Pacific Union and WO

[Woody]

Much accommodation has been made for those who want to have multiple wives and also for those who wish to beat their wives. Now it is time to stand up and do the RIGHT thing for our church.

[olger]

The brethren have recommended that converts to the faith (with multiple wives) separate from all but the first wife and support the rest till death. I like that sort of thing.

[Woody]

"recommended"

[Woody]

I "recommend" to you WO

[olger]

mmm-hmm

[Felix Florimon]

Speaking of 'political', custom would be more accurate, we need to remember that some of those against WO believe that a husband beating his wife is a sign of love. How would that not color their understanding of scripture?

The issue is not what some people do or say on either side of WO but what the Bible says. A husband beating his wife is against biblical doctrine stating: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church for we are members of his body. ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself” (Ephesians 5:25-33). Now, disobedience by some to treat their wives in the way God commands His children to do is not an excuse to disregard the whole Bible regarding how our spiritual leadership should be established within God’s church.

It is the job of God’s workers to be highly familiar and comply with the teachings found in the New Testament before they wish to advocate for any change within the church. The problem is that you are following the same political script of the American Political Establishment advocating for political equality between blacks and whites while ignoring Jesus’ teachings on how we should love one another and forgive one to another in the same way God forgives us for our sins. You know the end results within the American nation regarding the increase in violent behavior among people of the same race, suicides, self-killing through drug addiction, and the higher number of demented individuals doing mass killings. Personally, I don’t see any compelling reason of why we should be bringing in the same failure of the American Political Establishment in creating a better American nation to God’s people, the SDA Church, regarding how we need to do business within the church. Our blue-print regarding how to do business in our Church has already been established in the New Testament. It should not be based on how a misguided American Political Establishment has brought pain and failure within it own nation by disregarding the teachings of the Lord Jesus and His most immediate followers regarding how God expects us to interact among ourselves.

FF

[CoAspen]

That last paragraph lost me....blaming American Political Establishment for advocating equality and insinuating that brings on increased violence to equating that with churchs/peoples spiritual life. Sounds to me like you are doing the mixing of politics and religion!!!!

[Felix Florimon]

I have echoed these sentiments for some time now. Thanks Felix.

oG

Yes, it is very sad to observe how people feel so strongly motivated to use, within the SDA, Church the same political methods of the American Political Establishment that have brought shame, death, misery and an ever growing federal budget deficit to the American nation. We need to be reminded that California was one of the wealthiest states of the nation. However, at this time, California's projected budget deficit has ballooned to $16 billion, much larger than the $9.2 billion estimated in January, Gov. Jerry Brown said, and he warned of more painful spending cuts.

Personally, I strongly feel that we will always end up in an unwinnable fight against God when we try to show more kindness to our fellow humans than the kind of love that Jesus taught us we should have for all people.

FF

[Woody]

Quote:

love that Jesus taught us we should have for all people.

Are you including women as 'people'?

[Felix Florimon]

That last paragraph lost me....blaming American Political Establishment for advocating equality and insinuating that brings on increased violence to equating that with churchs/peoples spiritual life. Sounds to me like you are doing the mixing of politics and religion!!!!

The issue is not mixing of politics and religion. The real issue is human behavior and where there is real authority to shape it in a successful way. This is not about mixing politics and religion. This is what is the safest and best way to lead people’s lives.

Two thousand years before the current American Political Establishment advocated for equality, our Lord Jesus and His early followers taught that we are all equal in God’s eyes. The problem of The American Political Establishment is not its advocacy for “equality.” The problem of The American Political Establishment is its very unhealthy fantasy that such equality could be created and sustained independent of the teachings of our Creator through our Lord Jesus Christ.

FF

[Felix Florimon]

Quote:

love that Jesus taught us we should have for all people.

Are you including women as 'people'?

Could I be right if I sense that you are trying to ask “a loaded question?”

Of course women are included. I could not be able to type any post in this forum if I did not have a woman as my mother. I would feel very lonely on this Earth if I could not have a woman as a wife and mother of my children.

FF

[teresaq]

The issue is not what some people do or say on either side of WO but what the Bible says. .... Now, disobedience by some to treat their wives in the way God commands His children to do is not an excuse to disregard the whole Bible regarding how our spiritual leadership should be established within God’s church.

[teresaq]

....This is what is the safest and best way to lead people’s lives.

Two thousand years before the current American Political Establishment advocated for equality, our Lord Jesus and His early followers taught that we are all equal in God’s eyes. The problem of The American Political Establishment is not its advocacy for “equality.” The problem of The American Political Establishment is its very unhealthy fantasy that such equality could be created and sustained independent of the teachings of our Creator through our Lord Jesus Christ.

