skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 We are to get the proper understanding of the statements you quoted by comparing them with the statements I have just quoted. In other words, the "obscure" statements you have quoted are to be interpreted by the clear ones I have quoted. sky *The statements u quoted are not obscure to me but the way you interpret them to us make them look like obscure statements, but viewed in the light of the clear statements I have just quoted, the ones you quoted can no longer be made to be obscure ones. :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gibs Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Sky, I am not saying the Father and the man Jesus are the same person, but that Jesus can say "I and my Father are one" because of the fact The Father dwells in Him. Jesus Christ then is the 2'nd person of the Godhead as the Father is in Him, Divinity covered with His Humanity, Yes He is God with us. The Holy Spirit is God and not another person but the one and only God there is. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
troyjs Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Gibs, Are you a Unitarian or a Modalist? Do you believe that The 3 persons of the Trinity are 3 modes which God reveals Himself? kind regards Quote “Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ”---John Calvin
Gibs Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Troyjs, Yahweh the one and only God the Father comes to us by Spirit and primarily He is Spirit and His Spirit is not another person or God. He came to us in His Son, the man Jesus Christ born of Mary, whom was the body prepared for him, Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Yahweh the Father with us, Emmanuel, meaning God with us. Yes it was the Father in Jesus Christ, He is not another God but is the person He came in covered with His humanity. Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. If He, Yahweh the Father were to appear to us in His direct Presence we would be consumed. For sure the scripture 1 Jo 5:7 is correct, 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. There is not a trinity, you could say two persons in the Godhead The Father and His Son and that is it. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh, Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus above all ought to know! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Moderators Gerr Posted June 19, 2012 Moderators Posted June 19, 2012 Gibs, Are you a Unitarian or a Modalist? Do you believe that The 3 persons of the Trinity are 3 modes which God reveals Himself? kind regards I doubt you will ever get a straight answer from Gibs. Quote
Gibs Posted June 19, 2012 Posted June 19, 2012 Gerry troyjs sure did get a straight answer. I am neither of what he posted and I explained how it is. You should be able to see it too. It is clear enough for me that I would not know how to make it clearer. I know it don't meet your stance but that is beside what I find and posted. If you have a better answer let's see it with the scripture to show it is true. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
troyjs Posted June 19, 2012 Posted June 19, 2012 Gibs, We all agree that Jesus is not another God, distinct or separate from the Father. Rather, we affirm that when Jesus prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself. Rather, we affirm that when it is said that the Logos was with God, it is not saying that the Logos was with Himself. Also, when we say that Jesus is the Son of God, we do not say that Jesus is the Son of Himself. When Jesus seeks to abide with the Father, He is not talking about abiding with Himself. When Jesus refers to the Spirit as 'He', Jesus doesn't actually mean 'Me' -- Jesus really means 'He', ie., distinct from Jesus. When we say that the Father is the Father of the Son, we do not say that the Father is the Father of Himself. When we say that Christ is the mediator between God and Man, we do not say that Jesus is between Himself and Man. Rather, We say that from eternity the Word already existed, and that the Word was in union with the Father, and the Word was by nature Deity. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Rather, When Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, He was not talking to Himself. What reason is there, to believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person? There are reasons to believe that they are actually distinct from one another. Unless there is reason to believe that they are actually and objectively non-distinct from each other, then I don't see any reason to believe that your position is correct. kind regards ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com Quote “Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ”---John Calvin
skyblue888 Posted June 19, 2012 Posted June 19, 2012 A bid Amen to that. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gibs Posted June 19, 2012 Posted June 19, 2012 troyjs, You still don't get it, even though the father was in Him He still prayed and reached the Father in Heaven as we do. The Father vested in Him was to some extent separated from the Father in Heaven. He had all this Power in Him but He was to take no power but we can have to overcome. He did it exactly like we must do. If He had of reached in and took His Divine power fully and overcome He would have destroyed the plan of Salvation. He became one of us to overcome from where we are to show us it could be done. Now His Divine Nature in you, you are equal to the power He took to overcome sin, the Devil and all the world and it's evils. You ask, "What reason is there, to believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person?" The Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Father is in Jesus Christ another person, a man but the one God also. He was Humanity and Divinity combined. Two persons only in the Godhead, the Holy Spirit is God! Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
