Nic Samojluk Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 skyblue888 wrote: “It seems to me that you, Nic, are asking us to take your uninspired interpretations of Scripture in regard to the trinity in the place of those inspired statements???!!!” My comments were directed at John. He was citing Ellen White in his dialogue with Gibs who is not an Adventist. We can’t do this. We need to establish every doctrine of the church on the Bible. Ellen White is not a recognized authority for non Adventists. I do believe that Ellen White was God’s instrument in building the Adventist Church. Nevertheless, I do not equate inspiration with infallibility. Mrs. White told us that only God is infallible, and she also said that there are truths to be discovered as a result of our study of the Bible. Quote
Nic Samojluk Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 skyblue888 wrote: "I am He" means "I am God" as shown in Isaiah 43:10,12. Yes, it means “I am God” in Isaiah, but you cannot conclude that it means “I am God” every time said expression is used. My major in College was English. You can ask any English teacher and he will tell you that the phrase “I am he” simply means “I am the person we are talking about.” It is an example of the use of the third person singular to refer to the first person. “What does this have to do with showing that the Holy Spirit is not God in the fullest sense and therefore a different person of the Godhead?” Did I ever suggest that the Holy Spirit is not God? Jesus said to the Samaritan woman: “God is Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is God indeed, since God is Spirit! The use of the term “spirit” or “Spirit” suggests that the manifestation is invisible to the naked eye. When God manifested himself in the Bible in a visible manner, the phrase “the angel of the Lord” was used, but when his presence was invisible, the term “Spirit” was employed. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 I do believe that Ellen White was God’s instrument in building the Adventist Church. Nevertheless, I do not equate inspiration with infallibility. Mrs. White told us that only God is infallible, and she also said that there are truths to be discovered as a result of our study of the Bible. Ellen White's writings are to be judged by the Bible because she is an extra-biblical prophet, but Ellen White was as inspired as Paul or Isaiah. There are not degrees of a prophet's inspiration. Either one is inspired or one is not inspired-- just like a person can't be partially pregnant. You are not inspired and neither am I, but we know that Ellen White was. Ellen White's statement means that the prophets of the Bible were also not infallible. As far as our friend Gibs is concerned, he does accept Ellen White as someone whom God used; and while it's true he is not SDA at the present time, he understands the position and work of Ellen White. Besides, I don't only write for Gibs but for everyone who comes on the Adventist forum. There's no question that doctrine is to be established by the Bible and that there are truths to be discovered as a result of our study of the Scriptures. The point to remember, though, is that the truths to be discovered will not contradict what God has already revealed and established by the Spirit of prophecy. Ellen White's statements on this subject don't mean she is saying the Holy Spirit will guide us to see that Ellen White was in error on things that God revealed to her. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Nic Samojluk Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 John317 wrote: “You misunderstand why I quote Ellen White. First of all, this is an Adventist forum where it is OK to quote the prophet of God.” I agree! But you were responding to a non Adventist. When discussing doctrinal questions with non Adventists we need to use the Bible only. Non Adventists do not consider Ellen White to be an authority. “Second, and most important, I don't quote her in order to prove a doctrine;” The issue being discussed is one of the doctrines of the church. “I quote her for one reason only: because it's important for SDAs to understand what Ellen White believed and wrote. After all, she was a prophet of God. She wrote the truth in plain English that needs no translation. If a person who claims to accept Ellen White as God's instrument doesn't accept it after they read it in her writings, they won't accept it from anyone irrespective of the evidence.” Yes, but this should be reserved to responses to Adventists. “QUESTION: Do you believe Ellen White wrote contrary to the Scriptures when it comes to the teaching regarding the Godhead/Trinity? I don't believe she did. I believe she agrees with the Scriptures on this.” I believe that Mrs. White’s writings were inspired, but I do not equate inspiration with infallibility. She told us that only God is infallible. She also told us that a few minor errors were introduced even into the manuscripts of the Bible by copyists. If we do have a few minor error even in the Bible, then why not in her writings? Do not forget that Ellen did borrow a lot of religious material from other authors. Should we be surprised that a few errors crept in into her writings? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 “Second, and most important, I don't quote her in order to prove a doctrine. Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk The issue being discussed is one of the doctrines of the church. You yourself sometimes quote Ellen White on abortion and other subjects. Does that mean you want people to believe abortion is wrong on the basis of what she wrote or said? Did I say you should believe in the Trinity on the basis of Ellen White? No. What I am saying is that you should know what Ellen White says about the topic. After all, Ellen White was a genuine prophet of God and is an authority in the SDA Church. Yes, we are discussing a doctrine in the church, but does that mean we can never quote what she wrote on any doctrinal matter? Maybe that's what it means to you, but it doesn't mean that to me or to other members of the SDA Church. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 Do not forget that Ellen did borrow a lot of religious material from other authors. Should we be surprised that a few errors crept in into her writings? And you could make the same argument about the Bible. Paul quotes pagan writers. Is it possible he let errors creep into his writings? Was Paul infallible? The Holy Spirit guided Ellen White in the selection of the writings she used. She used them selectively and with great discriminiation. She didn't simply copy people but she made their writings conform to what God had shown her. