead of taking a little effort to call it Women's Ordination ... how petty is that! LOL

[teresaq]

The very insulting interruption of the World President (Ted Wilson) by a female parlimentarian,

And revealing.

[Woody]

Maybe I should be the GC president.......... Would give people a whole lotta other things to be concerned about

Wow. Sometimes it takes an outsider to help us see things so clearly. THanks EC. You've hit the nail on the head.

[Woody]

Quote:

Yet you found it necessary to point out here, in your post, that the parliamentarian was a female. It does indeed appear "revealing", else why make mention of whether it was male or female?

Did you also point out that the Pres was running over time without any apparent respect for the procedure's time limits,or indication that he would end soon? Do you believe that is OK? The ends justify the means? Or he is the 'king' so he can do whatever he wishes? Which would mean he doesn't have to observe any law?

[teresaq]

http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?id=37&step=2

I think a lot of ya'll could use this link. Why settle for doing it verbally when you could do it for reals!

Why should atheists, unbelievers, etc become Christians since they behave so much better without being one? Or why become a Christian if they have to behave like the devil to be one?

I believe EGW has a statement to that effect somewhere.

Please forgive me for the part I play in that picture and please don't hold it against God. He's the innocent Victim in all this. When we behave that way we are not acting like God, we are acting like Satan.

[JoeMo]

Teresa,

I'm too digitally inept to post a 'thumbs up" smiley face; but nice post, sister!

Be Blessed, JoeMo

[teresaq]

I am going to risk asking something here.

You all are of the opinion that humans need to be saved from thier sinful nature. So I have a couple of questions. Simple yes or no to them would be awesome though I suspect I will get a plethra of bible verses that I am not gonna read thrown at me here too. Here goes

1. Now when you really think about this whole issue with the ordination of women, do you think that it is a matter of salvation?

2. If yes, do you think that those brought to your religion by ordained women will not be saved because they were brought to it by those women?

I think the issue is much deeper than WO...in fact just when I think I've gotten focused another point is seen to fit in. This last point being our Pres justifying the SPD in coercing Sunday worship on a few of its rather helpless members and putting them out of the churches for non-compliance.

On top of the first i-word, in trying to convince people that Sunday is really Saturday, we have the second i-word that was illustrated quite nicely in Orsen Well's novel demanding that people see 3 fingers when 4 are being held up. Imagine a unique week imposed on these same people kept by noone else on this planet. A week with no Sunday/first day, that goes directly from "Sabbath" to Monday, and has two Fridays to compensate for the missing first day.

Yet is making veiled threats against unions ordaining women to shepherd the flock of God. Even that is not over whether the 'shepherds' are good or evil be they male or female. No, apparently an evil male shepherd is ok, because he is male, but a righteous female is not ok, because she is female. (not saying, man bad - woman good, for the easily confused.)

In short,

it is a far worse crime to ordain women, something that has no direct command of God forbidding, and that He may not have a problem with

yet no crime to coerce a people to break a direct command, written and spoken by God Himself.

Absolutely amazing logic!!

---------------

To answer your questions.

1. No it is not a matter of salvation and God will not rain down hailstones and fire as a result.

Coercing people to keep Sunday claiming both the BRI, that is the Bible Research Institute, of the GC and SPD condone it will bring hailstones and fire.

[teresaq]

Which is probably what will happen in due time, but it is not up to just one man or one committee ... the issue is that it is a World Body that all have a say in. ...

If I may Naomi, I would like to flip that around. It is not for a majority to inflict on a minority their world view. In other words a supposed majority have no right to force a minority to live according to the majority's view. Especially when the decision has no effect on the majority.

It seems to me that everyone should be happy now. The unions that want WO get it and the ones that don't want it do not have a GC decision saying it is ok or mandating that it be so.

But then I can be simple-minded at times...I see no need for complicating matters.

Could it be that we are being manipulated by irrelevancies, albeit unintentionally?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?id=37&step=2

I think a lot of ya'll could use this link. Why settle for doing it verbally when you could do it for reals!

Why should atheists, unbelievers, etc become Christians since they behave so much better without being one? Or why become a Christian if they have to behave like the devil to be one?

I believe EGW has a statement to that effect somewhere.

Please forgive me for the part I play in that picture and please don't hold it against God. He's the innocent Victim in all this. When we behave that way we are not acting like God, we are acting like Satan.

I hope that you understand that I am not trying to say that I am better than you or anyone else here. What I do think is that I am looking in from the outside I see the behavioural aspect of this argument more clearly. What I see is otherwise kind hearted people taking digs and jabs at each other.

I really do think it is possible to feel passionatly about a subject and still be able to debate it in a polite, considerate way. Some of the digs that have been taken don't surprise me because the people digging seem to do that to anyone that does not agree with them on any topic. But it has been done so much that eveyone is stabbing back now.

[Woody]

Good point EC. Appreciate your insights.