troyjs Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Gibs, It seems that your position is that there are 2 persons in the Trinity -- Father and Holy Spirit, and that Jesus Christ is a combination of the Father, and a man. My question to you, is: In John 6, where Jesus said He is the bread come down from heaven, and that the bread that He would give the life for the world was His flesh -- did the 'man' part of Jesus come down from heaven? And, is it the Father who gives us His flesh? kind regards Quote “Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ”---John Calvin
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2012 Moderators Posted June 20, 2012 ...The total of the Son of God and man died. But how could Deity be killed? Impossible! You and Allen Stump need to get together as he can't get it in his mind to realize Deity cannot and did not die. .... Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2012 Moderators Posted June 20, 2012 ...Two persons only in the Godhead, the Holy Spirit is God! Yes, Gibs, the Holy Spirit is indeed God but the Holy Spirit is not the same Person as the Father, just as Christ is not the same Person as the Father. All Three of these divine Persons are the same God, however. Remember, we're not talking about Gods but God. As Ellen White said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit "are three living Persons of the heavenly trio." The entire quote: "The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1} Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2012 Moderators Posted June 20, 2012 The Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Father is in Jesus Christ another person, a man but the one God also. He was Humanity and Divinity combined. Consider the following important statements: Quote: Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2} He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3} From Everlasting.--While God's Word speaks of the humanity of Christ when upon this earth, it also speaks decidedly regarding His pre-existence. The Word existed as a divine being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. From everlasting He was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted Him, were to be blessed. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God." Before men or angels were created, the Word was with 616 God, and was God.--Review and Herald, April 5, 1906. {Ev 615.4} Isn't it obvious from the above quote that Jesus Christ existed as a seperate and distinct "divine being" in heaven prior to coming here as a man? Ellen White makes it plain here that Christ was God yet He was not the Father. Christ could not have been "with God" and been God Himself at the same time. When John 1: 1 (last clause) says that "the word was God," it is telling us that the Word was of the same nature and substance as the God who is named in the second clause. "With God" describes a very close, intimate relationship that only a living, distinct Being can have with another like Himself. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Amen again John. More great quotes. sky :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
troyjs Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 John, Gibs is not an Adventist, so he will not be persuaded by the words of EGW. Thanks for words of edification though. Gibs, Please answer my question: My question to you, is: In John 6, where Jesus said He is the bread come down from heaven, and that the bread that He would give the life for the world was His flesh -- did the 'man' part of Jesus come down from heaven? And, is it the Father who gives us His flesh? kind regards Quote “Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ”---John Calvin
Nic Samojluk Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 John317 wrote: “Yes, Gibs, the Holy Spirit is indeed God but the Holy Spirit is not the same Person as the Father, just as Christ is not the same Person as the Father.” Sorry to disagree! Jesus and his Father are distinct persons, but the Holy Spirit is not the third member of the alleged Trinity. When Jesus promised to send the Comforter to his disciples in John 14, he was referring to himself. This is clearly evident from the text: 6And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Try reading this text without the Catholic Trinitarian dogma glasses. Jesus made this crystal clear when he said: “18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” The basic difference would be that his presence would be invisible. He said: “he lives with you and will be in you.” Who was living with them? It was Jesus. He was living with them in a visible, physical form, but now he would live spiritually in them. Jesus affirmed this truth twice. Look at verse 28: 28“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ The fact that he referred to himself in the third person should not surprise you. When talking to the Samaritan woman, and on other occasions he used the third person as well to refer to himself: “Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."” [John 4:26] When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground. [John 18:6] “I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go." [John 18:8] "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He.” [John 13:19] Then you appealed to Mrs. White: “As Ellen White said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit "are three living Persons of the heavenly trio." The entire quote: "The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}” It seems evident to me that you constantly need the Ellen White crutch in order to provide support for your belief in the Trinity doctrine. I do believe that Mrs. White was God’s instrument in building our Adventist community. Nevertheless, I give priority to what the Bible teaches. Quote
