Is the doctrine of the Trinity logically incoherent?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

If the Holy Spirit is not a Person, then what is He? a mere impersonal essence?

The Holy Spirit is God's invisible presence and influence on those who have accepted Jesus Christ.

My question is, again, Is this Influence a mere impersonal essence or rather an unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Biblical doctrine must be firmly rooted in God’s word—not on Ellen White’s writings! Ellen insisted that we go to the Bible in our search for doctrinal truth.

But we as Adventists have every right to quote Ellen White to each other, as the purpose of the Spirit of Prophecy is to prevent the Church from falling into false doctrine.

Since Ellen White does not contradict the Bible Nic, and was a true prophet of God, you are required to also prove your position on the Godhead from her writings when speaking to another Adventist. Since she does not contradict the Bible, and only sheds light upon the Bible, then you need to explain what she means by the statements that John is providing, and you need to take the time to show what Ellen White's true position was on the Godhead by taking in the totality of her writings.

Scriptures of course must be the foundation, but we are living in the last days when the Spirit of Prophecy is necessary to fine-tune our understanding of the Scriptures, and this is precisely what Ephesians 4:11-16 emphasizes.

Amen to that.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person?

Weak argument. Where in the Bible does it say, in plain words, "Jesus is a person"? Or "God the Father is a person?"

This is not very intelligent dialogue on your part.

Excellent point Lysi.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

skyblue888 wrote:

"There are Three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Spirit; and these Three are one." 1 John 5:7.

Have you ever read the NIV note regarding this passage of Sripture?

Footnotes:

a 7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Did you know that no serious theologian uses this text to support the Trinity doctrine?

And lo, Nic comes along and thinks he's offered the conclusion to this long-winded debate!

Nic, seriously. Theologians have been debating this for centuries, and none have reached an ultimatum yet. There is no proof whatsoever that 1 John 5:7 was added. It is only speculated based on the fact that they can't find it in earlier manuscripts.

Do a google search, and you will find ENDLESS debates on this passage.

When Ellen White said, "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." (Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)) -- there is no doubt she is alluding to 1 John 5:7.

Right on again

sky

[skyblue888]

All this higher criticism is mere philosophy. If one can discard one passage because it does not harmonize with a private interpretation, then why not discard other passages of Scriptures for similar reasons, or re-write them or claim that they were unauthorized?

sky

[Gibs]

This one above all must not be discarded,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Holy Spirit then is the one and only God and not another God, Jesus said that one and if any can not be controverted that one must stand or you must throw out the whole Bible.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

ESV‎‎ Re 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

Three separate persons, all named YAHWEH.

[Gibs]

Gerry,

I don't see how the Holy Spirit is another Person when He is declared to be God, The Holy Spirit is God, there isn't two persons here.

Yahweh was and is in Christ and Christ the body, man prepared that that Yah. would dwell is another person.

Yahweh is a Spirit Our Lord tells us, so there is not a trinity and Jesus was actually God with us in a body of flesh, humanity, 3 representations of the one and only true God there is and ever will be, in but 2 persons.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“But we as Adventists have every right to quote Ellen White to each other”

Yes! I do quote her, except when she has deviated from what the Bible teaches. A good example is her teaching that Jesus did not go into the immediate presence of God until 1844. Hebrews states that Jesus did sit next to God the Father following his ascension to heaven.

If Ellen White is the final arbiter between truth and error and the infallible interpreter of the Bible, than why did she insist that we go to the Bible in search for doctrinal truth?

“Since Ellen White does not contradict the Bible Nic, and was a true prophet of God, you are required to also prove your position on the Godhead from her writings when speaking to another Adventist.”

She does contradict the Bible sometimes. I gave you an example above. Do we have two set of doctrines: one for Adventists and another for non-Adventists? Did Ellen ever claim infallibility for her writings? If she did, why her insistence that we must study the Bible and why did she tell us that there are truths which we need to discover?

True prophets sometimes need to be corrected. David’s imprecatory Psalms are a good example. Such prayers for vengeance do contradict Jesus who ordered us to love even our enemies!

