Is the doctrine of the Trinity logically incoherent?

[skyblue888]

Yes, through the Holy Spirit. We are even told that God the Father and Christ are working in nature through the Holy Spirit.

"Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.' John 5:17." P.P.114.

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand." Education,132.

sky

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Does the Father convict? teach? lead? guide? speak? will?

Does the Father have the ability to be "omnipresent"?

If the answer is yes, could the Father and the Holy Spirit be one and the very same person and being?

The Father convicts and teaches, ec., through the Holy Spirit. Christ said that it was the Holy Spirit, "another Helper" of the same kind as Christ, who would guide and teach us. He did not say the Father would come Himself personally in order to guide and teach Christ's followers.

Yes, the Father speaks and wills, and He is a person. Those are things that only persons are able to do.

The Father is Omnipresent through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not have a form or a body, whereas both the Father and Son have forms and a body. Christ has a glorified, material, human body.

Both the Father and the Son are in the heavenly sanctuary. The Son and the Father come to us and are in us through Christ's personal representative, the Holy Spirit.

The Father who is the only true God (John 17:3) and inherently has the ability to be omnipresent without the help of any other person or being otherwise he would not be fully God. Omnipresence is one of the characteristics that define the only true God who is the Father of Jesus Christ and who has no other being as his God.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Ellen White says plainly that the Holy Spirit is "a divine person," and "the Third person of the Godhead." The Bible teaches the same thing. Do you disagree with Ellen White's statement?”

I do not see the Bible teaching the same thing!

“The Bible evidence is that the Holy Spirit is a person, just as God the Father is a person. The Holy Spirit "convicts," "teaches," "leads," "guides," "speaks," "wills," etc. These are all actions of persons.”

The Bible evidence is that God is a Spirit and that he is Holy. If God’s Spirit is another person separated from God, then our human spirit is also a separate person from us. Read what the Bible says about this:

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” [Rom. 8:16]

In this verse we find a specific reference to God’s Spirit and to our spirit. We Adventist do not believe that our spirit is a separate entity implanted in our body at birth which is able to survive after death. If we deny this Catholic dogma, why is it that we allow this dichotomy between God and his Spirit?

Can’t we see that Catholics borrowed this from the Platonic pagan dualistic philosophy?

If the Holy Spirit is a separate entity apart from God, then such entity deserves our worship. Can you find a case in the Bible where the Holy Spirit was the object of worship?

If God is Spirit, what need is there for a separate entity called Holy Spirit? God is Spirit and can be present everywhere at the same time.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“John 14 and 16 make this very clear. Jesus promised He would go to heaven and send "another Helper" to be with each of the believers. He said the Father would send the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't say the Father would come. Both Jesus and the Father come to us through the Holy Spirit, Christ's personal representative.”

I think that you are missing what Jesus promised to his disciples. Notice how he explained this:

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus said: “You know him for he lives with you.” Who was living with the disciples? It was Jesus! Then he added: [he] “will be in you.” Who do we tell our children that lives in us? Jesus! And finally he further clarified this when he said: “I will come to you.” Who would come to them in a spiritual and physically invisible form? Jesus himself.

“I believe the Holy Spirit is actually God Himself.”

In this I fully agree with you! The Holy Spirit is God himself. There is no dichotomy between God and his Spirit. There is no need to invent a third person. God is Spirit. He is already a Spirit.

No need for this Platonic dualistic dichotomy between God and his Spirit and the Catholic dualistic separation between our physical entity and our alleged spirit which can survive after we die. The Trinity dogma was borrowed from paganism and it is build on Plato’s philosophy based on dualism.

[doug yowell]

Jesus is the Father in a human body? So when the Father talked to Jesus after His baptism saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," He was talking to Himself?

...while at the same time forming His influence into a dove like mass of matter which landed on Him in order to testify that He was actually the Son of the One who was,in fact, Himself. And later on asking Himself not to allow Himself to go thru the sufferings that He had ordained for Himself to go thru and answering Himself with silence resulting in Himself asking Himself why He had forsaken Himself? What do we call a human that acts like that?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Jesus is the Father in a human body? So when the Father talked to Jesus after His baptism saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," He was talking to Himself?

