Is the doctrine of the Trinity logically incoherent?

[John317]

... I think an old hillbilly knows 3 ain't one but knows the 3 representations of Him are of The But One.

Gibs, no one here is saying Three gods are one God. We're saying Three Persons are one God, just like 12 disciples were "one" and just like two people are "one flesh" in God's eyes. Christ said He and the Father are "one," yet they are two divine Persons. It is the same with the entire Godhead-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are "one God" because they are one in nature, character, and purpose, but not in person.

I think an old hillbilly is capable of understanding this.

[John317]

The notion that one being can be three persons is logically incoherent. It is nonsense.

Yes, that would indeed be nonsense if it was what SDAs believe and teach. But it isn't what we believe and teach. We teach that a single God consists of three Persons, or three Beings. There are some Trinitarians who believe God is a single Being, but SDAs aren't among them. We believe that God is Three divine Persons, or three divine Beings, who have one and the same essence, or substance. These are co-equal and co-eternal. There is one Godhead, and that Godhead consists of Three living Persons, who Ellen White called "the great Threefold power" and "the Three great Worthies."

Here's Ellen White's statement on that point:

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do,

-268-

I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

[John317]

I have posted the scriptures that prove it many times here, but you for a large share ignore them and they don't ring up in your computers.

We saw those scriptures, and they are good ones, Gibs. The problem is that you are evidently ignoring or dismissing the clear Scriptures and EGW passages on the topic, and relying on inference and conjecture to support the belief that God is a single, solitary Person. For instance, nowhere does the Bible or EGW say that the pre-incarnate Christ had a beginning, yet you infer this from verses such as Prov. 8:22ff, even though your inference is contradicted by both the Bible and EGW, which say Christ is "self-existent," "the perfect image of [the Father's] Person," part of the eternal Godhead, and has been in close fellowship with the eternal God "from all eternity."

You do the same with regard to the Holy Spirit. Sure, there are some verses which by themselves seem to indicate that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person; but to draw this conclusion, one must dismiss many clear Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divine Person and "the Third Person of the Godhead," One who feels pity for the human race and who gave Himself to the planning of man's redemption.

You've said that the Trinity makes no sense, but then you accept a view that requires you to make nonsense of such verses as Acts 1: 2, which teaches that before He went back to heaven, Jesus Christ "gave commandments to His disciples through the Holy Spirit." Now, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person, this verse would mean that Jesus Christ gave commandments through Jesus Christ.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I have posted the scriptures that prove it many times here, but you for a large share ignore them and they don't ring up in your computers.

We saw those scriptures, and they are good ones, Gibs. The problem is that you are evidently ignoring or dismissing the clear Scriptures and EGW passages on the topic, and relying on inference and conjecture to support the belief that God is a single, solitary Person. For instance, nowhere does the Bible or EGW say that the pre-incarnate Christ had a beginning, yet you infer this from verses such as Prov. 8:22ff, even though your inference is contradicted by both the Bible and EGW, which say Christ is "self-existent," "the perfect image of [the Father's] Person," part of the eternal Godhead, and has been in close fellowship with the eternal God "from all eternity."

You do the same with regard to the Holy Spirit. Sure, there are some verses which by themselves seem to indicate that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person; but to draw this conclusion, one must dismiss many clear Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divine Person and "the Third Person of the Godhead," One who feels pity for the human race and who gave Himself to the planning of man's redemption.

You've said that the Trinity makes no sense, but then you accept a view that requires you to make nonsense of such verses as Acts 1: 2, which teaches that before He went back to heaven, Jesus Christ "gave commandments to His disciples through the Holy Spirit." Now, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person, this verse would mean that Jesus Christ gave commandments through Jesus Christ.

[Gibs]

PK, John317, then you must do something with this statement from Jesus,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Now you see like EGW states, the Father gave of Himself. His Substance.

"With what firmness and power he uttered these words. The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, "Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?" {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}

He wasn't another pre-existent God, but THE ONE AND ONLY GOD sent Him out of Himself. He wasn't born and He wasn't created.

Then at Bethlehem He dwelt in the body prepared for Him, and so was God with us, Emmanuel. He was name Jesus as the angel instructed them to name Him.

And for sure, it is true,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The Father possessed Him of His own pre-existent substance.

So of course He too was eternal but not another God but THE GOD who possessed Him.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

John 8:42

Jesus said unto them,

If God were your Father, ye would love me: for

I proceeded forth and came from God; (His first birth as God's Only Begotten Son)

neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (His second birth at Bethlehem).

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gibs, with commentary

John 8:42

Jesus said unto them,

If God were your Father, ye would love me: for

I proceeded forth and came from God; (His first birth as God's Only Begotten Son)

neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (His second birth at Bethlehem).

