Pacific Union and WO

[doug yowell]

Perhaps it would be better that our prayers seek guidance and instruction from the Holy Spirit about what we as a people should do rather than seeking to instruct the Holy Spirit on what it should do.

the Holy Spirit has already instructed us what to do as a people (I Tim.3:14,15 II Tim.3:14-17)

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Ger, between now and the PUC meeting will you pray with us for the Holy Spirit to be present at that meeting to guide in the outcome?

The HOly Spirit is only "given to those who obey Him."

True Doug. The Holy Spirit never leads in opposition to the Word of God. Other spirits will though..

[Tom Wetmore]

As you assured, you will be praying for the Holy Spirit to prevail upon that meeting. Many others will also be praying earnestly along with you, some who agree with you, some who don't. But everyone will be seeking the Holy Spirit's presence in that meeting. ( I would note that much prayer also preceded the Columbia Union meeting.)

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome any other spirit?

Do you now trust the outcome to the Holy Spirit, regardless of which way it goes? After it is over, will you believe that the Holy Spirit was there guiding the hearts and minds and actions of those present, regardless of the outcome?

Or will you only accept that the Holy Spirit was there if what happens is consistent with your own understanding and wisdom?

Proverbs 3:5-7...

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Perhaps it would be better that our prayers seek guidance and instruction from the Holy Spirit about what we as a people should do rather than seeking to instruct the Holy Spirit on what it should do.

the Holy Spirit has already instructed us what to do as a people (I Tim.3:14,15 II Tim.3:14-17)

That would be going on the supposition that others are to act in accordance with our understanding and conscience not their own bible study and conscience.

Perhaps WOPE is an evil. Perhaps headship is the greater evil in God's eyes and He overrode it in favor of the lesser evil.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

[select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

[olger]

Tom. Millions of people were praying in 1859 that war would not come to America. We know what happened.

[teresaq]

Tom. Millions of people were praying in 1859 that war would not come to America. We know what happened.

The pig war?

Or are we just playing 'toppers' with the HS as a ball?

[Jeannieb43]

Do you now trust the outcome to the Holy Spirit, regardless of which way it goes? After it is over, will you believe that the Holy Spirit was there guiding the hearts and minds and actions of those present, regardless of the outcome?

Or will you only accept that the Holy Spirit was there if what happens is consistent with your own understanding and wisdom?

That, in a nutshell, is the heart of the whole matter.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Do you now trust the outcome to the Holy Spirit, regardless of which way it goes? After it is over, will you believe that the Holy Spirit was there guiding the hearts and minds and actions of those present, regardless of the outcome?

Or will you only accept that the Holy Spirit was there if what happens is consistent with your own understanding and wisdom?

That, in a nutshell, is the heart of the whole matter.

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom. Millions of people were praying in 1859 that war would not come to America. We know what happened.

missing the point, again... and a non sequitur...

Perhaps consider the questions again, more carefully this time.

[olger]

It is right on the point, Tom.

Rejoice always,

G

[Gibs]

Let God do the ordaining and to us men all that is left is a recognition that a cdertain one is ordained of Him.

Our ordinations don't amount to a hill of beans, a good hill of good beans is worth something.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Really Gibs, that is all that our practice of ordination is, recognizing that God has called a person to a specific task/purpose.

And there is the rub. Some are simply unwilling, unable or unready to recognize that God has called women to pastoral ministry. What is at issue is whether those who refuse, or are unwilling, or unable to see what God has done and continues to do through His calling on those women will continue to stand in the way by attempting to deny those who can see and conscientiously recognize God's calling on those women.

[CyberGuy]

Aug 18 4 to 6pm PDT saturday afternoon. That is today.

Disccusion on the upcoming vote on womens ordination

http://llUC.org

[CyberGuy]

Sunday Aug 19 2012 1 pm PDT

Puc in session. Hear the Historic debate and the vote live on womens ordaination for the pacific Union Conference

http://session.adventistfaith.org

[Woody]

Aug 18 4 to 6pm PDT saturday afternoon. That is today.

Disccusion on the upcoming vote on womens ordination

http://llUC.org

Thanks CyberGuy. Just a couple more hours. I am looking forward to this. It should be historic. Very Cool.

[Gerr]

As you assured, you will be praying for the Holy Spirit to prevail upon that meeting. Many others will also be praying earnestly along with you, some who agree with you, some who don't. But everyone will be seeking the Holy Spirit's presence in that meeting. ( I would note that much prayer also preceded the Columbia Union meeting.)

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome any other spirit?

Do you now trust the outcome to the Holy Spirit, regardless of which way it goes? After it is over, will you believe that the Holy Spirit was there guiding the hearts and minds and actions of those present, regardless of the outcome?

Or will you only accept that the Holy Spirit was there if what happens is consistent with your own understanding and wisdom?

Proverbs 3:5-7...

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

So, which Spirit was at work before the GC session that voted down WO? (BTW, I have no strong feelings either for or against WO. I am just concerned about one part going against the decision of the whole body.)

