CoAspen Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Hmmmm, not against WNM, but don't ordain. Is that what your are saying? I'm a tad bit confused! I thought the issue was very specific about ordaining of women vs men for ministry. Ministry, meaning pastors, etc, would include ordaining. If women are not to be, then some people are against WNM. That is, unless some wish to split hairs over ministry and its meaning. Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted June 14, 2012 Moderators Posted June 14, 2012 Do Pastors have that much in their bank accounts? All the pastors I know have over $1000 in the bank on the 15th and the 30th of the month. Might only be for about 30 minutes but its there !!!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Members phkrause Posted June 14, 2012 Members Posted June 14, 2012 Hmmmm, not against WNM, but don't ordain. Is that what your are saying? I'm a tad bit confused! I thought the issue was very specific about ordaining of women vs men for ministry. Ministry, meaning pastors, etc, would include ordaining. If women are not to be, then some people are against WNM. That is, unless some wish to split hairs over ministry and its meaning. I disagree that Ministry means just "Pastor." Don't each of us "minister" to someone? Like our families? Our neighbors? etc. Most if not all programs at church are called "ministries" are they not? They are not done by just the "pastor" are they. As a matter of fact I'd say that most of the "ministries" at any given church are lead by women! So I will repeat what I said before, I have not seen many that are against women being in ministry! and yes the subject is about women getting or being ordained! And there I do find many that are against WO, not women's ministries or women being in any kind of ministry in church. And I do not split hairs over this issue. I see those on both sides taking this very seriously, except for one or two, otherwise all pretty much have a legit opinion on how they feel. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
CoAspen Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Okay, but quite often people do not explain what they mean when 'key' words are used. Often the "I'm not against WNM" is used to confuse the issue or sidetrack. From my perspective and observation, those for WNM, most often associate ministry and ordination together and those with opposite view separate them. Then confusion abounds!!! Quote
Woody Posted June 15, 2012 Author Posted June 15, 2012 One argument I totally don't understand is: They can be a pastor - but they just can't be ordained. Huh???? How does that make any sense? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 15, 2012 Administrators Posted June 15, 2012 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore ... I'm not too sure what your point is... But I assume it is to suggest, as most opposed to women in ministry do in using this verse, Again, I don't see anyone against Women in ministry Tom. I see those that are not convinced that women should not be ordained. Actually I think there was one or two that did make rather crud comments about not wanting a women pastor. But in general most have no problem with women in ministry. Here is the problem. If one is called to and qualified for a position but cannot be ordained it is saying that there is in fact some reservation that does not fully and unreservedly recognize that, which is what ordination says about it. to me it is completely incongruous to be for women as pastors and still be unwilling to fully recognize them as pastors by ordaining them. And really, it truly is far more than just the few who have expressed themselves here as being against women as pastors. I have been discussing and following this issue closely for 40 years. And I have been discussing and debating this issue on internet forums (at least 8 separate forum sites) over the last 18+ years. The real issue against women in ministry reveals itself in their responses to WO. Many, if not most, of those stating they are against WO, seldom actually put forth any arguments about ordination itself. It is almost always about limitations on women's roles and activities in the church. Almost all of the scriptural evidence and EGW quotes are offered as proof against women functioning and serving in certain capacities, roles or offices of the church at all. Almost all of the commentary offered here says very little about ordination itself. Everyone draws the line at a role or activity they do not think a women should fulfill, regardless of ordination. That is why I refer to those opposed to women in ministry rather than just WO. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 15, 2012 Administrators Posted June 15, 2012 Originally Posted By: CoAspen Hmmmm, not against WNM, but don't ordain. Is that what your are saying? I'm a tad bit confused! I thought the issue was very specific about ordaining of women vs men for ministry. Ministry, meaning pastors, etc, would include ordaining. If women are not to be, then some people are against WNM. That is, unless some wish to split hairs over ministry and its meaning. I disagree that Ministry means just "Pastor." Don't each of us "minister" to someone? Like our families? Our neighbors? etc. Most if not all programs at church are called "ministries" are they not? They are not done by just the "pastor" are they. As a matter of fact I'd say that most of the "ministries" at any given church are lead by women! So I will repeat what I said before, I have not seen many that are against women being in ministry! and yes the subject is about women getting or being ordained! And there I do find many that are against WO, not women's ministries or women being in any kind of ministry in church. And I do not split hairs over this issue. I see those on both sides taking this very seriously, except for one or two, otherwise all pretty much have a legit opinion on how they feel. Pete, to me it seems disingenuous to redefine the word that way in response to the issue when everyone knows and everyone understands that the issue being faced is only about women in pastoral ministry. The church has long ago recognized and even allows for ordination to those kinds of ministry other than pastoral ministry that you mention. (However, there are indeed many who seriously wish and are seeking to turn back the clock on even those to prevent women from being elders, question ordaining female elders and deaconesses and serious discuss limitations on women in teaching and preaching roles.) Let's stop playing that game. We are talking about women in pastoral ministry. That is what is at issue. Let's not obfuscate the matter by redefining the terms. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Woody Posted June 15, 2012 Author Posted June 15, 2012 The title of this thread is WO - which is in reference to ordaining women as pastors. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