We could be making the same mistake as others do, namely Jehovah's Witnesses who also teach that Christ is a "lesser god" because He said to the Jews, "My Father is greater than I." John 14:28.

Why can't two individuals, especially if they are imbued with the Spirit of Christ, say of each other that the other is greater? Is that not the spirit of humility which is the Spirit of the Gospel? Are not Christians to esteem others better than themselves?

"... but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem others better than himself." Phil.2:3.

Is this not the Spirit of Christ who said, "My Father is greater than I?" John 14:28; Phil.2:3.

The Apostle Paul was certainly imbued with that kind of a mind. Though he was greater than all of the apostles, yet he said, "for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing." 2 Cor.12:11.

Jehovah's Witnesses build their false doctrine that Jesus is not equal with the Father based on passages of Scriptures that they do not understand aright. By taking this position they have no other choice but to change other passages of Scripture to make them harmonize with their private interpretations. We all know about John 1:1 which states that Christ is God in the highest sense but to the Jehovah's Witnesses, it is unacceptable. So the words "The Word was God," they have changed for "and the Word was a god."

As a human being Jesus had a beginning but as a divine Being He always was.

"Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct Person, yet one with the Father." E.G. White, 5 B.C.1126.

See Romans 9:5 and Hebrews 1:8,9.

neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (His second birth at Bethlehem).

Gordon, the apostle Peter in Acts 13:33 quotes the words of Psalm 2:7 and applies them to the resurrection of Christ, not to Bethlehem.

What say you?

sky

[Gerr]

No trinity, no trinity, you must sell elsewhere, no buy here, you be wasting your time.

Mind is closed, folks. Confusing him with fact is just wasting your time.

[Woody]

Quote:

Mind is closed, folks. Confusing him with fact is just wasting your time.

I've noticed that in a number of places on the forum with this poster.

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE:

"We could be making the same mistake as others do, namely Jehovah's Witnesses who also teach that Christ is a "lesser god" because He said to the Jews, "My Father is greater than I." John 14:28."

Does the general conference of SDA who created fundamental beliefs #2, 3, 4, and 5 make this mistake when they teach that God the Father has within himself the attribute of being omnipresent but Jesus Christ the only begotten divine Son of God does not have this attribute within himself, but has to use a third divine being who they call "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" who has this attribute within himself??

[skyblue888]

Whether the Father or Christ they both are omnipresent through the Holy Spirit.

[Dr. Waite]

Whether the Father or Christ they both are omnipresent through the Holy Spirit.

If the Father or Christ does not inherently have omnipresence (has to use another being to be omnipresent) then they would not be inherently "fully God". Omnipresence is an attribute which defines "GOD".

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite, Sky,

I see both your statements are correct!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Jonah]

Interesting. So SDAs believe God is three beings. So what really do we mean by 'God'?

Originally Posted By: Jonah

The notion that one being can be three persons is logically incoherent. It is nonsense.

Yes, that would indeed be nonsense if it was what SDAs believe and teach. But it isn't what we believe and teach. We teach that a single God consists of three Persons, or three Beings. There are some Trinitarians who believe God is a single Being, but SDAs aren't among them. We believe that God is Three divine Persons, or three divine Beings, who have one and the same essence, or substance. These are co-equal and co-eternal. There is one Godhead, and that Godhead consists of Three living Persons, who Ellen White called "the great Threefold power" and "the Three great Worthies."

Here's Ellen White's statement on that point:

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do,

-268-

I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE:

Interesting. So SDAs believe God is three beings. So what really do we mean by 'God'?

If each being is fully God, then this would be polytheism - a false religion.

[Gustave]

Interesting. So SDAs believe God is three beings. So what really do we mean by 'God'?

Yes, & GodheaD...

...I was really hoping someone other than me would bring up this identical question.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs, with commentary

John 8:42

Jesus said unto them,

If God were your Father, ye would love me: for

I proceeded forth and came from God; (His first birth as God's Only Begotten Son)

neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (His second birth at Bethlehem).

My posts in answer disappear so I'll just give a brief one again.

His first birth was at Bethlehem, He wasn't a born or created being in the first place.

Another thing is He proceeded and came from the Father, He said so Himself and that the Father sent Him.

Another thing, since He proceeded forth from the Father shows the Father gave of his own Substance as Jesus is able to rightly state He too is the Eternal pre-existent one and also the FIRST! Our Redeemer and the Father have to be ONE!

At Bethlehem then He went into the body prepared for him, the Man Jesus Christ, who then was Emmanuel, God with us. Yes for the Father was in Him. That is the Father's Substance He gave for our Redeemer.