FF

I can agree with you.

But we still live in an evil world. Without our laws, and even tho they are not always enforced and lived, at least there is some equality, some protection.

[Woody]

Just a couple of hours folks. And the Pacific Union will be on it's way to doing what is right.

I am so proud of my church.

Let me just say that I was proud when the GC hired a woman pastor with ordained minister credentials as the Vice President of the GC. But now - the PUC will be catching up with the GC. I think each of these kinds of steps will be helpful in the cause.

May God be Glorified.

[Tom Wetmore]

I will also pray that the spirit of rebellion that is brewing in the NAD will be broken on the Rock of humility.

How was your prayer answered?

[teresaq]

I will also pray that the spirit of rebellion that is brewing in the NAD will be broken on the Rock of humility.

Sometimes we project our own rebellion and lack of humility onto others.

[olger]

Hi Tom. Several things convinced on Sunday me that rebellion is active in the PUC.

The very insulting interruption of the World President (Ted Wilson) by a female parlimentarian, and Castillo's insulting remarks, and finally the standing ovation at the end by the liberals. All very inappropriate.

And revealing.

[lazarus]

The very insulting interruption of the World President (Ted Wilson) by a female parlimentarian, and Castillo's insulting remarks, and finally the standing ovation at the end by the liberals. All very inappropriate.

And revealing.

Insulting? Curious. Are you saying that it's insulting for a parliamentarian to interrupt someone on a point of order or are you saying that its insulting because the GC president was interrupted. Was it worse becasue the parliamentarian was a female? I guess your argument would be that that there should not be female parliamentarians.

Castillo's remarks could have been presented with more finesse but hardly insulting. Is your objection that he spoke to the GC president directly when he should have addressed the chair?

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger, to what Laz has just said I would add that your opinion is quite a matter of subjective perception. The leaders of the Protestant Reformation were branded as more than merely rebellious. They were labeled as heretics for their firm opposition to earthly and man-made authority, rules and tradition.

Consider carefully the rude and insulting running commentary (including your own) on the "live blog" on your website posted during the proceedings and the follow-up commentary about the meeting and the issues. What is the apparent spirit in which those comments were offer?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: olger

The very insulting interruption of the World President (Ted Wilson) by a female parlimentarian, and Castillo's insulting remarks, and finally the standing ovation at the end by the liberals. All very inappropriate.

And revealing.

Insulting? Curious. Are you saying that it's insulting for a parliamentarian to interrupt someone on a point of order or are you saying that its insulting because the GC president was interrupted. Was it worse becasue the parliamentarian was a female? I guess your argument would be that that there should not be female parliamentarians.

I think Ger already answered that question in his own simultaneous running commentary of the meeting on his "live blog" - Ger said, "Elder Wilson was interrupted by a woman."

[olger]

Ger, to what Laz has just said I would add that your opinion is quite a matter of subjective perception. The leaders of the Protestant Reformation were branded as more than merely rebellious. They were labeled as heretics for their firm opposition to earthly and man-made authority, rules and tradition.

Consider carefully the rude and insulting running commentary (including your own) on the "live blog" on your website posted during the proceedings and the follow-up commentary about the meeting and the issues. What is the apparent spirit in which those comments were offer?

You are making that up.

[olger]

I think Ger already answered that question in his own simultaneous running commentary of the meeting on his "live blog" - Ger said, "Elder Wilson was interrupted by a woman."

Right.

The camera stayed on Elder Wilson so all we had was the audio.

[olger]

Points of reference on the live PUC webstream of last Sunday.

Ted Wilson being interrupted - 1:35:53

Castillo being defiant - 1:44-1:50 (in my opinion)

Standing Ovation at the vote announcement - 1:46:55

Ricardo Graham speaking about the North German Union - 4:23:20

Ricardo Graham asking for prayer - decides that it should be a woman - 4:23:38

Webstream can be found here - http://swankav.mediasite.com/mediasite/Play/4a7a9c98563f457cb4546b3852c5c2561d

[olger]

(Correction - Standing ovation at vote result - 4:26:45)

[Woody]

Quote:

The very insulting interruption of the World President (Ted Wilson) by a female parlimentarian, and Castillo's insulting remarks, and finally the standing ovation at the end by the liberals. All very inappropriate.

And revealing.

Pitting people against each other and placing them in catagories such as liberal and conservatives - just because they placed a vote that you might be in opposition against - is also inappropriate and revealing.