[Woody]

Quote:

So, which Spirit was at work before the GC session that voted down WO? (BTW, I have no strong feelings either for or against WO. I am just concerned about one part going against the decision of the whole body.)

Truth is progressive. ANd God takes us step by step. He does not knock us over the head with all truth and understanding at once. The initial GC vote was infantile. We are now becoming more mature.

[olger]

Truth is progressive.

So is perfidiousness.

G

[Woody]

A church that does not 'grow' is ....

[monty]

is.............destined to be replaced in some manner by one who does.

[teresaq]

I think it was the one that was worried about 'custom'.

[Felix Florimon]

Truth is progressive. ANd God takes us step by step. He does not knock us over the head with all truth and understanding at once. The initial GC vote was infantile. We are now becoming more mature.

Based on my own personal experience, I usually see a higher percentage of women than men in all kinds of Christian congregations, including the SDA Church. However, the percentage of sermons during worship services is over 95% coming from men. The number of sermons during worship service coming from women is very low. However, women usually have a very strong nurturing and supportive role within the church. Without women, our congregations could easily become very dry and almost deserted. Nonetheless, when I think about itinerary lay preachers moving from a distant geographic place to another, my memory only brings to my mind male preachers. Moreover, when I try to bring to mind self-supporting ministries that depend mostly of preaching about almost any biblical topic, including prophecies, all of them are led by a male. The question comes why we are now so much focusing about whether we should be ordaining women besides ordaining men?

The reason is that a Christian human mind is not only lead by spiritual concerns. It is also highly influenced by political concerns. We need to take into account that the Pacific Union is in a region of the USA where the political predominant influence in such place has tried very hard and has been very successful in blurring the distinction between male and female sexual gender even in individuals who could legally marry and raise a family with kids. Therefore, no one should be surprised that the Pacific Union is the first “unit block” within the Seventh Day Adventist Church that has been shaken in order to be the first one to comply with political concerns within the entire United States of America and within the entire world. If this is “growing up” and getting “more mature” as a church, I am very afraid of what could follow next.

Those who like to raise their fingers in order to make rebuking remarks against the Spirit of our Lord Jesus (who inspired writing of the New Testament) for no speaking forcibly against slavery should be warned to look more closely to secular history regarding the issue of human slavery and historical news reports regarding the issue of human to human violence because, unfortunately, those who don’t wish to learn from the horrendous lessons of history will be condemned to repeat it. They should note that the teachings in the New Testament regarding how slaves and their owners should behave with each other was written in a time when being a Christian could be considered a public offense punishable by being severely flogged and even put to death. Nonetheless, the behavior encouraged by God between slave and their human owners is much less deadly and much more inspiring than the behavior that we see in high crime areas within the USA between law enforcing agents and many of the citizens they are paid to protect. The behavior between slaves and their owners encouraged by God within the New Testament is much less deadly and much more inspiring than the behavior that Libyans, Iraqis and Afghanistanians are having against each other and against their foreign and Americans liberators.

Now, those who make an accusation of being in favor of slavery against those who oppose women ordination are using a very shoddy political accusation that only deserves to be played within a very non spiritual American Political Establishment that is more interested in accomplishing a political agenda than in the success of the entire American nation. Those who wish to use politics and play with numbers in order to run ahead of God should be reminded that God’s blessings cannot be bought through political favors but those blessings will surely follow when advancing the kingdom of God within the human heart and mind takes first priority above anything else. Those who feel a great deal of admiration and wish to imitate how the American Political Establishment has brought political equality between white and black Americans while disregarding the teachings of love of our Lord Jesus Christ should take into consideration the very high number of black to black and white to white killings, the number of mass murder by demented individuals, the number of citizens killing themselves through suicide and drug addition and the number of American soldiers taking their own life just because of the spiritual emptiness within their soul.

To those who wish to fight for more “equality” between male and female roles within God’s work I want just to plead them to avoid trying to run ahead of God in His work of bringing His kingdom into our hearts and minds. This is because those who fall when running ahead of God will fall in the hands of the enemy and they will end up fighting on the side of the enemy against God in the fight that God is having against evil on this Earth since the fall of Adam and Eve.

FF

[olger]

Quote:

Now, those who make an accusation of being in favor of slavery against those who oppose women ordination are using a very shoddy political accusation that only deserves to be played within a very non spiritual American Political Establishment that is more interested in accomplishing a political agenda than in the success of the entire American nation.

I have echoed these sentiments for some time now. Thanks Felix.

oG

[CyberGuy]

If you listen to Ted Wilson on Hope. Looks like there could be another vote on womens ordaination in 2015 at the GC Session.

This movement is growing.

[teresaq]

The reason is that a Christian human mind is not only lead by spiritual concerns. It is also highly influenced by political concerns. We need to take into account that the Pacific Union is in a region of the USA where the political predominant influence in such place has tried very hard and has been very successful