...while at the same time forming His influence into a dove like mass of matter which landed on Him in order to testify that He was actually the Son of the One who was,in fact, Himself. And later on asking Himself not to allow Himself to go thru the sufferings that He had ordained for Himself to go thru and answering Himself with silence resulting in Himself asking Himself why He had forsaken Himself? What do we call a human that acts like that?

:)

[Gibs]

Tell it to Paul then, read,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Then tell it to Jesus, read,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

It is not too hard to see, in the beginning Yahweh gave of himself our Redeemer long before Bethlehem. One of His substance, not born, not created but a part of Himself sent to do all creation plus all the hosts and if sin rose up it was that Redeemers job to take care of.

In the beginning the council was between His Redeemer and Himself. Just as the Father and Redeemer conversed then why do you think it is not possible at His baptism.

The deity vested in Him went to the grave with Him and raised Him. Deity in Him did not die. Can God the eteral one be killed or die? No Way!

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The man Jesus Christ died but Deity in Him did not!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE: "The man Jesus Christ died but Deity in Him did not!"

So, then a part of Jesus Christ did not die and, in other words, He did not fully die.

Revelation 1:18 "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"

So, if a part of Jesus Christ did not die or if he did not fully die, is Jesus Christ a liar or a sinner? OR, is the person who said "[the]Deity in Him did not [die]!" a sinner?

Regarding Matthew 16:22 - "Peter was naturally forward and impulsive, and Satan had taken advantage of these characteristics to lead him astray. When Jesus had opened before his disciples the fact that he must go to Jerusalem to suffer and die at the hands of the chief priests and scribes, Peter had presumptuously contradicted his Master, saying, "Be it far from thee, Lord; this shall not be unto thee." He could not conceive it possible that the Son of God should be put to death. Satan suggested to his mind that if Jesus was the Son of God he could not die. Just prior to the fall of Peter, Jesus had said to him, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." That period had now come, and the transformation wrought in Peter was evident. The close, testing questions of the Lord had not provoked one forward, self-sufficient reply; and because of his humiliation and repentance he was better prepared than ever before to fill the office of shepherd to the flock." {3SP 231.1}

Is this quote the same suggestion that Satan made to the mind of Peter - "The man Jesus Christ died but Deity in Him did not!" ??

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite,

" 6 (John 1:1-3, 14; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:6, 8; 2:14-17; Hebrews 4:15).

"Deity Did Not Die.--Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. {5BC 1113.2}

The Father that was vested in Him went to the grave with Him and was the power and the life which raised Him.

The total of the Son of God and man died. But how could Deity be killed? Impossible!

You and Allen Stump need to get together as he can't get it in his mind to realize Deity cannot and did not die. He heads up Smyrna ministries and preached that for yrs that Deity died.

There is some that hold with him but not many here in our locale.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

Gibs: EGW quote: ""Deity Did Not Die", You added to what she said and stated that the Deity in Him did not die"

When Jesus died did humanity (human race) die?

When Jesus died did divinity (divine race) die?

If the "Deity within Him did not die" would it not be the same as stating that the immortal soul of Jesus did not, but only the mortal body died?

[Gibs]

Yes Dr. Waite, The Father was in Christ and when Jesus the man and yet being the Son of God, the Father in Him did not die but the human Son of God died. Yes His mortal body died, the body prepared that He would come and dwell in.

As far as the soul of any of us dying when this body dies it goes back to God to be raised at resurrection 1 or 2. The body dies the soul, spirit only of the damned of the second will die to never be no more. Jesus no doubt has a soul as we do plus the Father dwelt in Him. The one of the Father before Bethlehem who was brought forth before anything else. That one is and was of the Father's pre existant eternal substance. Remember He is not limited that He cannot be what He needs to be for our salvation.

That blending of humanity and Divinity is a mystery we do not understand in this dispensation. It will come though after resurrection # 1.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

The Father who is the only true God (John 17:3) and inherently has the ability to be omnipresent without the help of any other person or being otherwise he would not be fully God. Omnipresence is one of the characteristics that define the only true God who is the Father of Jesus Christ and who has no other being as his God.

Excellent argument!