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 You misunderstand why I quote Ellen White. First of all, this is an Adventist forum where it is OK to quote the prophet of God. I agree! But you were responding to a non Adventist. Gibs is a former SDA, isn't he? It is not as if I am writing to someone totally unfamiliar with EGW. As I said, though, I write for the thousands of non-writing readers who visit the Forum. I don't only write for the original posters. I never use Ellen White's statements as authority when talking with people who I know are unfamiliar with her or who don't accept her authority. But if people have either quoted her themselves or are familiar with her, then I believe it's right to quote her. I believe Gibs falls into that category. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Great replies John. I couldn't have said it better. What makes you think that Gibs is a former adventist? Do you know that for sure? Do you see a member of an "independent" ministry as a former adventist? (not saying Gibs is) sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 I thought I remembered Gibs saying that he was once SDA, but maybe I'm wrong in this. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Nic Samojluk Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 John wrote: “Ellen White's writings are to be judged by the Bible because she is an extra-biblical prophet, but Ellen White was as inspired as Paul or Isaiah.” Yes, so my question is: Paul built his doctrine of God’s sovereignty on some biblical texts which state that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Most Adventists reject this doctrine. They rather believe that it was Pharaoh who hardened his heart. Do you agree with Paul or with most Adventists? “There are not degrees of a prophet's inspiration. Either one is inspired or one is not inspired-- just like a person can't be partially pregnant. You are not inspired and neither am I, but we know that Ellen White was.” Which biblical texts are more inspired: the ones who state that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh or those saying that Pharaoh hardened his heart? Are all of these texts equally inspired? There's no question that doctrine is to be established by the Bible and that there are truths to be discovered as a result of our study of the Scriptures. The point to remember, though, is that the truths to be discovered will not contradict what God has already revealed and established by the Spirit of prophecy. Ellen White's statements on this subject don't mean she is saying the Holy Spirit will guide us to see that Ellen White was in error on things that God revealed to her. You must have read the following statements by Ellen White regarding new light to be discovered as a result of the study of the Bible: Counsels to Writers and Editors God, but Not Infallible—We must not think, “Well, we have all the truth, we understand the ... pillars of our faith, and we may rest on this knowledge ... is an advancing truth, and we must walk in the increasing light. [33] Increased Light to Shine—A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, “We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.” But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God’s word for truth. “Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.” Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds [34] Many Gems Yet to Be Discovered—New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.—Counsels on Sabbath School Work, 34 (1892). Investigation of Doctrine—There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. [35] Many Gems Yet to Be Discovered—New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.—Counsels on Sabbath School Work, 34 (1892). Investigation of Doctrine—There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. [35] We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [p.37] Would-be Guardians of the Doctrine—The rebuke of the Lord will be upon those who would be guardians of the doctrine, who would bar the way that greater light shall not come to the people. [38] A Sign of Growth—Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus it will continue to the end. But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God’s word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion. The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what. [38-39] Quote
Nic Samojluk Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 John317 wrote: “You yourself sometimes quote Ellen White on abortion and other subjects. Does that mean you want people to believe abortion is wrong on the basis of what she wrote or said?” Yes, but not when responding to a non Adventist. Quote
Nic Samojluk Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 John317 wrote: “And you could make the same argument about the Bible. Paul quotes pagan writers. Is it possible he let errors creep into his writings?” He did. He built his doctrine of God’s absolute sovereignty on the basis of texts which state that it was God who hardened the heart of Pharaoh while ignoring the other texts which assert that it was Pharaoh who hardened his heart. Most Adventists reject Paul’s view on this. Do you? “Was Paul infallible?” No. I just submitted the evidence above. Even Peter said that Paul had some passages which are hard to understand. “The Holy Spirit guided Ellen White in the selection of the writings she used. She used them selectively and with great discrimination. She didn't simply copy people but she made their writings conform to what God had shown her.” If Paul was not infallible, how can you suggest that Ellen was infallible? She herself told us that only God is infallible, and she emphasized our need to study the Bible. If she was infallible, then what is the point of studying the Bible? Quote
Nic Samojluk Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Gibs is a former SDA, isn't he? It is not as if I am writing to someone totally unfamiliar with EGW. As I said, though, I write for the thousands of non-writing readers who visit the Forum. I don't only write for the original posters. I never use Ellen White's statements as authority when talking with people who I know are unfamiliar with her or who don't accept her authority. But if people have either quoted her themselves or are familiar with her, then I believe it's right to quote her. I believe Gibs falls into that category. Fine, but it seems to me that it is a waste of time to keep quoting Ellen White when responding to individuals who do not rely on her authority when dealing with the Trinity. Quote
