Pacific Union and WO

[Overaged]

I haven't seen that at all. I've seen just the opposite.

Actually; you are right. That can go both ways.

I have no problem with that concept. lol, study the picture CAREFULLY.

[Woody]

I did and my answer remains the same.

[Overaged]

lol, I didn't say that for you to change your answer. I liked your answer.

[lazarus]

As far as I know, Adventists do not usually say "How many people are voting yes on this;" but rather, "What does the Bible ACTUALLY SAY on this?"

In the end, however, Adventists decide on what their Biblical positions is by voting. Opponents of WO have pointed to past votes to suggest that Unions should not be doing what they are doing now.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

As far as I know, Adventists do not usually say "How many people are voting yes on this;" but rather, "What does the Bible ACTUALLY SAY on this?"

In the end, however, Adventists decide on what their Biblical positions is by voting. Opponents of WO have pointed to past votes to suggest that Unions should not be doing what they are doing now.

Great; and so you have proved what? Most Adventists I know, and even non-Adventists still don't say "How many votes were there?' They ask "What does the Bible say?" If you don't, then I would suggest there is a serious problem.

[lazarus]

Great; and so you have proved what? Most Adventists I know, and even non-Adventists still don't say "How many votes were there?' They ask "What does the Bible say?" If you don't, then I would suggest there is a serious problem.

I'm talking about our decision-making as an organization. We ask what does the Bible say but in the end we vote!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Great; and so you have proved what? Most Adventists I know, and even non-Adventists still don't say "How many votes were there?' They ask "What does the Bible say?" If you don't, then I would suggest there is a serious problem.

I'm talking about our decision-making as an organization. We ask what does the Bible say but in the end we vote!

I'll leave that one with you...

[Tom Wetmore]

...As far as I know, Adventists do not usually say "How many people are voting yes on this;" but rather, "What does the Bible ACTUALLY SAY on this?"...

That certainly was not the case in the Session votes concerning WO. Much was made of the fact of the number of votes opposed and what people that that meant as an expression of God's will, etc. It is seen very much as the Biblical practice of casting lots.

What alternative would you suggest? A dictatorial approach of one person or small group of people declaring for all what the Bible says and issuing an edict that all must follow?

The bottom line is that the polity of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is a representative form of governance. That requires voting by the representatives to express the decisions of the represented.

[lazarus]

That certainly was not the case in the Session votes concerning WO. Much was made of the fact of the number of votes opposed and what people that that meant as an expression of God's will, etc.

Indeed.

[lazarus]

I'll leave that one with you...

I'm a bit slow tonight. What do you mean?

[Stan]

can someone show where they laid hands on someone to ordain them? I only read of laying hands on the ill..

[Overaged]

can someone show where they laid hands on someone to ordain them? I only read of laying hands on the ill..

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

...As far as I know, Adventists do not usually say "How many people are voting yes on this;" but rather, "What does the Bible ACTUALLY SAY on this?"...

That certainly was not the case in the Session votes concerning WO. Much was made of the fact of the number of votes opposed and what people that that meant as an expression of God's will, etc. It is seen very much as the Biblical practice of casting lots.

What alternative would you suggest? A dictatorial approach of one person or small group of people declaring for all what the Bible says and issuing an edict that all must follow?

The bottom line is that the polity of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is a representative form of governance. That requires voting by the representatives to express the decisions of the represented.

I think everyone here knows full well that sometimes the vote happens without the question on what does the Bible say? To try to cast my statements re this question in the light of Adventists not asking this question is simply mis-stating the facts.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Stan

can someone show where they laid hands on someone to ordain them? I only read of laying hands on the ill..

[Woody]

Quote:

I think everyone here knows full well that sometimes the vote happens without the question on what does the Bible say?

Well - I may not be 'everyone' but I am someone and this someone does not know that.

As a church organization when we vote we ALWAYS ask what would Jesus do - or what does scripture say if it does say anything on the issue.

As for me - I fear you brush too broad of a stroke.

[Overaged]

Woody! You have double-liked two of my likes in one day! Amazing! lol. Must be something in the air, "eh?"

[Woody]

Woody! You have double-liked two of my likes in one day! Amazing! lol. Must be something in the air, "eh?"

Make it 3:

[Overaged]

Quote:

I think everyone here knows full well that sometimes the vote happens without the question on what does the Bible say?

Well - I may not be 'everyone' but I am someone and this someone does not know that.