Another example is Paul’s teaching about God’s sovereignty. Do you accept his teaching about God’s right to harden the heart of Pharaoh in order to show his power on him?

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus wrote:

“But we as Adventists have every right to quote Ellen White to each other”

Yes! I do quote her, except when she has deviated from what the Bible teaches. A good example is her teaching that Jesus did not go into the immediate presence of God until 1844. Hebrews states that Jesus did sit next to God the Father following his ascension to heaven.

[jacksdad]

Sorry if this is too long - its the first time I'm writing, but felt I had to say what I said.

I am so thankful to God for the way He led me when I became an SDA, so as to never need to question the inspiration of EGW. After 5 years of praying 3 to 5 hours/day, pleading with God to lead me to the truth, He did. and the day after I surrendered, Union Carbide responded to a resume I sent out a year earlier. I took the job and moved - next door to an SDA pastor, studied and was baptized and in the ministry within three years. retiring 2 years ago and writing the book The Omega Rebellion at the same time.

When I met my pastor/neighbor, he gave me a copy of The Great Controversy, telling me the author was a prophet - I was polite, but said to myself after 5 years of reading nothing but false prophet's, Oh no, not another one. I put the book on the shelf and we went ahead holding 2 Bible studies/week. I surrendered and accepted the Lord after having the phenomenal experience of being led by the Holy Spirit into all the truth we have in the SDA church. It was incredible to experience the Spirit's leading as I learned what the scripture was really teaching. It was an experience where my mind was opened point by point, by the Holy

Spirit. After a few months of studies, and having this unbelievable experience with the Spirit's leading in my mind, one night while praying I had a frightening experience where my mind would not think correctly. Just when I was about to stand up in fear, the Lord spoke to me - no voice, just thoughts, and said, "Rick, you prayed for the truth and I led you. For 5 years you read one false prophet after another, now, my servant Pastor John gave you The Great Controversy, written by a true prophet, and this book, you won't read." I knew I had to read it and finished it in three days.

The most incredible thing was that whatever spirit had been leading me as I learned the truth in the Bible studies, I knew was the very same spirit that was leading me as I read The Great Controversy. There was no question it was the Holy Spirit who led EGW - NO QUESTION!. I KNEW IN MY HEART IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have never doubted since.

I feel sad for the people who question her writings, as they do. The truth is that they have never surrendered and egotistically think they are smarter than the rest of us, who are simple intellectual infants, and that we blindly accept her writings. Their problem - THEY DOUBT AND QUESTION AS THEY DO BECAUSE THEY LACK THE WITNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS. If they will not let go of self, I fear that some day they will stand before the Lord and He will say, "Depart from me ye workers of in iniquity, I knew you not."

It is really the height of arrogance to question inspiration, in the way some do, always finding something to question and never becoming convinced of her inspiration, or trying to re-define what inspiration is so they can twist things the way they want to. What I believe is happening, is that these poor souls can't stop finding fault in EGW's writings because they just want to do things their own way - believe the way they want and make God be the way they want him to be. They make gods of their own devising; gods who will allow them to practice religion the way they want to practice religion. They create their gods, with the character they want him to have.

This is what is behind the spiritual formation movement and why those who practice it, can never defend their actions with the Spirit of Prophecy. They can't because it condemns the practice, so they are left with no other way to defend themselves, than to discredit and find fault with the Spirit of Prophecy, or personally attack those who exposed the deception, freeing them from its restrictions and allowing them to do what they want. Sadly, they perfectly fit the description of the rebellious in Israel, as described in Isaiah chapter 30, having gone back to Egypt (Babylon today) because their church did not profit them, or allow them to practice religion the way they wanted. Sad, sad situation.

It has always been the same and is why the Lord led me to write The Omega Rebellion. The end time omega deception is for those who will not "heed the warnings God has given" in the Spirit of Prophecy, and is why some argue against its inspiration.

God help them.

Jacksdad

[Lysimachus]

Sorry if this is too long - its the first time I'm writing, but felt I had to say what I said.