[skyblue888]

As far as the soul of any of us dying when this body dies it goes back to God to be raised at resurrection 1 or 2. The body dies the soul, spirit only of the damned of the second will die to never be no more. Jesus no doubt has a soul as we do plus the Father dwelt in Him. The one of the Father before Bethlehem who was brought forth before anything else. That one is and was of the Father's pre existant eternal substance. Remember He is not limited that He cannot be what He needs to be for our salvation.

Gibs

__________

The phrase, "The one of the Father before Bethlehem who was brought forth before anything else. That one is and was of the Father's pre existant eternal substance."

So you are saying that Christ was not alays a distinct Person of the Godhead but that at some time in the eternity of the past He was brought forth.

But inspiration does not say that.

"Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity. God over all, blessed forevermore. (Rom.5:9) The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father." EGW Bible Commentary, Vol.5,1126.

sky

[Gibs]

From EGW,

"Jesus, with startling emphasis, denied that the Jews were following the example of Abraham. Said he, "Ye do the deeds of your father." The Pharisees, partly comprehending his meaning, said, "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." But Jesus answered them: "If God were your Father, ye would love me; for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." The Pharisees had turned from God, and refused to recognize his Son. If their minds had been open to the love of God, they would have acknowledged the Saviour who was sent to the world by him. Jesus boldly revealed their desperate condition:-- {ST, October 23, 1879 par. 17}

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

( since it was God in Christ, who is left but the Father, God in Christ is the Father in Christ.)

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. (Yes Really!)

We know there can only be one first, means before any other. So when Jesus declares He is the first it has to be the case He and His Father are truly one, "one substance".

There is but one Supreme Deity!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He represents to us through His Son, and by Spirit as He Primarily is Spirit, we would perish in His Presence.

De 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Counsels on Health. 1923; 2002 (222). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

White, E. G. (1946; 2002). Evangelism (615). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gibs]

Gerry if you read my post above yours you would see the Son is of the Father and The Holy Spirit is God. 1 John 5:7 is correct,

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You might rightly say Jesus Christ is another person. What must be reaized is the fact The Father dwells in Him and so is God, not another but The One and Only God there is with us, in the man Mary was to name Jesus, and Emmuel He was to be called, meaning God with us. Matt 1:23.

Yes 1 John 5:7 is correct, these 3 are the one and only God, I know of no other and neither does Isaiah.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[troyjs]

Jonah,

You are correct in both of your premises, however it seems you misunderstand the doctrine of the Trinity.

A fundamental concept which is helpful, is the theological concept of perichoresis.

Perichoresis is the interpenetration of different elements, which unites them so that they are distinct, but not separate. For example:

Consider 3 buckets of water at 100 degrees C. Pour all of the water from those buckets into a larger bucket, and what is the temperature? --- it is not 300 degrees C, but still 100 degrees C.

Although the larger bucket is '3' in one logically distinct way, ie., the volume is logically distinct as 3 elements, the 'addition' or composition of the elements does not alter the numeral value of the Temperature. Classically, the Trinity is conceived as being 1 in essence, but 3 in hypostases/persons.

If The doctrine of the Trinity was that God is one in person, and 3 in person, then that would be illogical. However, very early on in Christianity, there was a fundamental distinction made between the persons of the Trinity, and how they maintain their 'oneness' in unity.

Furthermore, for Christ to be the Son, means that He is the Son of Father. The identity of the Son logically and mediately refers to the identity of the Father. When we refer to the Son immediately by the name of 'the Son', or 'Christ', we are mediately referring to the other persons of the Trinity. Likewise with all of the persons when we refer to them immediately. When we refer to the Spirit, we mediately are referring to the Father and Son who send the Spirit. They are logically distinct from each other, but they are inseparable logically. The meanings of the terms we use to refer to them, also makes it impossible for us to conceive of a logically possible world where one of the persons exist, and the others do not exist. If the 'Father of the Son who sends the Spirit' exists, then this logically entails that the Son and the Spirit exist as well. They are so united in essence, that the existence of one entails the existence of te others, but they are logically distinct from each other.

As others have already said, the doctrine of the Trinity is founded on logically compatible doctrines:

That there is only 1 God

That the Father, Son, and Spirit are by nature God.

That the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct from each other.