As a church organization when we vote we ALWAYS ask what would Jesus do - or what does scripture say if it does say anything on the issue.

As for me - I fear you brush too broad of a stroke.

Sometimes you need a double-wide brush my friend.

[Overaged]

Thanks! lol

[Woody]

Thanks! lol

Is there ANYthing you don't have a photo for?

[Overaged]

LOL, not much

[Tom Wetmore]

I think everyone here knows full well that sometimes the vote happens without the question on what does the Bible say? To try to cast my statements re this question in the light of Adventists not asking this question is simply mis-stating the facts.

I am not sure I follow you... You interjected the issue by saying "As far as I know, Adventists do not usually say 'How many people are voting yes on this;' but rather, 'What does the Bible ACTUALLY SAY on this?'"

I was responding directly to that. And indeed the church does vote on matters of doctrine and our collective understanding of what we believe the Bible says. That is how the Fundamental Beliefs have been approved. That is an important function of the Church when it meets in Session. Voting is and will continue to be a vital part of this whole process of working through this issue.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I think everyone here knows full well that sometimes the vote happens without the question on what does the Bible say? To try to cast my statements re this question in the light of Adventists not asking this question is simply mis-stating the facts.

I am not sure I follow you... You interjected the issue by saying "As far as I know, Adventists do not usually say 'How many people are voting yes on this;' but rather, 'What does the Bible ACTUALLY SAY on this?'"

I was responding directly to that. And indeed the church does vote on matters of doctrine and our collective understanding of what we believe the Bible says. That is how the Fundamental Beliefs have been approved. That is an important function of the Church when it meets in Session. Voting is and will continue to be a vital part of this whole process of working through this issue.

I wasn't really trying to refute that the church does vote on doctrinal beliefs. I was trying to remind that the votes would never take place without first going to the Bible. Adventists don't just vote on a belief. There is a lot of Bible study which FIRST goes into it. Or, it is supposed to.

And this is the whole crux of the matter; how that WO supporters seem to think that if they can just get enough people to vote their way; then it "must be truth." That is not how the church vote thing is supposed to work.

Everyone involved should very strictly say: "What does the Bible say;" rather than, "who can we pursuade to vote our way on this?"

[Tom Wetmore]

And the point that has been made repeatedly is that we have studied what the Bible says about this very issue from the very beginning of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. But at each juncture those in opposition that have been in control or leadership of the Church have ignored or suppressed any discussion or further action. Take for example, the 1881 GC Session action expressing approval of WO.

After EGW died the number of woman in ministry declined to until the 1970's when there was a renewed movement to encourage and recognize women in ministry. And again after much study and discussion and even scholarly research by the Biblical Research Institute further action was delayed/ suppressed by those in leadership that were opposed. In 1973 the Mohaven Council concluded that there was no Biblical obstacle to WO. Here is an AAW 20th anniversary report on it - http://www.aaw.cc/PDF_files/TAW_Vol_12_No_4-5_Sep-Oct_1993_Mohaven.pdf .

We are now on the eve of the 40th anniversary of that historic summit. Very little was ever even published about this and for the intervening years until quite recently there has been a well recognized, albeit tacitly understood, moratorium on any official Church publication or publishing house against publishing anything on the issue. That is why most of the books for or against WO and most of the articles about it have been by unofficial publications and publishing houses and supporting ministries that are not an official part of the denomination.

And now looking at the very action in question on this very thread on this forum the OP includes reference to a study committee of the Pacific Union and the action includes reference to its report given BEFORE the action was voted. The preamble to the recorded action includes specific Biblical and EGW references to introduce the basis of the action. And similarly the Columbia Union actions and the process underway includes a thorough study to determine what the Bible says before they vote on it next month.

That is why I am baffled at why at this late date after much discussion here on these forums and my posting links to numerous resources on the topic that you question if people now taking action have stopped to consider what the Bible says.

It is like we are living the nightmare portrayed in the movie Groundhog Day. Every time the topic comes up those in opposition want to restart the clock, resetting it at the very beginning as if there is no history to this at all. It is deja vu all over again.

Time to stop dithering, stand up, make a final decision, and move forward.

[Overaged]

That is why I am baffled at why at this late date after much discussion here on these forums and my posting links to numerous resources on the topic that you question if people now taking action have stopped to consider what the Bible says.

Time to stop dithering, stand up, make a final decision, and move forward.

I have made a final decision, and i do question the "Bible study" methods of supporters for WO on this thread.

It is my opinion, that this is about more than just WO.