Is not that very clear? I hope so as how else could it be? His Substance is Spirit because Jesus said so.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE: "The Father possessed Him of His own pre-existent substance."

Agree:

"The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.” The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, “Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?” ST.1893-11-20, paragraph 5

[Gustave]

I'm pretty sure that "It Is Written" television is SDA...

...I just found this video and thought they actually did an EXCELLENT job.

...In answering the anti-Trinitarian theology.

Enjoy...

...Now no complaining here - this is an SDA production.

http://www.itiswritten.com/television#episodes/1080

[Gibs]

One thing to remember about this is that before Bethlehem Jesus may have been called a son. But now think, does the Son come first or the Father? So for Jesus to be the first as He states and He does not lie, He of necesity had to proceed from the Father of the Father's own substance as EGW has stated. He was not born a son at that time or was He a created Being. In either of those two cases He couldn't be the first as the Father also is.

There is just one answer, He and the Father are one, of the same substance. Not another God, But THE GOD. The Father made of Himself our Redeemer and sent Him and at Bethlehem dwelt in the body of the man Jesus Christ, making Him God with us.

Since God is Spirit and that is not imposible for Him as really nothing is imposible to Him to do in righteousness.

But remember there is coming a time and not too far distant, an outstanding revelation, read carefull and thoughtfully,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When it is all done and wrapped up, then again the Father may be all in all!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

I'm pretty sure that "It Is Written" television is SDA...

...I just found this video and thought they actually did an EXCELLENT job.

...In answering the anti-Trinitarian theology.

Enjoy...

...Now no complaining here - this is an SDA production.

http://www.itiswritten.com/television#episodes/1080

This video explains two doctrines: (1) Nicea doctrine; and (2) Arius doctrine.

Did the the pioneers (James White, J.H. Waggoner, J.N. Andrews, Ellen White, E.J. Waggoner, A.T. Jones, Joseph Bates) of the SDA church accept the Nicea doctrine, the Arius doctrine or a doctrine different from either???

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I'm pretty sure that "It Is Written" television is SDA...

...I just found this video and thought they actually did an EXCELLENT job.

...In answering the anti-Trinitarian theology.

Enjoy...

...Now no complaining here - this is an SDA production.

http://www.itiswritten.com/television#episodes/1080

This video explains two doctrines: (1) Nicea doctrine; and (2) Arius doctrine.

Did the the pioneers (James White, J.H. Waggoner, J.N. Andrews, Ellen White, E.J. Waggoner, A.T. Jones, Joseph Bates) of the SDA church accept the Nicea doctrine, the Arius doctrine or a doctrine different from either???

I think you forgot to mention a few of the early shakers of SDAism there Dr. Waite...

...The Pioneers ( to include all you mentioned ) categoricaly rejected Nicea.

...& in so doing rejected the Trinity.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Interesting. So SDAs believe God is three beings.

The Hebrew "elohim" is PLURAL, and is translated into the English "God" which is singular.

Gen 1:26 "Let us make(Heb. plural) man in our [Heb. plural] image [Heb. singular]...

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE: I think you forgot to mention a few of the early shakers of SDAism there - Dr. Waite...

...The Pioneers ( to include all you mentioned ) categoricaly rejected Nicea.

Did the pioneers and founders of the SDA church accept a doctrine which includes the Father, Son and holy spirit that was different from both the Nicea doctrine and the Arius doctrine?

I believe that they rejected the Nicea doctrine and also rejected the Arius doctrine (teaches that God's son was created).

[Gibs]

Gerry Isa though makes it clear about the elohim,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The King if Israel, the Father and His Redeemer, Yahweh of Host and then states "besides me there is no elohim". Note! "besides Me!"

The two brought to our attention are actually one, the Redeemer wasn't born here and He wasn't created, so where did He come from?

Jesus the only one who can tell us did just that,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

He is not a son as a son can't be first, He is not created, as one created cannot be first.

There is only one possibility left, He and the Father are one of the same substance. Since He, Jesus was brought out of the Father then the Father was first in time.

So how is it Jesus then can actually be the first? Simple, The Father needed a redeemer who had to be God as He is the only one there is, so He brought Him out of Himself. Not another God in one sense but in another sense an elohim. He then was sent forth of Himself to do the creation and if necessary do the Job of Redeeming, which He now has almost accomplished.

It is now necessary I post the following verses again as they explain His mission well and how it ends that the Father is all in all again when completed. - - A real Revelation!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

But not all it sounds like from Jesus will see it,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Yes He has revealed it to us!

That I find sums it up!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.