I am so thankful to God for the way He led me when I became an SDA, so as to never need to question the inspiration of EGW. After 5 years of praying 3 to 5 hours/day, pleading with God to lead me to the truth, He did. and the day after I surrendered, Union Carbide responded to a resume I sent out a year earlier. I took the job and moved - next door to an SDA pastor, studied and was baptized and in the ministry within three years. retiring 2 years ago and writing the book The Omega Rebellion at the same time.

When I met my pastor/neighbor, he gave me a copy of The Great Controversy, telling me the author was a prophet - I was polite, but said to myself after 5 years of reading nothing but false prophet's, Oh no, not another one. I put the book on the shelf and we went ahead holding 2 Bible studies/week. I surrendered and accepted the Lord after having the phenomenal experience of being led by the Holy Spirit into all the truth we have in the SDA church. It was incredible to experience the Spirit's leading as I learned what the scripture was really teaching. It was an experience where my mind was opened point by point, by the Holy

Spirit. After a few months of studies, and having this unbelievable experience with the Spirit's leading in my mind, one night while praying I had a frightening experience where my mind would not think correctly. Just when I was about to stand up in fear, the Lord spoke to me - no voice, just thoughts, and said, "Rick, you prayed for the truth and I led you. For 5 years you read one false prophet after another, now, my servant Pastor John gave you The Great Controversy, written by a true prophet, and this book, you won't read." I knew I had to read it and finished it in three days.

The most incredible thing was that whatever spirit had been leading me as I learned the truth in the Bible studies, I knew was the very same spirit that was leading me as I read The Great Controversy. There was no question it was the Holy Spirit who led EGW - NO QUESTION!. I KNEW IN MY HEART IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have never doubted since.

I feel sad for the people who question her writings, as they do. The truth is that they have never surrendered and egotistically think they are smarter than the rest of us, who are simple intellectual infants, and that we blindly accept her writings. Their problem - THEY DOUBT AND QUESTION AS THEY DO BECAUSE THEY LACK THE WITNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS. If they will not let go of self, I fear that some day they will stand before the Lord and He will say, "Depart from me ye workers of in iniquity, I knew you not."

It is really the height of arrogance to question inspiration, in the way some do, always finding something to question and never becoming convinced of her inspiration, or trying to re-define what inspiration is so they can twist things the way they want to. What I believe is happening, is that these poor souls can't stop finding fault in EGW's writings because they just want to do things their own way - believe the way they want and make God be the way they want him to be. They make gods of their own devising; gods who will allow them to practice religion the way they want to practice religion. They create their gods, with the character they want him to have.

This is what is behind the spiritual formation movement and why those who practice it, can never defend their actions with the Spirit of Prophecy. They can't because it condemns the practice, so they are left with no other way to defend themselves, than to discredit and find fault with the Spirit of Prophecy, or personally attack those who exposed the deception, freeing them from its restrictions and allowing them to do what they want. Sadly, they perfectly fit the description of the rebellious in Israel, as described in Isaiah chapter 30, having gone back to Egypt (Babylon today) because their church did not profit them, or allow them to practice religion the way they wanted. Sad, sad situation.

It has always been the same and is why the Lord led me to write The Omega Rebellion. The end time omega deception is for those who will not "heed the warnings God has given" in the Spirit of Prophecy, and is why some argue against its inspiration.

God help them.

Jacksdad

That is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. Thank you for sharing Jacksdad!

I agree 100%.

People will be tempted to think that we are placing Ellen White's writings as equal with the Bible, but this is simply because they are unwilling to understand what Ellen White really means by proving all things from the Bible. The fact is, anything she says doctrinally, can, and always will be proven from the Bible. Keep looking, and you'll find it. It's happened so many times for me. She says something, and I ask myself, "how on earth could this ever be proven from the Bible?", and so I keep searching, and bam! Many times I find verses from the rare Old Testament books--and then I say---ah! That's where she got it from! Or the Holy Spirit impressed her to write something that was already in the Bible, yet she herself did not know it was written there! Now that proves her to be inspired!