There is no logical contradiction between these doctrines, and in union, they teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

[Gustave]

Jonah,

You are correct in both of your premises, however it seems you misunderstand the doctrine of the Trinity.

A fundamental concept which is helpful, is the theological concept of perichoresis.

Perichoresis is the interpenetration of different elements, which unites them so that they are distinct, but not separate. For example:

Consider 3 buckets of water at 100 degrees C. Pour all of the water from those buckets into a larger bucket, and what is the temperature? --- it is not 300 degrees C, but still 100 degrees C.

Although the larger bucket is '3' in one logically distinct way, ie., the volume is logically distinct as 3 elements, the 'addition' or composition of the elements does not alter the numeral value of the Temperature. Classically, the Trinity is conceived as being 1 in essence, but 3 in hypostases/persons.

If The doctrine of the Trinity was that God is one in person, and 3 in person, then that would be illogical. However, very early on in Christianity, there was a fundamental distinction made between the persons of the Trinity, and how they maintain their 'oneness' in unity.

Furthermore, for Christ to be the Son, means that He is the Son of Father. The identity of the Son logically and mediately refers to the identity of the Father. When we refer to the Son immediately by the name of 'the Son', or 'Christ', we are mediately referring to the other persons of the Trinity. Likewise with all of the persons when we refer to them immediately. When we refer to the Spirit, we mediately are referring to the Father and Son who send the Spirit. They are logically distinct from each other, BUT they are inseparable logically. The meanings of the terms we use to refer to them, also makes it impossible for us to conceive of a logically possible world where one of the persons exist, and the others do not exist. If the 'Father of the Son who sends the Spirit' exists, then this logically entails that the Son and the Spirit exist as well. They are so united in essence, that the existence of one entails the existence of te others, but they are logically distinct from each other.

As others have already said, the doctrine of the Trinity is founded on logically compatible doctrines:

That there is only 1 God

That the Father, Son, and Spirit are by nature God.

That the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct from each other.

There is no logical contradiction between these doctrines, and in union, they teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

Finally! Where have you been!

[troyjs]

Gustave,

If you want some meaty theology, I would recommend to you John Calvin's 'Institutes of the Christian Religiion', and John Owen's 'Christologium', and, 'Pneumalogium'.

In regards to the 'Pneumalogium, it has been said that John Owen proves the personality and divinity of the Holy Spirit from the Old Testament, that one wonders whether he ever read the New Testament -- and when he begins to speak about the Holy Spirit as written of in the New Testament, one wonders how he ever had the time to have read the Old Testament.

More relevant, you may be interested in His discussion in, 'A Brief Declaration and Vindication of the Doctrine of the Trinity'.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/trinity

For a good and informing podcast, I recommend:

The White Horse Inn,

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/

The Reformed Forum,

http://reformedforum.org/

and

The Dividing Line, at aomin.org

The program called, 'Philosophy for Theologians' may be of interest to you at 'Reformed Forum'.

Kind regards

[Gerr]

Gerry if you read my post above yours you would see the Son is of the Father and The Holy Spirit is God. 1 John 5:7 is correct,

Yes, I read your post; that's why I replied to it. Just what do you mean that Christ is "of the Father?" And I understand by your posts that the Holy Spirit is the same person as the Father? As I understand it, you acknowledge the existence of the Father, Son, & HS, but you consider them as three different manifestations of the same person? Correct me if I misunderstand your position.

Quote:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[color:blue

Does this mean they are one and the same person? I am sure that you are aware that the earliest manuscripts do not have this verse, and would not seriously use it for proof text for or against.

[skyblue888]

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Counsels on Health. 1923; 2002 (222). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

White, E. G. (1946; 2002). Evangelism (615). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

John317 and I have quoted these many times. Thank you Gerry for bringing them to our attention again. You would think that these statements alone would convince anyone.

sky

[skyblue888]

From EGW,

"Jesus, with startling emphasis, denied that the Jews were following the example of Abraham. Said he, "Ye do the deeds of your father." The Pharisees, partly comprehending his meaning, said, "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." But Jesus answered them: "If God were your Father, ye would love me; for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." The Pharisees had turned from God, and refused to recognize his Son. If their minds had been open to the love of God, they would have acknowledged the Saviour who was sent to the world by him. Jesus boldly revealed their desperate condition:-- {ST, October 23, 1879 par. 17}

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

( since it was God in Christ, who is left but the Father, God in Christ is the Father in Christ.)

