Is the doctrine of the Trinity logically incoherent?

[John317]

....Have you read the following passage recently?

Counsels to Writers and Editors, Page 35

Investigation of Doctrine. There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.

Ellen White clearly states that Adventist have held certain doctrines as truth which are in error.

Yes, excellent quote. I don't think anyone here is saying anything that contradicts what she said there.

[John317]

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The Father possessed Him of His own pre-existent substance.

What does "possessed" and "set up" mean in that context?

It is talking about Christ being "set up" and "possessed" for the purpose of redemption and the eternal covenant. It isn't referring to the beginning of Christ's existence.

[John317]

Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person?

Ellen White says plainly that the Holy Spirit is "a divine person," and "the Third person of the Godhead." The Bible teaches the same thing. Do you disgree with Ellen White's statement?

The Bible evidence is that the Holy Spirit is a person, just as God the Father is a person. The Holy Spirit "convicts," "teaches," "leads," "guides," "speaks," "wills," etc. These are all actions of persons.

[Gibs]

Yes the Holy Spirit is a person for sure, read,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That is a plain and simple statement not hard to reckon with

The Holy Spirit is God and not another God but the one and only God, the very person of God. He is Omnipresent.

Spirits are real, Angels are real, can be seen but not by us yet as our eyes are not opened for that yet.

Jesus proceeded and came forth of the Father, of His substance,

"The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

That being the only way Jesus could truthfully proclaim I am the "first". He in no other way could be the "first".

Now you can know the proper context of this short verse!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Yes, One Substance!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Yes the Holy Spirit is a person for sure, read,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That is a plain and simple statement not hard to reckon with

The Holy Spirit is God and not another God but the one and only God, the very person of God. He is Omnipresent.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, for sure. All SDAs believe the Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Spirit is not the same person as Christ or the Father, but He is indeed the same God. There is only one God. There are three divine Persons in the Godhead.

John 14 and 16 make this very clear. Jesus promised He would go to heaven and send "another Helper" to be with each of the believers. He said the Father would send the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't say the Father would come. Both Jesus and the Father come to us through the Holy Spirit, Christ's personal representative.

I do agree with you, then, that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent and is God.

Where we differ is that you evidently believe the Holy Spirit is an influence or power of God, whereas I believe the Holy Spirit is actually God Himself.

[Gibs]

Well, well John, the problem is you see too many Gods, there is but one, none other but He is known of. He was in Christ, He is the Father, He is the Holy Spirit!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, for sure. All SDAs believe the Holy Spirit is God.

The Holy Spirit is not the same person as Christ or the Father, but He is indeed the same God. There is only one God. There are three divine Persons in the Godhead.

John 14 and 16 make this very clear. Jesus promised He would go to heaven and send "another Helper" to be with each of the believers. He said the Father would send the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't say the Father would come. Both Jesus and the Father come to us through the Holy Spirit, Christ's personal representative.

I do agree with you, then, that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent and is God.

Where we differ is that you evidently believe the Holy Spirit is an influence or power of God, whereas I believe the Holy Spirit is actually God Himself.

I agree John, and here's how CJB buts John 4:24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly." Seems to me that its referring more to how to worship God, than saying that he is just a spirit.

[Gibs]

PK, What it is telling us is very plain, God is a Spirit and so must be worshipped in Spirit and also truth, anything less is not acceptable. This is why we are not to go and remain where error is being taught and forced home to the soul by well oiled orators of deceit.

Now He is omnipresent so our prayer doesn't have to ascend nowhere as He is here with me and you and all men knowing our thoughts and all even an accurate count of the hairs on your head.

We do as Jesus instructed, we pray in His, Jesus name as He is our mediator to approach the throne of grace.

No stumbling block there, it states He is a Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Well, well John, the problem is you see too many Gods, there is but one, none other but He is known of. He was in Christ, He is the Father, He is the Holy Spirit!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Sorry, Gibs. But you're giving just a lot of double-talk!

[Dr. Waite]

John 317 states: "The Bible evidence is that the Holy Spirit is a person, just as God the Father is a person. The Holy Spirit "convicts," "teaches," "leads," "guides," "speaks," "wills," etc. These are all actions of persons."

Does the Father convict? teach? lead? guide? speak? will?

Does the Father have the ability to be "omnipresent"?

If the answer is yes, could the Father and the Holy Spirit be one and the very same person and being?

[Gerr]

Does the Father convict? teach? lead? guide? speak? will?

Does the Father have the ability to be "omnipresent"?

If the answer is yes, could the Father and the Holy Spirit be one and the very same person and being?

No.

[Gibs]

The Answer is yes of course! Is the Father limited in any way. He entered Christ to be the greatest teacher of all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

The Answer is yes of course! Is the Father limited in any way. He entered Christ to be the greatest teacher of all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Father limited? The Father cannot die or cease to exist.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

The Answer is yes of course! Is the Father limited in any way. He entered Christ to be the greatest teacher of all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Father limited? The Father cannot die or cease to exist.

Yes of course, Jesus the man died the body prepared for Him to dwell in but Deity did not die.

(Matthew 28:5, 6; Luke 24:5, 6; 2:19; John 10:17, 18; Acts 13:32, 33.) When the voice of the angel was heard saying, "Thy Father calls thee," He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will. {5BC 1113.4}

"I am the resurrection, and the life." This language can be used only by the Deity. All created things live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of the Son of God. However able and talented, however large their capabilities, they are replenished with life from the Source of all life. Only He who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light and life, could say, "I have power to lay down my life, and I have power to take it again." All the human beings in our world take their life from Him. He is the spring, the fountain of life (MS 131, 1897). {5BC 1113.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE: "Yes of course, Jesus the man died the body prepared for Him to dwell in but Deity did not die."