We as professed Adventists have every right, and duty, to employ the Spirit of Prophecy on each other. For worldlings out there, and non-Adventists, we cannot do this. We must use the Scriptures only. But if we only use the Bible on one another, basically, if you really think about it, the Spirit of Prophecy becomes good for nothing. It was written for what??

Testimonies for what???

Answer: For the Church! Testimonies for the Church!

If we can't use Ellen White on one another, then I guess her writings weren't for the Church, now were they? lol

We must be willing to be HEWED by the prophets! To start questioning her inspiration is to start entering into forbidden territory, without chart or compass. We're then able to pick and choose what we like from the Spirit of Prophecy.

[12tribes]

Sorry if this is too long - its the first time I'm writing, but felt I had to say what I said.

I am so thankful to God for the way He led me when I became an SDA, so as to never need to question the inspiration of EGW. After 5 years of praying 3 to 5 hours/day, pleading with God to lead me to the truth, He did. and the day after I surrendered, Union Carbide responded to a resume I sent out a year earlier. I took the job and moved - next door to an SDA pastor, studied and was baptized and in the ministry within three years. retiring 2 years ago and writing the book The Omega Rebellion at the same time.

When I met my pastor/neighbor, he gave me a copy of The Great Controversy, telling me the author was a prophet - I was polite, but said to myself after 5 years of reading nothing but false prophet's, Oh no, not another one. I put the book on the shelf and we went ahead holding 2 Bible studies/week. I surrendered and accepted the Lord after having the phenomenal experience of being led by the Holy Spirit into all the truth we have in the SDA church. It was incredible to experience the Spirit's leading as I learned what the scripture was really teaching. It was an experience where my mind was opened point by point, by the Holy

Spirit. After a few months of studies, and having this unbelievable experience with the Spirit's leading in my mind, one night while praying I had a frightening experience where my mind would not think correctly. Just when I was about to stand up in fear, the Lord spoke to me - no voice, just thoughts, and said, "Rick, you prayed for the truth and I led you. For 5 years you read one false prophet after another, now, my servant Pastor John gave you The Great Controversy, written by a true prophet, and this book, you won't read." I knew I had to read it and finished it in three days.

The most incredible thing was that whatever spirit had been leading me as I learned the truth in the Bible studies, I knew was the very same spirit that was leading me as I read The Great Controversy. There was no question it was the Holy Spirit who led EGW - NO QUESTION!. I KNEW IN MY HEART IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have never doubted since.

I feel sad for the people who question her writings, as they do. The truth is that they have never surrendered and egotistically think they are smarter than the rest of us, who are simple intellectual infants, and that we blindly accept her writings. Their problem - THEY DOUBT AND QUESTION AS THEY DO BECAUSE THEY LACK THE WITNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS. If they will not let go of self, I fear that some day they will stand before the Lord and He will say, "Depart from me ye workers of in iniquity, I knew you not."

It is really the height of arrogance to question inspiration, in the way some do, always finding something to question and never becoming convinced of her inspiration, or trying to re-define what inspiration is so they can twist things the way they want to. What I believe is happening, is that these poor souls can't stop finding fault in EGW's writings because they just want to do things their own way - believe the way they want and make God be the way they want him to be. They make gods of their own devising; gods who will allow them to practice religion the way they want to practice religion. They create their gods, with the character they want him to have.

This is what is behind the spiritual formation movement and why those who practice it, can never defend their actions with the Spirit of Prophecy. They can't because it condemns the practice, so they are left with no other way to defend themselves, than to discredit and find fault with the Spirit of Prophecy, or personally attack those who exposed the deception, freeing them from its restrictions and allowing them to do what they want. Sadly, they perfectly fit the description of the rebellious in Israel, as described in Isaiah chapter 30, having gone back to Egypt (Babylon today) because their church did not profit them, or allow them to practice religion the way they wanted. Sad, sad situation.