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. (Yes Really!)

We know there can only be one first, means before any other. So when Jesus declares He is the first it has to be the case He and His Father are truly one, "one substance".

There is but one Supreme Deity!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He represents to us through His Son, and by Spirit as He Primarily is Spirit, we would perish in His Presence.

De 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, how can the words of Jesus, "I and My Father are one," possibly mean that He and the Father are the same Person!

Are we not doing violence to the words of Jesus in order to get a different meaning that would have us believe that they are not two distinct Persons?

Lately you have been quoting profusely from the SoP in regard to the subject of overcoming. You have been using these statements as authoritative, as coming from God. But on the subject of the trinity it is a different story. The SoP speaks of the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the Godhead. It also says that Christ and the Father are two distinct Personages.

If you will not accept these statements about the Godhead as inspired, why do you accept the ones about overcoming as insipred?

Fair question?

sky :)

[skyblue888]

"Christ is one with the Father, but Christ and God are two distinct personages." 5 B.C.1148.

And here are two statements regarding the Holy Spirit being the Third Person of the Godhead:

"Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and royalty. He determined to give His representative, the Third Person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation." EGW Bible Commentary, Vol.6,1053.

And as concerning the work of overcoming, we read,

"Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty Agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power... to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress Christ's own character upon the church." D.A.671.

Are not these statements just as inspired as the ones you have been quoting lately on the subject of overcoming and if they are then the Holy Spirit is certainly a distinct Person of the Godhead as the others are.

sky

[Gibs]

Sky, Fair question, and my answer,

Jesus says so and EGW sees it too, read,

"Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). Does not that say that I and My Father are one?" {FW 75.3}

"I and My Father are one," Christ declared. "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." John 10:30; Matthew 11:27. {MH 419.2}

I and my Father are one. John 10:30. {RC 39.1}

"As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. The outshining of the Father's glory, "and the express image of his person" (Hebrews 1:3), Jesus, as a personal Saviour, came to the world. As a personal Saviour He ascended on high. As a personal Saviour He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Before the throne of God in our behalf ministers "one like unto the Son of man" (Revelation 1:13). {RC 39.2}

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes".--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

"But the Pharisees could not conceal their anger. As if filled with holy horror, they began to reason, saying, "Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sin, but God alone?" But it was the Son of the living God who had uttered the words, "Thy sins be forgiven thee." Had not the Pharisees been blinded by prejudice, they would have seen that he who was before them was the Christ, and that he was in the Father, and the Father in him. "I and my Father are one," he declared". {RH, August 15, 1899 par. 9}

You see, the Father was in the body of the man prepared that He would dwell. So in that Jesus is another personage of one of us, yes and yet God with us. But Jesus could rightly state, "I and my Father are one".

Sky, I had made the following statement to Gerry and maybe you read, I hope,

Gerry if you read my post above yours you would see the Son is of the Father and The Holy Spirit is God. 1 John 5:7 is correct,

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You might rightly say Jesus Christ is another person. What must be reaized is the fact The Father dwells in Him and so is God, not another but The One and Only God there is with us, in the man Mary was to name Jesus, and Emmuel He was to be called, meaning God with us. Matt 1:23.

Yes it is solidly true, Father Yahweh gave of Himself and is and was the Deity in our Redeemer Jesus Christ. His very person was in Him.

His uncovered Presence would destroy sin and sinners, so He comes to us in His Mediator and by Spirit as He is Spirit without annilhilating us.

Yes 1 John 5:7 is correct, these 3 are the one and only God, I know of no other and neither does Isaiah.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, I have already read these statements and obviously I do not see what you see in them that would make me think that Christ and the Father are the same Person!

You did not address these statements:

"Christ is one with the Father, but Christ and God are two distinct personages." 5 B.C.1148.

"Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and royalty. He determined to give His representative, the Third Person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation." EGW Bible Commentary, Vol.6,1053.

And as concerning the work of overcoming, we read,

"Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty Agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power... to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil and to impress Christ's own character upon the church." D.A.671.

sky