The Father or Deity did not die. However, it was Jesus' immortal life which he laid down that he might take it up again.

Also, Jesus the man died, but humanity did not die.

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite, that is kind of a mixed up statement. Jesus was the body prepared that the father would come and dwell in. He was then the Father with us covered with humanity.

The man Jesus died, the father in Him did not. It was the Father in Him that raised the body before it reached corruption.

(John 1:1-3, 14; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:6, 8; 2:14-17; Hebrews 4:15). Deity Did Not Die.--Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. {5BC 1113.2}

This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness (Letter 280, 1904). {5BC 1113.3}

The Father gave of Himself, His substance in our Redeemer long before Bethlehem who would if needed be His Son born of woman, Mary and His name was to be Jesus. His deity vested in Him is to stay with that body until all is resolved.

1 Cor. 15:24-28 once it is.

God with us, Emmanuel had to have Blood to shed,

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE: "Dr. Waite, that is kind of a mixed up statement. Jesus was the body prepared that the father would come and dwell in. He was then the Father with us covered with humanity.

The man Jesus died, the father in Him did not. It was the Father in Him that raised the body before it reached corruption."

How could Jesus have given up or laid down his immortal life and yet the Father within him not die?

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess

it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world. {1SM 296.2}

Does the "Father within him" have life and intelligence?

"Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again." {3SP 203.2}

Then the "Father within him" remained with the body in the sepulcher and was asleep (dead).

[Gerr]

Dr. Waite, that is kind of a mixed up statement. Jesus was the body prepared that the father would come and dwell in. He was then the Father with us covered with humanity.

Jesus is the Father in a human body? So when the Father talked to Jesus after His baptism saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," He was talking to Himself?

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Dr. Waite, that is kind of a mixed up statement. Jesus was the body prepared that the father would come and dwell in. He was then the Father with us covered with humanity.

Jesus is the Father in a human body? So when the Father talked to Jesus after His baptism saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," He was talking to Himself?

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it (John 14:9-14). Jesus taught His disciples to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven…” (Matthew 6:9).

When one says of the Father in the human body of Jesus, we need to understand that the ears of that human body as a channel through which the Father listened to those coming to Jesus, the mouth and voice of that human body as the mouth and voice through which the Fathers spoke to us and the feet and arms of that human body as the feet used by God the Father to come to this world and the arms used to point us the way and to embrace us. However, Jesus did not teach us to pray to His human body but to pray to the Father in Heaven even though the Father manifested Himself through Jesus’ humanity.

We need to understand that there is difference between the terms “individuality” and God. It is just like ourselves. Using a human anatomic analogy we are made up of human organs including a central nervous system made up of left brain hemisphere, right brain hemisphere, a cerebellum and a peripheral nervous system. However, when communicate with each other we see each one of us as a single entity; we don’t make any distinction if what we say or do originated from our left or right side of our brain hemispheres or how intact our cerebellum should be in order to make good and well coordinated physical movements.

FF

[Gibs]

He was talking to the substance He had sent from Himself to be our Redeemer. They are of His, the Fathers one substance. He was talking to OUR and His Redeemer a gift of Himself to man. read Isa 44:6.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

"God was in Christ", can only be the Father, none other left!

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

How else could it be true Jesus could proclaim "I am the first" and that He is the eternal pre existent one.

Only one way, He was indwelled by the fathers substance. One God scripture states, "beside me there is no God I know not any".

Jesus it looks like returns it when His task is completed,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father then is all in all.

Not hard to see. Truly, - Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Well, well John, the problem is you see too many Gods, there is but one, none other but He is known of.

"One God" does not mean a single person. The word "one" is translated from the Hebrew word "echad," the plural form of the word. It's the same word that is used in Genesis 2 where it speaks of two individuals---Adam and Eve-- being "one flesh." It's also the kind of "one" which Jesus used in speaking of His Father and He as "one." It isn't the mathematical "1" but the "one" of unity.

Here's an example of how Ellen G. White uses the term "one": "Thus will be answered the prayer of Christ that His disciples might be one even as He is one with the Father. For this oneness every truly converted heart will be striving." {FLB 343.2}

[skyblue888]

"Christ is one with the Father, but Christ and God are two distinct personages." 5 B.C.1148.

"The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. In mind, in purpose, in character, they are one, but not in person." Ibid.

It is the same between Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit as shown in 1 John 5:7.

sky

[John317]

[skyblue888]

:)

[John317]

Does the Father convict? teach? lead? guide? speak? will?

Does the Father have the ability to be "omnipresent"?

If the answer is yes, could the Father and the Holy Spirit be one and the very same person and being?

The Father convicts and teaches, ec., through the Holy Spirit. Christ said that it was the Holy Spirit, "another Helper" of the same kind as Christ, who would guide and teach us. He did not say the Father would come Himself personally in order to guide and teach Christ's followers.

Yes, the Father speaks and wills, and He is a person. Those are things that only persons are able to do.

The Father is Omnipresent through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not have a form or a body, whereas both the Father and Son have forms and a body. Christ has a glorified, material, human body.

Both the Father and the Son are in the heavenly sanctuary. The Son and the Father come to us and are in us through Christ's personal representative, the Holy Spirit.