It has always been the same and is why the Lord led me to write The Omega Rebellion. The end time omega deception is for those who will not "heed the warnings God has given" in the Spirit of Prophecy, and is why some argue against its inspiration.

God help them.

Jacksdad

[12tribes]

That is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. Thank you for sharing Jacksdad!

I agree 100%.

People will be tempted to think that we are placing Ellen White's writings as equal with the Bible, but this is simply because they are unwilling to understand what Ellen White really means by proving all things from the Bible. The fact is, anything she says doctrinally, can, and always will be proven from the Bible. Keep looking, and you'll find it. It's happened so many times for me. She says something, and I ask myself, "how on earth could this ever be proven from the Bible?", and so I keep searching, and bam! Many times I find verses from the rare Old Testament books--and then I say---ah! That's where she got it from! Or the Holy Spirit impressed her to write something that was already in the Bible, yet she herself did not know it was written there! Now that proves her to be inspired!

We as professed Adventists have every right, and duty, to employ the Spirit of Prophecy on each other. For worldlings out there, and non-Adventists, we cannot do this. We must use the Scriptures only. But if we only use the Bible on one another, basically, if you really think about it, the Spirit of Prophecy becomes good for nothing. It was written for what??

Testimonies for what???

Answer: For the Church! Testimonies for the Church!

If we can't use Ellen White on one another, then I guess her writings weren't for the Church, now were they? lol

We must be willing to be HEWED by the prophets! To start questioning her inspiration is to start entering into forbidden territory, without chart or compass. We're then able to pick and choose what we like from the Spirit of Prophecy.

[Dr. Waite]

How does Ellen White say we should decide what is truth?

"15-19 (Joshua 24:15). Decision to Be Based on Evidence.--It is not the plan of God to compel men to yield their wicked unbelief. Before them are light and darkness, truth and error. It is for them to decide which to accept. The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. God designs that men shall not decide from impulse, but from weight of evidence, carefully comparing scripture with scripture (Redemption: or the Miracles of Christ, pp. 112, 113). {1BC 1120.5}"

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

“Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person?”

Lysimachus responded:

“Weak argument. Where in the Bible does it say, in plain words, "Jesu s is a person"? Or "God the Father is a person?" This is not very intelligent dialogue on your part.”

My answer:

Jesus lived and interacted with his disciples for three years and a half and you are asking for a Bible text proving that he was a person? Does your question reveal a higher level of intelligence than mine?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

skyblue888 wrote:

"There are Three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Spirit; and these Three are one." 1 John 5:7.

Have you ever read the NIV note regarding this passage of Sripture?

Footnotes:

a 7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Did you know that no serious theologian uses this text to support the Trinity doctrine?

And lo, Nic comes along and thinks he's offered the conclusion to this long-winded debate!

Nic, seriously. Theologians have been debating this for centuries, and none have reached an ultimatum yet. There is no proof whatsoever that 1 John 5:7 was added. It is only speculated based on the fact that they can't find it in earlier manuscripts.

Do a google search, and you will find ENDLESS debates on this passage.

When Ellen White said, "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." (Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)) -- there is no doubt she is alluding to 1 John 5:7.

Do you consider Ellen White's writings as the infallible interpreter of doctrinal truth? If yes, then why did she tell us that there are new truths to be discovered in the Bible?

[Lysimachus]

Do you consider Ellen White's writings as the infallible interpreter of doctrinal truth? If yes, then why did she tell us that there are new truths to be discovered in the Bible?

Forgive me, but you seem to be suggesting that "new truths" will somehow "replace" or "negate" previous revealed truths?

Nic, all new truth that will be discovered from the Bible will never replace old light. It will only enhance it, and add to it.

[Gerr]

I am a firm believer in the authentic prophetic ministry of EGW, but Dr. Waite has a point. The witness of the HS to each person is very subjective. Another person could be led by another spirit and claim to be spirit-led and contradict what another spirit-led person is saying. Therefore, we have to used something objective to settle what is truth.

[Gibs]

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[OzarkWoman]

Sorry if this is too long - its the first time I'm writing, but felt I had to say what I said.