teresaq Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Originally Posted By: CoAspen I can't believe that the GC in session is the 'voice of God', that would simply mean we have a 'Pope by committee'....in my opinion. I do agree that no committee or individual is the voice of God. But the SDA church is definitely not a committee of one person as is the Pope. At least they sit down and a group of individuals vote, maybe not always to our liking. Our SDA president can not say on his own what is going to be OK or not OK. I do believe the Pope has the say all above whatever the RCC decides. I believe the college of cardinals advise the pope, that he speaks from that advice. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
olger Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 One argument I totally don't understand is: They can be a pastor - but they just can't be ordained. Huh???? How does that make any sense? It doesn't make sense. There are many ministries within the sphere of our women, and pastors and elders are not one of them. This is where the church got into trouble on this issue - by opening the door a crack. They underestimated the relentless nature of liberalism. To be consistent with Scripture, we will have to do as the Southern Baptist Convention did in 1998, and 2000. The sooner this happens, the better. Such a move, while painful for progressives will result in a unified formulation of faith that we can then present to the world. I believe we will be amazed at the women who appreciate this kind of courage and direction. All will know where we stand on this Biblical issue. This should be followed by meetings that encourage men to lead their families in a God-glorifying direction, and to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Repentance for those of us who have been too passive will follow. This will bless our wives, daughters, and most of all the church. rejoice always, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Members phkrause Posted July 8, 2012 Members Posted July 8, 2012 I believe the college of cardinals advise the pope, that he speaks from that advice. Good point teresaq Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
teresaq Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Originally Posted By: Woody One argument I totally don't understand is: They can be a pastor - but they just can't be ordained. Huh???? How does that make any sense? It doesn't make sense. There are many ministries within the sphere of our women, and pastors and elders are not one of them. This is where the church got into trouble on this issue - by opening the door a crack. They underestimated the relentless nature of liberalism. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
CoAspen Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Quote: What about the sons? Quick catch there....yes, what about them!! When is their mother no longer to lead them? Or was she ever to be in charge? Mother only over daughters? What? Not them either? Hmmmm, maybe the roles have been wrong all along? Men should be at home raising children!!! Oh, wait a minute, men are only in charge of 'spiritual' things, women all else!! Woman, know your place! From another post.... Quote: ....sphere of our women, ....whose women? Sounds like an ownership issue! When in doubt or with out rhyme or reason, just drag out the word 'liberalism'...got to love that tactic!! Carry on T! Quote
olger Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Stay cool brethren! A well ordered family will bless both sons and daughters. `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Woody Posted July 9, 2012 Author Posted July 9, 2012 Stay cool brethren! A well ordered family will bless both sons and daughters. `G Thanks for your concession G. But it is starting to sound like liberalism to me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
doug yowell Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Pete, to me it seems disingenuous to redefine the word that way in response to the issue when everyone knows and everyone understands that the issue being faced is only about women in pastoral ministry. Quote
Woody Posted July 27, 2012 Author Posted July 27, 2012 WO opponents have to get more and more sly in their opposition to gender equality. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
CyberGuy Posted August 5, 2012 Posted August 5, 2012 Two weeks from tomorrow the Pacific Union Conference votes to allow women to be ordained within Pacific Union. Quote Riverside CA
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 5, 2012 Administrators Posted August 5, 2012 Ger, between now and the PUC meeting will you pray with us for the Holy Spirit to be present at that meeting to guide in the outcome? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
olger Posted August 5, 2012 Posted August 5, 2012 sure Tom Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
olger Posted August 5, 2012 Posted August 5, 2012 I will also pray that the spirit of rebellion that is brewing in the NAD will be broken on the Rock of humility. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
teresaq Posted August 5, 2012 Posted August 5, 2012 I will also pray that the spirit of rebellion that is brewing in the NAD will be broken on the Rock of humility. That is certainly a good prayer that may have surprising results. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 5, 2012 Administrators Posted August 5, 2012 Perhaps it would be better that our prayers seek guidance and instruction from the Holy Spirit about what we as a people should do rather than seeking to instruct the Holy Spirit on what it should do. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
doug yowell Posted August 5, 2012 Posted August 5, 2012 Ger, between now and the PUC meeting will you pray with us for the Holy Spirit to be present at that meeting to guide in the outcome? The HOly Spirit is only "given to those who obey Him." Quote
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