Members phkrause Posted June 22, 2012 Members Posted June 22, 2012 If Paul was not infallible, how can you suggest that Ellen was infallible? She herself told us that only God is infallible, and she emphasized our need to study the Bible. If she was infallible, then what is the point of studying the Bible? Don't ever recall John ever saying that EGW was infallible! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted June 22, 2012 Members Posted June 22, 2012 Fine, but it seems to me that it is a waste of time to keep quoting Ellen White when responding to individuals who do not rely on her authority when dealing with the Trinity. Why? Gibs quotes her more than must! Especially when she agree's with him! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Gibs Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 PHK, Then I quote His Word like she said we should, the fountain and foundation for all truth and wisdom for man comes from Him, His Word to us. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Dr. Waite Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk You misunderstand why I quote Ellen White. First of all, this is an Adventist forum where it is OK to quote the prophet of God. I agree! But you were responding to a non Adventist. Gibs is a former SDA, isn't he? It is not as if I am writing to someone totally unfamiliar with EGW. As I said, though, I write for the thousands of non-writing readers who visit the Forum. I don't only write for the original posters. I never use Ellen White's statements as authority when talking with people who I know are unfamiliar with her or who don't accept her authority. But if people have either quoted her themselves or are familiar with her, then I believe it's right to quote her. I believe Gibs falls into that category. The purpose of the writings of Ellen White was not to take the place of the Bible, but is to give men and women straight testimonies bringing them back to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. That the Testimonies were not given to take the place of the Bible, the following extract from a testimony published in 1876 will show: {5T 663.1} "Brother J would confuse the mind by seeking to make it appear that the light God has given through the Testimonies is an addition to the word of God, but in this he presents the matter in a false light. God has seen fit in this manner to bring the minds of His people to His word, to give them a clearer understanding of it." [VOL. 4, P. 246 (1876).] The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the word of God their study are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the word that they have neglected to follow." [VOL. 2, P. 455 (1870).] The word of God abounds in general principles for the formation of correct habits of living, and the testimonies, general and personal, have been calculated to call their attention more especially to these principles." [VOL. 4, P. 323 (1879).] {5T 663.2} Quote grw
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2012 Moderators Posted June 23, 2012 Which biblical texts are more inspired: the ones who state that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh or those saying that Pharaoh hardened his heart? Are all of these texts equally inspired? Good question. The answer is, Yes. If you look carefully at these texts, you'll find that there is no actual contradiction but only an apparent one. Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the way he chose to respond to God's activity. God knew Pharoah's character and He knew how Pharoah would respond to His activity. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2012 Moderators Posted June 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk If Paul was not infallible, how can you suggest that Ellen was infallible? She herself told us that only God is infallible, and she emphasized our need to study the Bible. If she was infallible, then what is the point of studying the Bible? Don't ever recall John ever saying that EGW was infallible! You're absolutely right, pk. In fact, I've said that EGW was not infallible. Neither, for that matter, was Paul or Jeremiah. God alone is infallible. The Bible is God's infallible guide to salvation and knowledge of God, but the men who were inspired to write it were themselves fallible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2012 Moderators Posted June 23, 2012 The purpose of the writings of Ellen White was not to take the place of the Bible, but is to give men and women straight testimonies bringing them back to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. Yes, of course. And the Bible testimony on the Godhead/Trinity is quoted and discussed all the time on this Forum and on others when the subject comes up. Ellen White's quotes are also shown for the purpose of making plain what she taught on the topic. Her teachings are important for SDAs because we believe she was God's prophet and therefore taught in harmony with Scripture. Obviously if EGW taught contrary to the Bible, she was a false prophet. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2012 Moderators Posted June 23, 2012 Was Paul infallible? How does "hard to understand" EQUAL "wrong" or "uninspired" or "fallible"? Aren't there some things hard to understand in the Old Testament and in the Gospels as well? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Nic Samojluk Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Don't ever recall John ever saying that EGW was infallible! True! But if you read between the lines, you probably will reach said conclusion. He continually reaches to her writings for support of his views on doctrine. Here is one example: The Holy Spirit guided Ellen White in the selection of the writings she used. She used them selectively and with great discrimination. She didn't simply copy people but she made their writings conform to what God had shown her. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2012 Moderators Posted June 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: pkrause Don't ever recall John ever saying that EGW was infallible! True! But if you read between the lines, you probably will reach said conclusion. He continually reaches to her writings for support of his views on doctrine. Here is one example: The Holy Spirit guided Ellen White in the selection of the writings she used. She used them selectively and with great discrimination. She didn't simply copy people but she made their writings conform to what God had shown her. What is false about my statement? And how is it an attempt to prove doctrine by EGW? Are you suggesting that we shouldn't pay attention to EGW's writings or that we ought not to quote them? Don't you yourself quote her on questions where she agrees with you-- such as on abortion? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Nic Samojluk Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Fine, but it seems to me that it is a waste of time to keep quoting Ellen White when responding to individuals who do not rely on her authority when dealing with the Trinity. Why? Gibs quotes her more than must! Especially when she agree's with him! I also quote Ellen White sometimes, but I wouln't do this when responding to someone who does not consider her to be an authority on the doctrine in dispute. Using her writings under such circumstances is a waste of time. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 23, 2012 Moderators Posted June 23, 2012 I also quote Ellen White sometimes, but I wouln't do this when responding to someone who does not consider her to be an authority on the doctrine in dispute. Using her writings under such circumstances is a waste of time. I'll decide when it's a waste of time for me to quote authorities. I won't attempt tell you when to quote or not to quote. Let's get back to the main topic. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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