I am so thankful to God for the way He led me when I became an SDA, so as to never need to question the inspiration of EGW. After 5 years of praying 3 to 5 hours/day, pleading with God to lead me to the truth, He did. and the day after I surrendered, Union Carbide responded to a resume I sent out a year earlier. I took the job and moved - next door to an SDA pastor, studied and was baptized and in the ministry within three years. retiring 2 years ago and writing the book The Omega Rebellion at the same time.

When I met my pastor/neighbor, he gave me a copy of The Great Controversy, telling me the author was a prophet - I was polite, but said to myself after 5 years of reading nothing but false prophet's, Oh no, not another one. I put the book on the shelf and we went ahead holding 2 Bible studies/week. I surrendered and accepted the Lord after having the phenomenal experience of being led by the Holy Spirit into all the truth we have in the SDA church. It was incredible to experience the Spirit's leading as I learned what the scripture was really teaching. It was an experience where my mind was opened point by point, by the Holy

Spirit. After a few months of studies, and having this unbelievable experience with the Spirit's leading in my mind, one night while praying I had a frightening experience where my mind would not think correctly. Just when I was about to stand up in fear, the Lord spoke to me - no voice, just thoughts, and said, "Rick, you prayed for the truth and I led you. For 5 years you read one false prophet after another, now, my servant Pastor John gave you The Great Controversy, written by a true prophet, and this book, you won't read." I knew I had to read it and finished it in three days.

The most incredible thing was that whatever spirit had been leading me as I learned the truth in the Bible studies, I knew was the very same spirit that was leading me as I read The Great Controversy. There was no question it was the Holy Spirit who led EGW - NO QUESTION!. I KNEW IN MY HEART IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have never doubted since.

I feel sad for the people who question her writings, as they do. The truth is that they have never surrendered and egotistically think they are smarter than the rest of us, who are simple intellectual infants, and that we blindly accept her writings. Their problem - THEY DOUBT AND QUESTION AS THEY DO BECAUSE THEY LACK THE WITNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS. If they will not let go of self, I fear that some day they will stand before the Lord and He will say, "Depart from me ye workers of in iniquity, I knew you not."

It is really the height of arrogance to question inspiration, in the way some do, always finding something to question and never becoming convinced of her inspiration, or trying to re-define what inspiration is so they can twist things the way they want to. What I believe is happening, is that these poor souls can't stop finding fault in EGW's writings because they just want to do things their own way - believe the way they want and make God be the way they want him to be. They make gods of their own devising; gods who will allow them to practice religion the way they want to practice religion. They create their gods, with the character they want him to have.

This is what is behind the spiritual formation movement and why those who practice it, can never defend their actions with the Spirit of Prophecy. They can't because it condemns the practice, so they are left with no other way to defend themselves, than to discredit and find fault with the Spirit of Prophecy, or personally attack those who exposed the deception, freeing them from its restrictions and allowing them to do what they want. Sadly, they perfectly fit the description of the rebellious in Israel, as described in Isaiah chapter 30, having gone back to Egypt (Babylon today) because their church did not profit them, or allow them to practice religion the way they wanted. Sad, sad situation.

It has always been the same and is why the Lord led me to write The Omega Rebellion. The end time omega deception is for those who will not "heed the warnings God has given" in the Spirit of Prophecy, and is why some argue against its inspiration.

God help them.

Jacksdad

It is egotistical for anyone to arrogantly think they know that because someone may or may not question Ellen White that they are not spiritual or "lack the Holy Spirit in their heart".

[Gibs]

Oz Woman,

We are to question all things to see if they are true by His Word to us. How would one know if she was a true messenger of God or not unless they saw from the Bible she was true to it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

Lysimachus wrote:

“Forgive me, but you seem to be suggesting that "new truths" will somehow "replace" or "negate" previous revealed truths? Nic, all new truth that will be discovered from the Bible will never replace old light. It will only enhance it, and add to it.”

Have you read the following passage recently?