Gibs Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Nic, I don't but go to the scripture to show there is but one Deity. Hear Jesus on the Holy Spirit. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. He MUST be worshipped in Spirit because He is Spirit and in Truth because error is not acceptable. He must not come to us in His Full Glory as He is a consuming fire and we would be consumed. So He reaches us by His Spirit and by His indwelling in Jesus Christ. There just plainly is no God beside Yahweh the Father and He Then to Redeem us came in Jesus Christ. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 1 John 5:7 is correct, can't be refuted! 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. One is not three! Yah. the Father speaks by the Word and by His Holy Spirit. We can reach the Father in Heaven only through His Word Jesus Christ. He alone is our connection to Him. The Father's vestment of Himself in Christ is for Him, Jesus to do the work of Redeemer and to completley end the reign of sin and subdue all for the Father. It is nearly done of the part here on earth. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
skyblue888 Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 “As Ellen White said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit "are three living Persons of the heavenly trio." The entire quote: "The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}” It seems evident to me that you constantly need the Ellen White crutch in order to provide support for your belief in the Trinity doctrine. I do believe that Mrs. White was God’s instrument in building our Adventist community. Nevertheless, I give priority to what the Bible teaches. Mic _____________ Mrs. White a "crutch"!!!!???? It seems to me that you, Nic, are asking us to take your uninspired interpretations of Scripture in regard to the trinity in the place of those inspired statements???!!! sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 "I am He" means "I am God" as shown in Isaiah 43:10,12. What does this have to do with showing that the Holy Spirit is not God in the fullest sense and therefore a different person of the Godhead? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
troyjs Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Gibs, Please answer my question: My question to you, is: In John 6, where Jesus said He is the bread come down from heaven, and that the bread that He would give the life for the world was His flesh -- did the 'man' part of Jesus come down from heaven? And, is it the Father who gives us His flesh? kind regards ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com Quote “Knowledge of the sciences is so much smoke apart from the heavenly science of Christ”---John Calvin
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 ...It seems evident to me that you constantly need the Ellen White crutch in order to provide support for your belief in the Trinity doctrine. I do believe that Mrs. White was God’s instrument in building our Adventist community. Nevertheless, I give priority to what the Bible teaches. You misunderstand why I quote Ellen White. First of all, this is an Adventist forum where it is OK to quote the prophet of God. Second, and most important, I don't quote her in order to prove a doctrine; I quote her for one reason only: because it's important for SDAs to understand what Ellen White believed and wrote. After all, she was a prophet of God. She wrote the truth in plain English that needs no translation. If a person who claims to accept Ellen White as God's instrument doesn't accept it after they read it in her writings, they won't accept it from anyone irrespective of the evidence. QUESTION: Do you believe Ellen White wrote contrary to the Scriptures when it comes to the teaching regarding the Godhead/Trinity? I don't believe she did. I believe she agrees with the Scriptures on this. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2012 Moderators Posted June 21, 2012 Mrs. White a "crutch"!!!!???? It seems to me that you, Nic, are asking us to take your uninspired interpretations of Scripture in regard to the trinity in the place of those inspired statements???!!! Excellent point. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted June 21, 2012 Members Posted June 21, 2012 You misunderstand why I quote Ellen White. First of all, this is an Adventist forum where it is OK to quote the prophet of God. Second, and most important, I don't quote her in order to prove a doctrine; I quote her for one reason only: because it's important for SDAs to understand what Ellen White believed and wrote. After all, she was a prophet of God. She wrote the truth in plain English that needs no translation. If a person who claims to accept Ellen White as God's instrument doesn't accept it after they read it in her writings, they won't accept it from anyone irrespective of the evidence. QUESTION: Do you believe Ellen White wrote contrary to the Scriptures when it comes to the teaching regarding the Godhead/Trinity? I don't believe she did. I believe she agrees with the Scriptures on this. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted June 21, 2012 Members Posted June 21, 2012 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Mrs. White a "crutch"!!!!???? It seems to me that you, Nic, are asking us to take your uninspired interpretations of Scripture in regard to the trinity in the place of those inspired statements???!!! Excellent point. I second that. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Nic Samojluk Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Gibs wrote: “Nic, I don't but go to the scripture to show there is but one Deity.” Yes, I have only one family, but it includes both myself and my wife. “1 John 5:7 is correct, can't be refuted! 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” Did you read the footnote found in the NIV version of the Bible? Footnotes: a 7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century) How can you rely on a text which cannot be found in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century? Quote
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