Counsels to Writers and Editors, Page 35

Investigation of Doctrine—There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.

Ellen White clearly states that Adventist have held certain doctrines as truth which are in error.

[phkrause]

Sorry if this is too long - its the first time I'm writing, but felt I had to say what I said.

I am so thankful to God for the way He led me when I became an SDA, so as to never need to question the inspiration of EGW. After 5 years of praying 3 to 5 hours/day, pleading with God to lead me to the truth, He did. and the day after I surrendered, Union Carbide responded to a resume I sent out a year earlier. I took the job and moved - next door to an SDA pastor, studied and was baptized and in the ministry within three years. retiring 2 years ago and writing the book The Omega Rebellion at the same time.

When I met my pastor/neighbor, he gave me a copy of The Great Controversy, telling me the author was a prophet - I was polite, but said to myself after 5 years of reading nothing but false prophet's, Oh no, not another one. I put the book on the shelf and we went ahead holding 2 Bible studies/week. I surrendered and accepted the Lord after having the phenomenal experience of being led by the Holy Spirit into all the truth we have in the SDA church. It was incredible to experience the Spirit's leading as I learned what the scripture was really teaching. It was an experience where my mind was opened point by point, by the Holy

Spirit. After a few months of studies, and having this unbelievable experience with the Spirit's leading in my mind, one night while praying I had a frightening experience where my mind would not think correctly. Just when I was about to stand up in fear, the Lord spoke to me - no voice, just thoughts, and said, "Rick, you prayed for the truth and I led you. For 5 years you read one false prophet after another, now, my servant Pastor John gave you The Great Controversy, written by a true prophet, and this book, you won't read." I knew I had to read it and finished it in three days.

The most incredible thing was that whatever spirit had been leading me as I learned the truth in the Bible studies, I knew was the very same spirit that was leading me as I read The Great Controversy. There was no question it was the Holy Spirit who led EGW - NO QUESTION!. I KNEW IN MY HEART IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have never doubted since.

I feel sad for the people who question her writings, as they do. The truth is that they have never surrendered and egotistically think they are smarter than the rest of us, who are simple intellectual infants, and that we blindly accept her writings. Their problem - THEY DOUBT AND QUESTION AS THEY DO BECAUSE THEY LACK THE WITNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS. If they will not let go of self, I fear that some day they will stand before the Lord and He will say, "Depart from me ye workers of in iniquity, I knew you not."

It is really the height of arrogance to question inspiration, in the way some do, always finding something to question and never becoming convinced of her inspiration, or trying to re-define what inspiration is so they can twist things the way they want to. What I believe is happening, is that these poor souls can't stop finding fault in EGW's writings because they just want to do things their own way - believe the way they want and make God be the way they want him to be. They make gods of their own devising; gods who will allow them to practice religion the way they want to practice religion. They create their gods, with the character they want him to have.

This is what is behind the spiritual formation movement and why those who practice it, can never defend their actions with the Spirit of Prophecy. They can't because it condemns the practice, so they are left with no other way to defend themselves, than to discredit and find fault with the Spirit of Prophecy, or personally attack those who exposed the deception, freeing them from its restrictions and allowing them to do what they want. Sadly, they perfectly fit the description of the rebellious in Israel, as described in Isaiah chapter 30, having gone back to Egypt (Babylon today) because their church did not profit them, or allow them to practice religion the way they wanted. Sad, sad situation.

It has always been the same and is why the Lord led me to write The Omega Rebellion. The end time omega deception is for those who will not "heed the warnings God has given" in the Spirit of Prophecy, and is why some argue against its inspiration.

God help them.

Jacksdad

Great post jacksdad

[John317]

PK, John317, then you must do something with this statement from Jesus,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Christ is talking about coming to this earth from heaven. He isn't explaining how he came into existence in heaven. Christ's words also don't deny that He came to this earth voluntarily. Christ's point is those verses is that He wasn't here on his own, apart from the Father's plans. Christ came here as a man as a result of the plan of salvation which was devised by all three Persons of the Godhead. See CH 222.